NO2 is bad for your circulatory system?

[DUILEE]

I've been using different NO2 products since they first came out a couple years back and I've always viewed them as one of the safer supplements on the market, basically the new creatine in terms of benefits vs. health risks. However, the other day a friend was telling me that a major side effect has started to show up as people have used NO2 for longer amounts of time. The logic behind this actually seems pretty valid. As everybody knows NO2 increases vascularity by dialating your blood vessels. The plus side to this is obviously bigger pumps, increased nutrient distribution to the muscles, better endurance, etc.. The problem though, is that constant dialation and contraction of the blood vessels weakens the walls of your arteries/veins and could cause long term damage to your circulatory system. It makes sense when you think about it. My question is, has anybody else ever heard of this problem with NO2?

[Chris95]

I'd like some feedback on this topic. I am an avid NO2 user, being that I respond to it very well.

[pu12en12g]

a major side effect has started to show up as people have used NO2 for longer amounts of time.

There are several possible side effects of continuous use.

[Flex500]

I bet you would be fine if you cycle it, I know many people who have taken it months, or even a year without stopping.

[freakie]

The process is pretty oxidative so I've always bumped up my anitoxidants while taking arginine.

[Flex500]

I have never had problems but don't stay on for more than 10 weeks or so

[Nagano21]

From Taking Pathophysiology last semester, I have learned a great deal about the body, and negative effects that happen to it. NO2 does dialate the vessels in the body, it does so by making the vessels have a very low tone to them, therefore allowing them to dialate to become bigger. However, I am not totally sure about long term effects of this. It would make sense to think that over time it would cause some sort of damage to the vessel walls. If indeed it were to cause damage, one of the main concerns would be Athersclerosis. This is the plaque that builds up and causes the vessels to become rigid, thus leading to Hypertension (High Blood Pressure) which is of great concer. You see one of the main reasons that plaques start to accumulate on the walls is from damage that has occured to them. So if NO2 products were to in fact cause damage to the walls after prolonged use, with out a doubt there are several health problems to be worried about. I def. would like to see this looked into by someone with greater knoweldge about its effects.

[Douger807]

My girlfriend is an inspiring doctor and just got into med school. She did a report this past year on L-Argnine and basically said the same thing. Because it increases the amount of blood in your circulatory system, it therefore increases the size of your veins and arteries. She also said that the number health issue is heart attacks. Because the body is pumping more blood then normal, the heart gets overworked.

Even with my girlfriends knowledge, I still take NO2. I cycle it though. Everytime I run out of a bottle of nitric boost (4 weeks), I take a good 1-2 weeks off. I seem to be fine. Just my .02.

[defdog99]

What about ECA ??

That contracts your veins...

Seems a strong heart would put undue pressure on the contracted veins and potentially tear the vein structure up...

Its all give and take...

[spearfisher]

Ok.........NO2 will dilate the vessels. You end up being hypotensive basically. That in itself is not a bad thing........unless of course your BP drops so low you pass out, which is highly unlikely unless you already had a low BP. You should know this prior to starting the stuff. Low blood pressure does not damage the vessels. High BP does. Stiffening of the vessels is caused by HIGH blood pressure or hypertension. Older people tend to have this if they have not kept their blood pressure under control. Risks of hardened arteries include stroke and heart attack. Increasing doses of Arginine can increase your triglycerides and LDL's (bad cholesterol) THIS can lead to atherosclerosis as someone said above. This increased Arginine level can also cause problems with pulmonary vasculature causing it to spasm and throw you into a cardiovascular crisis. Thiese are not good things to have happen.If your bp drops too much, the body see's it as shock and takes appropriate measures against it. I have been doing a little research on the subject as I am thinking about taking the stuff myself. Never have. I was a bodybuilder before I decided to seek a second degree. School has kept me out of the loop for over a year. I have also run across some info that suggests long term use of NO2 products may cause brain damage down the road. It has been linked to such things as Parkinson's disease. As I said, I am just now starting to research this subject so dont take my word for it. I think if you are going to take something, you should have researched it to start with. Taking ANY product long term without a break is less than intelligent though. Cycling can be safe but its all individualized and you need to take into account YOUR health and the health of your family b/c you inherieted some genetic factors from them. Honestly a lot of the stuff we take as bodybuilders can have some potential for harm. The biggest problem is we as bodybuilders tend to abuse it with the mindset IF this much is good, this much has to be better. There comes a time when that is NOT true. If anyone comes across any other good info relating to this, let me know. I have not decided if i want to get on this or not and knowledge is power.

[str8flexed]

I've been using different NO2 products since they first came out a couple years back and I've always viewed them as one of the safer supplements on the market, basically the new creatine in terms of benefits vs. health risks. However, the other day a friend was telling me that a major side effect has started to show up as people have used NO2 for longer amounts of time. The logic behind this actually seems pretty valid. As everybody knows NO2 increases vascularity by dialating your blood vessels. The plus side to this is obviously bigger pumps, increased nutrient distribution to the muscles, better endurance, etc.. The problem though, is that constant dialation and contraction of the blood vessels weakens the walls of your arteries/veins and could cause long term damage to your circulatory system. It makes sense when you think about it. My question is, has anybody else ever heard of this problem with NO2?

it's possible but very speculative. I doubt that arginine has a big enough effect on it to cause a major problem, but who knows. Probably have to ask a specialist.

What creatine health risks by the way?

[greyhair]

.... Because the body is pumping more blood then normal, the heart gets overworked.

.

Pumping more blood than normal results in a hear attack?

This reasoning does not sound right to me.
Heart attacks are typically caused by blockages in the arteries feeding the heart
(http://www.heartdiseaseonline.com/aa/aa070697.htm)
IMH(non-physican)O Dialated blood vessels will produce exaclty the opposite effect.
It will reduce the probability of a clot forming in the artery.

That is why smoking cigs are bad, they constrict blood vessels.

What you say may be true, but not for the reason you said.

Greyhair

[pu12en12g]

Warning: Trainwreck in progress...

For best results, read this before continuing.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=253454

[spearfisher]

Pumping more blood than normal results in a hear attack?

This reasoning does not sound right to me.
Heart attacks are typically caused by blockages in the arteries feeding the heart
(http://www.heartdiseaseonline.com/aa/aa070697.htm)
IMH(non-physican)O Dialated blood vessels will produce exaclty the opposite effect.
It will reduce the probability of a clot forming in the artery.

That is why smoking cigs are bad, they constrict blood vessels.

What you say may be true, but not for the reason you said.

Greyhair

I dont think it is that the body is pumpin more blood than normal but that the heart is overworked due to trying to correct the drop in blood pressure that NO2 will cause. This is due to the vasodilatation effect. I also read that when the blood shunts back to the main circ system that this can potentially overload the heart. The drop in BP can also trick the bod intothinking it is in shock which will naturally cause an increase in heart rate should that be the case. You will see arguements for and against. This is true of all things. Moderation and common sense is your best weapon. Use it! It doesnt cost a thing. As always research your product, educate yourself and then make the decision as to whether or not something is right for you. Note that this is not getting near the attention that creatine did when it first came out though. Or ephedra either for that matter. Sure ephedra is unsafe, if you take it wrong. Or you have any of the friggin problems that the WARNING LABEL says to avoid if you have these

[pu12en12g]

For those that don't like to click links:

Safety

Arginine supplements have been used safely in patients with heart disease in doses up to more than 20 grams per day.

[gtrain808]

I used to get some numbness of the hands when taking NO2. It freaked me out so I stopped taking it. A friend of mine had the same thing happen to him as well. Anyone else have this happen to them?

[DelToro]

clenbuterol works much the same way by dilating blood veins and allowing better circulation and it also makes people breathe better that's why it's a ashtma medication

"Whats creatine health risks by the way?"

I don't think there are any, except making your kidney work a lil harder and if you don't cycle it your body stops producing it

[Itadienekes]

My girlfriend is an inspiring doctor and just got into med school. She did a report this past year on L-Argnine and basically said the same thing. Because it increases the amount of blood in your circulatory system, it therefore increases the size of your veins and arteries. She also said that the number health issue is heart attacks. Because the body is pumping more blood then normal, the heart gets overworked.

Even with my girlfriends knowledge, I still take NO2. I cycle it though. Everytime I run out of a bottle of nitric boost (4 weeks), I take a good 1-2 weeks off. I seem to be fine. Just my .02.

I'm pretty sure Arginine doesn't increase the AMOUNT of blood in your circulatory system, as the amount of blood in your body is quite constant. The only effect it has (from what I read in articles, reviews, etc) is that of vasodilation. All that means is your blood-pipes have a bigger crossectional area which results in a greater mass flowrate which results in a decreased pipe-pressure in order to satisfy the laws of conservation of mass and energy...

Now the question is whether vasodilation by itself can be harmful to your body... I doubt it. Our bloodvessels dilate and restrict by themselves anyway throughout the day/week/month/year, depending on many external and internal factors that don't have to include Arginine (food, outside temperature, inflammation present in body, time of day, excercise, etc) ... So I highly doubt that the use of Arginine, which supposedly has a vasolidating effect, would produce damage beyond repair to our bloodvessels...

My 2 cents...
Bernardo

[number1sixerfan]

I think the true problem lies in the fact that we as bodybuilders will not even heed the dangers of supplements and most of the time will dismiss them as false. Everyone thinks that they are a doctor and just because NO helps in the gym, we could care less what it does to us later in life. The thing is when we are older and have Parkisans, heart problems, etc. then we won't know what to blame. It's a shame...

[DelToro]

I think the true problem lies in the fact that we as bodybuilders will not even heed the dangers of supplements and most of the time will dismiss them as false. Everyone thinks that they are a doctor and just because NO helps in the gym, we could care less what it does to us later in life. The thing is when we are older and have Parkisans, heart problems, etc. then we won't know what to blame. It's a shame...

Bwhahaha so all the old guys with parkisons and rheumatics and **** like that must have been hittin the NO stack like crazy back in the day

Don't get me wrong I get your point but trust me you are eating much more dangerous stuff in your everyday food

[Nagano21]

I highly doubt that taking an NO2 product is going to do anything to extreme for your BP. Whether it be lowering or obviously not highering it. NO2 products were actually invented in lou of heart medications. Such as how Viagra came about. Arganine is still used in patients with heart probs like said above, as well as in burn patients and other sorts. Like also said above, cycling anything is the best Idea rather than prolonged use.

[Nagano21]

I agree with Bernardo... Arganine doesnt do anything for amount of blood you have, and i dont think it does anything for the viscosity either.
What he said is true too about intrisic and extrinsic factors which contribute to how your vessels dialate or constrict. NO2 products are not going to always keep them dialated, so when your nervous system sends messages to constrict when need be they will.

[number1sixerfan]

Bwhahaha so all the old guys with parkisons and rheumatics and **** like that must have been hittin the NO stack like crazy back in the day

Don't get me wrong I get your point but trust me you are eating much more dangerous stuff in your everyday food

Please don't twist my words. And no you do not know for a fact that I intake much more dangerous stuff in my everyday foods. For one your diet is definitely not the same as mines, and you don't know for a fact how dangerous NO is. I'm not saying that it is bad for you, I am not a doctor. I am just saying that a lot of people who aren't specialist tend to just say "I don't think it will do any harm". Which people just don't know for fact that it's true.

[US_Ranger]

With this logic, lifting weights or exercising in general will cause your arteries to fail.

Think about it, all that lifting, dilating the blood vessels to get more blood to the muscles. You get a PUMP everytime you lift weights, with or without NO supplements. So this logic is flawed or everyone who ever exercises intensely would have crappy arteries.

[OneBetter]

I highly doubt that taking an NO2 product is going to do anything to extreme for your BP. Whether it be lowering or obviously not highering it. NO2 products were actually invented in lou of heart medications. Such as how Viagra came about. Arganine is still used in patients with heart probs like said above, as well as in burn patients and other sorts. Like also said above, cycling anything is the best Idea rather than prolonged use.

Not saying the site is credible, but the info poses many new questions for me at least...

Paddon-Jones et al. (2004) found that nitric oxide supplementation does not provide an ergogenic effect to healthy individuals. Miguez et al. (2004) found that 4 weeks of L-arginine supplementation increased serum triglyceride levels and significantly increased levels of low-density lipoprotein (LD) cholesterol. This is obviously cause for concern and needs to be further investigated. Evans et al. (2004) sought to find the optimal dosage of L-arginine to elicit the greatest effect on nitric oxide synthesis. Manufacturers recommend upwards of 6000-10000 mg/day but many athletes report taking even higher dosages as much as 35000 mg/day, nearly six times the recommended intake. Evans (2004) found that half the participants supplementing with 20000 mg/day reported serious adverse side effects from L-arginine supplementation and over half of the participants reported severe side effects when taking more than 20000 mg/day. A significant portion of individuals supplementing with 9000 mg/day reported adverse effects, and over the duration of the supplementation period, no participants experienced any sort of weight gain. Chu et al. (2004) found that L-arginine supplementation impaired pulmonary endothelium-dependent relaxation of vascular tissue. This may lead to potentially dangerous vascular spasms and cardiovascular abnormalities.

It has been found that L-arginine keto-gluterate supplementation stimulates rapid vasidilation in a non-discriminatory fashion. Significant vasodilatation causes a drop in blood pressure (because as the veins widen, the pressure drops). Baroreceptors in the aortic arch and in the carotid sinus will detect this fast, significant drop in both systolic and diastolic blood pressure. During exercise, it is imperative that diastolic blood pressure remain constant. It is natural for systolic blood pressure to rise during the onset of exercise, but diastolic blood pressure values must remain constant. A drop in either during exercise is cause for great concern and can lead to serious cardiovascular damage. In order to protect the body from going into shock, vasomotor centers in the medulla will cause the blood vessels leading to the brain to constrict in order to increase blood pressure going into the brain (too much blood can severely damage the brain, just like too little). This is a dangerous sequence that can potentially lead to a vascular catastrophe.

Based on the available research, this author strongly recommends that athletes avoid nitric oxide and hemodilator supplements in the interest of safety. Moreover, it has been suggested that these supplements have little or no anabolic or ergogenic benefits for the athlete.



http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/suppanalysis.php

[CrowXS]

Ive read all of this, so my question is, is it safe to maybe cycle NO2 1-2 months on, then a couple of weeks off? And does NO2 cause any bloating or bulking, because im trying to not bulk.

[Silverzr]

Ive read all of this, so my question is, is it safe to maybe cycle NO2 1-2 months on, then a couple of weeks off?

This is my roomates account and I scan these boards often seeeing as I am an avid lifter. I am an Anasthesiologist/Trauma physician who works in and around the St. Louis Area. In all of the medical journals that I have seen that deal Arginine supplementation (especially L-Arginine and AAKG in regards to body building) the evidence seems to suggest that there is indeed safety issues with the long term supplmentation of Arginine based substances. The efficacy of such supplementation is also in doubt but I will not discuss that in this post. As you have all said it is a "vasodilator". Over the long term this can affect your arterial walls. I am being vague here for a reason. The studies report extremely varied effects to the different individuals areterial walls but one thing remained constant; the effect (and essentially the "wear and tear") on them was there. It is the doctors reccomendation that if you choose to supplement with Arginine you also include a large amount of anti-oxidants (my favorite and seemingly most beneficial is several fresh cups of Green Tea each day) and you cycle them 2 months on followed by 2 weeks off. This gives the cells of your arteries and veins time to rest (essentially it gives them time to replace themselves). In this way you can (1) avoid negative effects of Arginine supplementation and (2) retain the efficacy of the substance.

It should be known that I do supplement with AAKG myself and I personally believe that if used correctly it is both effective and safe.

[str8flexed]

This is my roomates account and I scan these boards often seeeing as I am an avid lifter. I am an Anasthesiologist/Trauma physician who works in and around the St. Louis Area. In all of the medical journals that I have seen that deal Arginine supplementation (especially L-Arginine and AAKG in regards to body building) the evidence seems to suggest that there is indeed safety issues with the long term supplmentation of Arginine based substances. The efficacy of such supplementation is also in doubt but I will not discuss that in this post. As you have all said it is a "vasodilator". Over the long term this can affect your arterial walls. I am being vague here for a reason. The studies report extremely varied effects to the different individuals areterial walls but one thing remained constant; the effect (and essentially the "wear and tear") on them was there. It is the doctors reccomendation that if you choose to supplement with Arginine you also include a large amount of anti-oxidants (my favorite and seemingly most beneficial is several fresh cups of Green Tea each day) and you cycle them 2 months on followed by 2 weeks off. This gives the cells of your arteries and veins time to rest (essentially it gives them time to replace themselves). In this way you can (1) avoid negative effects of Arginine supplementation and (2) retain the efficacy of the substance.

It should be known that I do supplement with AAKG myself and I personally believe that if used correctly it is both effective and safe.

one problem with this train of thought. Exercise causes potent vasodilation. Are you implying that exercise is bad for the circulatory system?

[marcmathews]

I dont think he is implying anything he is just stating what he has seen and read in studys, that is some intresting info by the way.

[xJonathanx]

We all gotta die sometime! when the big man calls your number

I was born with kawisaki's disease...it is arthritis of the blood vessels. it was something when i was little to watch for, but the doctor said not to worry about it later in life.

i wonder if arginine could help this condition.