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  1. #31
    Lights Out time baby! Lights0ut's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Good work

    Thank you very much for your hard work BernieD. I'm subscribing to this one.
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  2. #32
    Lookin at the Big Picture BernieD's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by pepingtom
    Aren't you suppose to stay at or below 5 pounds to effectively strengthen the rotator cuff and ligaments


    sorry, very old question that I totally missed...


    Well yes, you're right, if you've never trained your RCs before, or if they're injured, then you really should start out with 3 or 5 pounds...but as the RC's get stronger, you're gonna want to increase the weight. When I first did them 3 pounds was kinda rough (that was when my shoulders were kinda crappy). Shoulders still aren't 100%, but I can now do 8 pounds, so it's getting there hehe. As you get stronger, it only makes sense to increase the weight, just within reason of course. Each time should only be 1-2 pounds.

    And you're welcome LightsOut, glad you got something out of this
    The complete shoulder and RC injury thread, written by myself:
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=529968 (MASSIVE NEW UPDATE AS OF 10/6/05)

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  3. #33
    Registered User Ron Schwarz's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by KKFB140
    But what military presses do for EVERYBODY is:

    "Basically, when you press overhead, you’re driving the head of the humerus into the acromion. This causes impingement, specifically to the supraspinatus and long head of the biceps tendon."

    Shoulders are the most complex body part to workout safely.
    I disagree with the quote. If this were true, everyone would *eventually* get impingement, which isn't the case. I agree that you have to be *very* careful with the shoulders, and the thinking that, "my exercise and/or form is okay because I haven't been injured" is not the right way to look at it.

    You really *should* do overhead presses, not just to build muscle, but for shoulder health as well. It's a great exercise. My philosophy again, though is that certain types of OHPs lead to increased chance of injury.

    I don't recommend the behind neck press, as it has led to a LOT of problems in many people.

    There are also guys who have problems just doing a regular barbell press to the front. This is due to the wrist positioning - some are more likely to have problems. The solution is to do dumbbell pressing where the grip can be varied. IMO, the safest overhead press is the db OHP with palms facing each other. Least amount of stress on the tendons.

    Another big reason why guys have shoulder problems is they focus WAY too much on pressing movements and not on pulling. Strength imbalances lead to problems.

    EVERYONE should be doing an external rotator exercise like l-flyes for shoulder health.

    Good discussion, guys.
    “High-intensity training is going all-out, not almost all out. It is taking one set to one’s absolute limit, not almost to the limit. It is using whatever equipment that is available, not just a machine or group of machines. It is not the words of two or three men, but a commitment to work as hard as possible while in the gym without socializing, resting excessively between sets, or falling prey to the ‘this isn’t going to work so I’ll copy the star’ attitude”. - training guru, Dr. Ken Leistner
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  4. #34
    Registered User Ron Schwarz's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Lights0ut
    Thank you very much for your hard work BernieD. I'm subscribing to this one.
    I agree, Bernie should be applauded for taking the time to write the article.
    “High-intensity training is going all-out, not almost all out. It is taking one set to one’s absolute limit, not almost to the limit. It is using whatever equipment that is available, not just a machine or group of machines. It is not the words of two or three men, but a commitment to work as hard as possible while in the gym without socializing, resting excessively between sets, or falling prey to the ‘this isn’t going to work so I’ll copy the star’ attitude”. - training guru, Dr. Ken Leistner
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  5. #35
    conscientious jmonty's Avatar
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    thanks bernied. very informative. i didn't realize that going all the way down on pullups and benchpressing was that bad on the shoulders, even though it seems obvious now.
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  6. #36
    lightweight baby samos1's Avatar
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    After having shoulder problems and partial dislocation/minortear of the spinatus I'll be reading this thread closely.. need to strengthen my shoulders.

    As far as these exercises go, how often should they be performed.. will once a week suffice?
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  7. #37
    Train smarter, not harder $AJ's Avatar
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  8. #38
    Lookin at the Big Picture BernieD's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by samos1
    After having shoulder problems and partial dislocation/minortear of the spinatus I'll be reading this thread closely.. need to strengthen my shoulders.

    As far as these exercises go, how often should they be performed.. will once a week suffice?

    If you're rehabbing your shoulders from an injury, do one of the FULL routines, 4 exercises, that I've listed maybe 3-4x a week. If you're healthy, but think you have weak RC's, try it 2x a week. But no matter what you do, I'd ALWAYS recommend doing dumbbell internal and external rotations before ANY upper body workout, no matter what muscle you're working.

    So I guess what I'm saying is..if you're looking to strengthen your shoulders, 1x a week isn't quite enough.
    The complete shoulder and RC injury thread, written by myself:
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=529968 (MASSIVE NEW UPDATE AS OF 10/6/05)

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  9. #39
    Registered User deepakd's Avatar
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    One of the best threads

    Thanks a lot
    I also have small apin in my weak right hand shoulder
    I avoid all the exercises that casue the pain to come up
    I almst dont do any shoulder exercises like military press, side raise, db front raise at all

    But I do rotator db and some shoulder stretching exercise with miniscule weight

    thanks

    deepak
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  10. #40
    lightweight baby samos1's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BernieD
    If you're rehabbing your shoulders from an injury, do one of the FULL routines, 4 exercises, that I've listed maybe 3-4x a week. If you're healthy, but think you have weak RC's, try it 2x a week. But no matter what you do, I'd ALWAYS recommend doing dumbbell internal and external rotations before ANY upper body workout, no matter what muscle you're working.

    So I guess what I'm saying is..if you're looking to strengthen your shoulders, 1x a week isn't quite enough.
    Thanks bro. Yeah I'm rehabbing from poor shoulders. I'll try the routine 4x this week, I really want to get back into training.
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  11. #41
    Lookin at the Big Picture BernieD's Avatar
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    ^yea. I remember the first time I did it with DB's my shoulders felt waay better. Clicking was gone, ROM was better. Of course, I knew it didn't mean it was healed, but it meant I was headed in the right direction.
    The complete shoulder and RC injury thread, written by myself:
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=529968 (MASSIVE NEW UPDATE AS OF 10/6/05)

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  12. #42
    lightweight baby samos1's Avatar
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    I've got an proper understanding of internal/external and the cuban movements, all pretty basic.. but the one over at DC didn't have any pictures.. I don't quite understand it, any pictures to explain it better? Seems like a weird movement..
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  13. #43
    Lookin at the Big Picture BernieD's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by samos1
    I've got an proper understanding of internal/external and the cuban movements, all pretty basic.. but the one over at DC didn't have any pictures.. I don't quite understand it, any pictures to explain it better? Seems like a weird movement..
    If you scroll through the first 4 pages or so of the thread there will be pics. Here's an easy to describe it. Hold the broomstick in front of you, at about ab level, arms perfectly straight, not bent. This is how it should look when the stick is behind your back. Lift your arms up and over head, maintaining straight arms, then go behind the back until the stick reaches about mid-back level, or wherever you feel a real good stretch in the shoulders. But yea, there are pics in that thread.
    The complete shoulder and RC injury thread, written by myself:
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=529968 (MASSIVE NEW UPDATE AS OF 10/6/05)

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  14. #44
    flex Magazine June 2008 spirit3530's Avatar
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    Nice article bro. Well thought out and nice break from "teh best bicept workout" articles. Reps on the way.
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  15. #45
    lightweight baby samos1's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BernieD
    If you scroll through the first 4 pages or so of the thread there will be pics. Here's an easy to describe it. Hold the broomstick in front of you, at about ab level, arms perfectly straight, not bent. This is how it should look when the stick is behind your back. Lift your arms up and over head, maintaining straight arms, then go behind the back until the stick reaches about mid-back level, or wherever you feel a real good stretch in the shoulders. But yea, there are pics in that thread.
    With a stick, it's so difficult it actually hurt my shoulders. In the thread with the pics, the guy is using a rubber band type piece of equipment which allows rotation of the wrists to face the opposite ways as he turns.

    You start with palms pronated and once you're past your head hands should be supinated?
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  16. #46
    Lookin at the Big Picture BernieD's Avatar
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    ^yea, that sounds right.

    As for the stick hurting...it may be painful when you first try it. If it is, then don't do it. I don't know how severe your injury is. If your shoulders are so that they just hurt pretty bad in general, then the broomstick stretch will be bad for you. If you can only feel it if you move your shoulder a certain way, then just try and tough it, just be careful. This exercise shouldn't be pleasant, it does hurt a bit cuz your shoulders get a huge pump from doing it. Try doing 10 reps first and gradually increasing to 50.

    Also, are you sure that your stick is long enough? You could use a rubber band type piece of equipment, just make sure it's about 7 feet long (that's a little over 2 meters long). As you get stronger, you can move your hands closer together on the band to make it tougher. But yea, you need a long stick, cuz you'll be using a super wide grip for this. I think in the intensemuscle thread, there's a pic of a guy doing it with a stick...you'll see how long it is.
    The complete shoulder and RC injury thread, written by myself:
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  17. #47
    lightweight baby samos1's Avatar
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    Yeah it only hurts certain part of the movement.. I guess I just need to get used to it, and use a proper stick. The stick I was using was quite heavy, but only ~1.2-1.5m long.. so an extra long broomstick will do the job?
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  18. #48
    Lookin at the Big Picture BernieD's Avatar
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    ah, that's your problem. The stick should be light. Look at that pic again in the thread...the guy is just using a stick...weighs practically nothing. You don't want/need a heavy stick for this. And yea, 1.5m is too short. Try to find something at least 2m. A broomstick from a hardware store might do the job, or maybe you could find another store with something long like that...shouldn't be very expensive.
    The complete shoulder and RC injury thread, written by myself:
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  19. #49
    lightweight baby samos1's Avatar
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    I've been doing it without the stick, just rotating my arms.. I can feel my scap retracting as I do it, so I think I have the movement down - you're supposed to let the broom stick roll through your fingers and not be ridged, correct? Even though the pic provided states you should be maintaining tension (pulling the stick apart) as you do the movement..
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  20. #50
    Lookin at the Big Picture BernieD's Avatar
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    no, don't let the stick roll around in your fingers, keep a snug grip on the stick at all times. And remember to keep your arms straight AT ALL TIMES. The way your arms look when the stick is front of your body is the way they should look when the stick is overhead and behind you. If you can't keep your arms straight, then widen your grip. As you get better, narrow your grip inch by inch (on the stick I use I made markings so I can see the progress I've made..)
    The complete shoulder and RC injury thread, written by myself:
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=529968 (MASSIVE NEW UPDATE AS OF 10/6/05)

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  21. #51
    Registered User Bobyota's Avatar
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    Very nice article Bernie.

    I have some kinda shoulder problem myself. I had slight shoulder pain for a few months, then one day, it started hurting pretty bad (kinda sharp pain). Funny thing is this pain started about 24 hrs after a workout (di bi's and back that day, guess the back stuff could have put the strain on it). Didn't have pain during the workout or that night.

    So I took off 1 month and things felt better, but it still felt a little odd in my shoulder (pain was pretty light, more annoying than anything). Now I've been working out for about 6 weeks and trying to take out some excersises that could hurt and I also do stretches and some of these RC strengthening excersises.

    What I'd like to know is if some of you don't really have problems during the workout (or very minimal pain), but maybe more pain the next day or two. This happens to me, and I thought it may be out of the ordinary?
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  22. #52
    Lookin at the Big Picture BernieD's Avatar
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    nah, that's normal, to have more pain the next day. Same with soreness, you won't be sore after your workout, but the next day or day after that you will. You just don't want pain to be a constant thing. If your shoulder is always painful, then you need to be proactive about it.
    The complete shoulder and RC injury thread, written by myself:
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  23. #53
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    Cool. I'm not always in pain, just usually sore after working out and sometimes during. I work upper body 4 times a week, thought about combining some body parts just so I don't have so many days that could bring out the shoulder pain.
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    Lookin at the Big Picture BernieD's Avatar
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    you need to do a cardio warmup then stretch your shoulders a bit and do some of the DB internal and external rotations I was talking about in the article to warm up your shoulders. Then stretch your shoulders postworkout. If you keep just ignoring the soreness it will NEVER get better and you won't be able to lift them big weights for them big muscles lol.

    Look at it this way:

    Ignoring it is a temporary (easy) solution to a chronic problem.
    The complete shoulder and RC injury thread, written by myself:
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  25. #55
    make a change Diana Ball's Avatar
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    I tried the broomstick exercise... Am I doing this right-
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    Last edited by Diana Ball; 11-02-2005 at 08:00 AM.
    Dont waste your time!
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    I just can't picture how this broomstick stretch is being done, it doesn't sound possible. Anyone got a video or some pictures of it at individual stages?
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    Lookin at the Big Picture BernieD's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by GarethCheeseman
    I just can't picture how this broomstick stretch is being done, it doesn't sound possible. Anyone got a video or some pictures of it at individual stages?
    If you go to the intens************ thread, skim through the first 4 pages or so and you'll see a few pictures.

    Easy way to think of it. Hold the stick out in front of you with a wide grip, with STRAIGHT arms, so that the stick is at about bellybutton height. It should look like that, just reversed, when you go through the motion.

    Another way I could explain it. Hold it out in front of you, arms straight, at bellybutton height. never losing the straight arms (elbows locked) lift the stick up and back behind your head so that by the end of the movement your palms up instead of palms down. Then just slowly bring it back up over your head to the front.

    Use a wide grip, and you need a 7 foot long stick. Any shorter than that is too ineffective/tough to use.

    EDIT: In the IM.com thread, someone posted this link, if this doesn't explain it well then, I'm at a loss :

    http://www.crossfit.com/mt-archive2/000629.html
    Last edited by BernieD; 11-05-2005 at 11:04 PM.
    The complete shoulder and RC injury thread, written by myself:
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=529968 (MASSIVE NEW UPDATE AS OF 10/6/05)

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  28. #58
    You're a tiger, ARRRRGH! GarethCheeseman's Avatar
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    Thanks

    I wasn't holding it wide enough and was being too cautious with how far back I took it but doing it really slowly and carefully I can get it back that far.

    Thanks again.
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  29. #59
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    Well I can say my shoulder health has improved a bit.. still out of training which is depressing. I can still feel a bit of pain (supraspintus related) I've been out for 5 weeks now, roughly how long does a suprispintus injury take to heal? (I did it via partial dislocation of the shoulder during combat, but the chief cause would have been abusing the shoulders with many presses, lateral raises and just generally belting them..)
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    First let me give a big THANKS to Bernie for the GREAT article. I was looking for information about my shoulder problem, and this is perfect.

    One question, for the broomstick stretch, it says you are supposed to move the bar above your head and behind your back while keeping your arms straight? Personally, my arms only go to vertical without bending. Is this stretch still useful for me?
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