The music theory thread! For aspiring musicians and composers

[Master.D.]

Hey all,

When it comes to music theory I know my stuff as I have spent a lot of time getting private theory lessons and composing and what not.

So I thought, if anyone here has any questions about scales, keys, four part harmony, counterpoint, or anything they could ask me and I will try my hardest to answer!

Cheers,
Gav

[D-Bloc]

hmm im not sure if i can ask this properly, but, is writing music pretty calculated?

What I mean by that is, could you say give a computer certain parameters to follow when choosing what notes and scale to use, and it could output random music that is decently audibly appealing?

In other words, I guess I am asking are there any distinct formulas for good music?

[Master.D.]

hmm im not sure if i can ask this properly, but, is writing music pretty calculated?

What I mean by that is, could you say give a computer certain parameters to follow when choosing what notes and scale to use, and it could output random music that is decently audibly appealing?

In other words, I guess I am asking are there any distinct formulas for good music?

Oh most definitely!

A lot of 20th/21st century music - whilst one might not consider to be 'audibly appealing' (at least not me, I've never really been a fan of some of it) - uses a technique known as a "tone row" which is where the 12 notes of the standard chromatic scale are selected in a completely random order and thusly make the foundation of the composition's melody.

Other than that, it would be very easy to manipulate a computer into composing audibly appealing, or 'tonal', music. Throughout history keys in music have been assigned an order of importance for each note in aforementioned key and a basic guideline for where and when and how each note should be interpreted and/or played. Having said this, I think it is very likely that such a machine could be created that could simply make tonal melodies and could even provide adequate harmonies to accompany their melodies.

The thing is, when it comes to writing music if you want to write tonal and pleasing music a lot of the time you sort of have to follow certain formulae or "rules" to produce 'good' music.

Hope that helped!
Gav

[D-Bloc]

Thanks! very interesting repped!

[Master.D.]

Thanks! very interesting repped!

Anytime buddy..

Actually, I wouldn't mind some rep haha, someone negged me because I happened to mention that I smoke cigarettes lol =/ and I lost almost 200 rep for that haha.

Any other questions?

[D Incorporated]

The subject interests me greatly, especially as an aspiring composer, but I have yet to get any formal education in it. I listen to a huge variety of music for the majority of my days, so I understand a lot of things at an "instinctual" level, even if I don't know what they're officially called. People say I'm a natural at some things, but I don't know what they are; I've just developed a huge knack for what sounds "right" and "wrong".

So if you don't mind me asking a general question - what exactly does music theory encompass? My first thought on hearing "music theory" is "haven't they tested the theories to see if they're verifiable or not?" I see three successive music theory classes at my local community college, and I'm considering taking them, but they give essentially no overview of what they'll be covering other than "composition" and I have no way of getting in touch with the instructor, so I'm wondering what your progression through your lessons was like and if it was a standard progression or not. It would help in deciding my upcoming class schedules.

And if it makes a difference, my primary area of expertise when it comes to composing and playing instruments is percussion, thus I was hoping to learn more about melody and harmony from the classes.

[Jem777]

No formal theory lessons, what little I've learned was through reading and through my mentor. Learning theory sure helps with writing your own music, but I took a learn and forget approach to music though.

[Master.D.]

The subject interests me greatly, especially as an aspiring composer, but I have yet to get any formal education in it. I listen to a huge variety of music for the majority of my days, so I understand a lot of things at an "instinctual" level, even if I don't know what they're officially called. People say I'm a natural at some things, but I don't know what they are; I've just developed a huge knack for what sounds "right" and "wrong".

That's a very good tool to have!

Over time, composers defined the 'norm' for music, and this is what is utilized in most classical music, pop music and even in children's songs thus leading us to grow up exposed to these norms and thus giving us an ear to determine what is and what isn't good in music.

So if you don't mind me asking a general question - what exactly does music theory encompass? My first thought on hearing "music theory" is "haven't they tested the theories to see if they're verifiable or not?" I see three successive music theory classes at my local community college, and I'm considering taking them, but they give essentially no overview of what they'll be covering other than "composition" and I have no way of getting in touch with the instructor, so I'm wondering what your progression through your lessons was like and if it was a standard progression or not. It would help in deciding my upcoming class schedules.

When they say 'music theory', they don't particular mean it in the way that you say it.. "haven't they tested the theories to see if they're verifiable or not?".. theory is just a term used to separate the practical aspect of music (i.e. playing or aural) from the written aspect of music.

Music theory has benefits towards appreciation of music, composition of music, improvisation and general understanding of music.

Rudimentary theory covers topics such as all the keys, scales, modes, time signatures, chords, intervals and basic harmony.
More advanced theory covers four part harmony (harmonising a melody using four voices), counterpoint (two or more melodies that go in different directions), more advanced chord ideas and several other things.

When it comes to composing, it helps to have an idea of how intervals work and how to write harmonies and counterpoint because their are rules to certain harmony and counterpoint (well, not so much rules but guidelines).

Also, as you learn more and more theory you start to learn about things like "what note should I put here?", "how should I resolve this chord progression", "I want this piece to sound adventurous so what mode should I write it in?", etc.

And if it makes a difference, my primary area of expertise when it comes to composing and playing instruments is percussion, thus I was hoping to learn more about melody and harmony from the classes.

You should most definitely take the classes!
And if not, just learn theory from books or online.

The thing that I love about theory most is that it has made me appreciate both the complexities and simplicities of music that I listen to.

Gav

[MetaPhysical]

Oh man... the things I want to ask.

In the middle of the summer I became interested in music again, picked up a new instrument (violin), and have fallen in love with it. Ever since I have been on a quest not only to improve my technical abilities, but to learn musical theory in general to accelerate my progress and to help me one day with improvisation (not just for the violin either).

My hunger for knowledge on musical theory is so vast that I don't think I can ask a specific question.

The only thing I would ask is could you send me, or even post for everyone a comprehensive reading list, of resources, be it books, websites, whatever, to feed my interest.

Specially for composition. My main goal is to improvise, so knowing how the make things fit would be awesome.

Also seeing as how you seem to be an accomplished student of music, you surely would know some things to help with ear training (something I also want to learn more quickly).

[Hesh]

How long does it take to master music theory?

[Master.D.]

Oh man... the things I want to ask.

In the middle of the summer I became interested in music again, picked up a new instrument (violin), and have fallen in love with it. Ever since I have been on a quest not only to improve my technical abilities, but to learn musical theory in general to accelerate my progress and to help me one day with improvisation (not just for the violin either).

My hunger for knowledge on musical theory is so vast that I don't think I can ask a specific question.

The only thing I would ask is could you send me, or even post for everyone a comprehensive reading list, of resources, be it books, websites, whatever, to feed my interest.

Specially for composition. My main goal is to improvise, so knowing how the make things fit would be awesome.

Also seeing as how you seem to be an accomplished student of music, you surely would know some things to help with ear training (something I also want to learn more quickly).

Hmm.. there aren't too many websites that I think are good for advanced theory, but for the primary stuff the best website you can go to is

http://www.musictheory.net/

That'll teach you the basics really well as it has diagrams and everything!

Other than that, for more advanced stuff you would probably have to ask me or a teacher for information or find books by DULCIE HOLLAND or G.D. SPEARITT (I think that's it, it might be a slightly different name I can't remember at the moment). Dulcie is the best, as she has these great books that cover each grade of theory up to the highest level.

You can't really read how to compose, it has to come with theory knowledge or in a composition class/course that you take up..

As for ear training, I only know of sites that test how good your ear is, those are musictheory.net as I listed and also

http://www.good-ear.com/

Other than that, you may have to get lessons to build up your ears. Otherwise, if you have a keyboard once you learn how to construct scales/chords/intervals you can always play them on the keyboard to build up your ears' ability to recognise different types of scales intervals or chords.

Gav

[Master.D.]

How long does it take to master music theory?

It would take years and years to 'master' music theory, but to get to an adequate level it can take anywhere from four or so months to a year or more.

For me it took about four or five months to get to the level that I am now which I consider to be advanced.

Gav

[Poofy Nesbit]

My theory is this:

I watched a Three Tenors DVD the other day at work - Pavarotti did this piece after Placido Domingo, don't ask me what it was called because I am yet to speak Italian - but it sent shivers down my spine, literally. Thus, Pavarotti kicked ass.

[Kaptn Krunch]

What are tri-tone substitutions?

[MetaPhysical]

Hmm.. there aren't too many websites that I think are good for advanced theory, but for the primary stuff the best website you can go to is

http://www.musictheory.net/

That'll teach you the basics really well as it has diagrams and everything!

Other than that, for more advanced stuff you would probably have to ask me or a teacher for information or find books by DULCIE HOLLAND or G.D. SPEARITT (I think that's it, it might be a slightly different name I can't remember at the moment). Dulcie is the best, as she has these great books that cover each grade of theory up to the highest level.

You can't really read how to compose, it has to come with theory knowledge or in a composition class/course that you take up..

As for ear training, I only know of sites that test how good your ear is, those are musictheory.net as I listed and also

http://www.good-ear.com/

Other than that, you may have to get lessons to build up your ears. Otherwise, if you have a keyboard once you learn how to construct scales/chords/intervals you can always play them on the keyboard to build up your ears' ability to recognise different types of scales intervals or chords.

Gav

lol, thats the site I have been using. It is a good one, and I am almost through most of the lessons.

Maybe you can suggest a text that would be a level up from that?

I will also check out those authors you mentioned.

Thanks man.

[SecondsOut]

if an ostinato is a repeating bass rhythm, then are vamps also considered ostinatos?

[Master.D.]

What are tri-tone substitutions?

A tritone substitution is a technique used primarily in jazz where a dominant seventh chord is replaced by the dominant seventh chord made on the note a tritone away from the original note.

For example:
Instead of C7, we use Gb7 and here's why:

The main reason that dominant seventh chords are used to resolve to the tonic is because they contain two notes that cause a dissonance (by making a tritone) and then resolve to the two strongest notes of the tonic chord (the tonic itself and the third) e.g.

C7 has C E G Bb, the E and Bb make a tritone interval and resolve so that the E moves up by a half step to F and the Bb moves down by a half step to A.

The thing about tritones is that if you invert them then the distance between the two notes stays the same, it is the only interval that does this.

Therefore if we take the notes of Gb7 we get Gb Bb Db Fb, the Bb and the Fb enharmonically (meaning same note sound, different note name) make the same tritone as the C7 and thusly can resolve in a similar way.

Chord progression example:
Gmin7-Gb7-Fmaj

This is used extensively in jazz music because it provides a chromatic movement to the tonic which is then employed in your 'walking bass line'.

Hope that helped?
Gav

[Master.D.]

if an ostinato is a repeating bass rhythm, then are vamps also considered ostinatos?

Yes they could be considered that.

However an ostinato is not strictly a repeating bass rhythm. It can be part of any voice and can be melodic, harmonic or rhythmic as long as it is repeated.

A vamp is known as the "jazz equivalent of an ostinato" and vice-versa.

Hope that helped
Gav

[thepapowski]

whats the best computer program for creating music (think bruce faulconer)

[Master.D.]

whats the best computer program for creating music (think bruce faulconer)

I don't get the bold part?

Anyway, the best computer program out at the moment has to be Sibelius 4. It has the most realistic sounding instruments I have ever heard. Ever. I will show you if you like?

Sibelius is quite expensive, though.

Other than that, Sibelius 3 is really good too. If you don't want to fork out much money then you can always get a program like.. shit I forgot what it is called, I will find out for you soon!

But yeah, if you can get Sibelius you MUST!
Haha
Gav

[Briangumble]

How did you get private lessons and how much did they cost?

[Master.D.]

How did you get private lessons and how much did they cost?

I did music as a class in high school, and my teacher was really nice and offered to tutor me in my spare time.. so in other words they were free XP

If you aren't at a school or uni I'm not sure how you would get theory lessons, sorry mate..

Gav

[SecondsOut]

do you know of any free music-making programs on the web?

[Master.D.]

do you know of any free music-making programs on the web?

Hmm, a friend of mine sent it to me so I'm not sure if you can download it for free off of the internet or not, but there's a program called "Finale 2006" which is good!

Otherwise the only programs I could think of would be programs like GuitarPro and PowerTab Editor, but you would need to have a pretty good knowledge of where notes fall on the guitar to work those programs fluently.

Gav

[GymGuy44]

if anyoen has a good idea, to understadn musical keys, or guitar keys im listening lol

[Master.D.]

if anyoen has a good idea, to understadn musical keys, or guitar keys im listening lol

Guitar keys = Musical keys..

When you say "understand", what exactly do you mean? Are you asking how to figure out what notes are in what keys? If that is the case let me know and I will help you out.

Gav

[Master.D.]

Bump =(

[Hesh]

I did music as a class in high school, and my teacher was really nice and offered to tutor me in my spare time.. so in other words they were free XP

If you aren't at a school or uni I'm not sure how you would get theory lessons, sorry mate..

Gav

Well there are private music lessons offered pretty much everywhere in the developed world. It is $12-15 per half hour for guitar lessons in the city i live (even more elsewhere I've heard). Plus there is stuff on the internet to read that can be helpful. And books in the library about music theory.

I've been trying to teach myself and it has been somewhat of a struggle. I wish I had taken lessons from a young age. Mad props to those who can read music and know a bit about theory. I'm trying to get there.

[MusclesMalone]

Guitar keys = Musical keys..

When you say "understand", what exactly do you mean? Are you asking how to figure out what notes are in what keys? If that is the case let me know and I will help you out.

Gav

well i will step in and say i also want to learn about keys, i dont even really know what a "key" is.

[Master.D.]

well i will step in and say i also want to learn about keys, i dont even really know what a "key" is.

A key is a term used to define a set grouping of seven notes that a piece of music will revolve around. The name given to a key is derived from the 'tonic' chord of the key, id est the chord that functional harmony dictates the piece will resolve to.

There are many easy ways to work out what notes fall in what keys, and I will go through them later if anyone is interested.

But say for example you wanted to know what notes were in the key of Ab major, you would use whatever method you wanted and derive that the notes comprising the key of Ab major include Ab Bb C Db Eb F G

Gav