christians: is the old testament wrong?

[Vaper]

No, there's no Third temple in Jerusalem, sorry. You either are lying or misinformed. :-o

The Bible makes no mention of a rapture or second coming, sorry. That's revisionist wishful thinking.

hahaha you just confirmed what i said about not having the complete forumla, well done.

[jf1]

Jesus rebuilt the temple in three days and your other mentions will be fullfilled with the rapture.

talk about open ended! whatever hasnt been fullfilled yet, will be fullfilled in the future!
i guess that would be 'hedging your bets ' huh?!

[JAGERBOY]

Even science has underlying assumptions. Even math. Some Christians try to justify Christianity scientifically, personally I think it not a good idea. I don't think "Christianity tries to be science" though.

Yes, science "assumes" that if an observed phenomenon has occured the same way for the past say, 1000 years, that it will likely keep occuring. Science "assumes" that if we perform empricial testing that yield the same results over and over and over and over and over again that it will likely happen that way everytime.

If something asserts itself as reality or truth, then it can then be put into the realm of science. The only reason you don't want Christianity to be meshed with science, is because you know that it won't pass the scientific method. So in order to justify your beliefs, you compartmentalize Christanity away from rational thought and science.

[Vaper]

talk about open ended! whatever hasnt been fullfilled yet, will be fullfilled in the future!
i guess that would be 'hedging your bets ' huh?!

Well the Jews believe it is all on the future (an impossibility) so.......yeah talk about irony huh ?

[big_jon]

The problem is, you are looking at Islam from the outside. When I chose to give Islam a go, I chose to believe that Mohammed was the most important prophet, and that there is some explanation for why those things don't add up.

Yes, I agree with that. But I'm going to give Christianity a go first. If it doesn't work out, I might give Islam a go. I can't try them all at once!

[grup910]

hahaha you just confirmed what i said about not having the complete forumla, well done.

The "complete formula" is the Torah, since that's where the claims and prophecies originated. The historical fact is, JC doesn't fit the formula.

[JAGERBOY]

Yes, I agree with that. But I'm going to give Christianity a go first. If it doesn't work out, I might give Islam a go. I can't try them all at once!

Why assume any of them are correct? Why MUST a religion have it right, what if they are all wrong? If you believe there is a god, thats one thing, go for it. But as far as all of the hundreds of religions out there, how about you objectively research them first instead of classifying yourself as a member of said religion right of the bat?

[Vaper]

The "complete formula" is the Torah

So what part of "I will make a new covenant" cant you comprehend exactly ?

[grup910]

Why assume any of them are correct? Why MUST a religion have it right, what if they are all wrong? If you believe there is a god, thats one thing, go for it. But as far as all of the hundreds of religions out there, how about you objectively research them first instead of classifying yourself as a member of said religion right of the bat?

He's afraid not to believe in JC. The truth of the matter is that 99% of people who defend xianity without even knowing anything else think a big lightning bolt or something is going to come down out of the sky and hit them if they dare to question christianity at all. That's how xianity trains its followers, to minimize the chances of people breaking free of the brainwashing.

[ACslatering]

so society hasn't evolved in 2000 years since the NT?

naaah some old ppl in fancy hats thought it'd be cool to change it. big whoop?
google search all the **** thats missing from the new testament, hell apparently in the new revised edition i heard its gonna have a vote ron paul verse in it.

Its not written by jesus christ - just some people who were 'deemed' relgious higher ups that wanted to retell their story's

[grup910]

So what part of "I will make a new covenant" cant you comprehend exactly ?

I comprehend all of it. The old covenant was "written on their lips," the new covenant will be "written on their hearts." That's the only difference, since the law is eternal and for all generations.

Has that happened yet? No, it's not "written in their hearts" (i.e., full torah observance), therefore, the messiah hasn't come yet.

It's pretty basic.

[Vaper]

He's afraid not to believe in JC. The truth of the matter is that 99% of people who defend xianity without even knowing anything else think a big lightning bolt or something is going to come down out of the sky and hit them if they dare to question christianity at all. That's how xianity trains its followers, to minimize the chances of people breaking free of the brainwashing.

So, tell me again why you never use the word "God" and why were you scared to type the name "Jesus" ?

Oh thats right, thinka big lightning bolt is going to come down out of the sky hit you...

[Vaper]

I comprehend all of it. The old covenant was "written on their lips," the new covenant will be "written on their hearts." That's the only difference, since the law is eternal and for all generations.

Has that happened yet? No, it's not "written in their hearts" (i.e., full torah observance), therefore, the messiah hasn't come yet.

It's pretty basic.

Self Deception is bliss isnt it ?

[JAGERBOY]

He's afraid not to believe in JC. The truth of the matter is that 99% of people who defend xianity without even knowing anything else think a big lightning bolt or something is going to come down out of the sky and hit them if they dare to question christianity at all. That's how xianity trains its followers, to minimize the chances of people breaking free of the brainwashing.

Being completely honest, thats part of the reason I called myself an "agnostic" for a while, because I didn't want to hurt God/Jesus/Allahs/Vishnus/Zeus's feelings. I figured if I wasn't TOTALLY an atheist they would not get as mad.

Then I came to me senses.

[grup910]

So, tell me again why you never use the word "God" and why were you scared to type the name "Jesus" ?

Oh thats right, thinka big lightning bolt is going to come down out of the sky hit you...

No, it's out of respect to the Jewish belief system, a concept that the christians are unfamiliar with.

[comebakthursday]

one would think that to 'experience' a relgion, you would have to understand it first! so many self professed christians around here know less about their religion than the people who dont follow it!

for me, the more i learned about christianity the more ridiculous i found the belief to be!

I refuse to pull myself into a debate about Christ with those who don't follow Christ, so if i at any point just don't post anymore, it's probably because of your(or anyone elses) pushy and ignorant behavior.

That being said..I can not speak for all Christians, all catholics or all Protestants. I myself am a Protestant Christian though.

The bible CLEARLY states(where i can not quote off hand though) that there will ALWAYS be things that man will not understand. There will always be doubts. But it asks that you put your faith in Christ regardless.

You say a man that doesn't know so much about the bible shouldn't call himself a Christian. Well i say a man that claims to full understand and follow the bible is a liar. For it is quoted that man will never fully understand everything. It is yet another tribulation(or trial) the man is put through.

You did not learn about Christianity, you learned about what you read. You treated it as a textbook, soaked in the information, and deciphered it yourself. A true Christian only understands the book if God allows you to understand it. You took things literally without regard to other passages and probably took most things out of context.

When i first gave myself to the Lord i knew little, but i know that if you were to come to me then and say that i must not be a Christian because of my lack of understanding, i would of laughed in your faced and walked away. It was because of my willingness to walk into a faith and give it my life that i know and understand it the way i do today.

[grup910]

Self Deception is bliss isnt it ?

Self deception? You mean like how you only quote one fourth of the actual quote and pretend it's the whole thing, so you can pretend it means something it doesn't say?

[JAGERBOY]

Self Deception is bliss isnt it ?

You mean like what indoctrinated theists do on a daily basis?

[grup910]

Being completely honest, thats part of the reason I called myself an "agnostic" for a while, because I didn't want to hurt God/Jesus/Allahs/Vishnus/Zeus's feelings. I figured if I wasn't TOTALLY an atheist they would not get as mad.

Then I came to me senses.

+1

I remember the day I "woke up" from the whole thing, came to my senses, and saw that it was a total fake, like some sort of comic book I had been hypnotized to believe in. It was like waking up out of a dream: everything looked fresh and alive. For a minute or two before it sunk in that I was totally free, I half expected to get hit with that lightning bolt myself!

[big_jon]

Why assume any of them are correct? Why MUST a religion have it right, what if they are all wrong? If you believe there is a god, thats one thing, go for it. But as far as all of the hundreds of religions out there, how about you objectively research them first instead of classifying yourself as a member of said religion right of the bat?

That is a whole new issue. I think people believe in a "God" for many different reasons.

Personally, a few reasons I want to believe in a God is firstly, life without a God feels empty. The thought that there is only this life, and nothing more.

Another one is that I have great respect for the Christian way of life. Sure, you can be a pretty "good" person without a religion, but I think you can only be so good without believing in something greater.

I am sure I will find more reasons as I experience Christianity further. I have also heard many other reasons e.g. from other Christians.

EDIT: Oh, and as I said I don't think it is possible to "objectively" examine a religion. BTW, I never did any classifying.

[jf1]

I refuse to pull myself into a debate about Christ with those who don't follow Christ, so if i at any point just don't post anymore, it's probably because of your(or anyone elses) pushy and ignorant behavior.

That being said..I can not speak for all Christians, all catholics or all Protestants. I myself am a Protestant Christian though.

The bible CLEARLY states(where i can not quote off hand though) that there will ALWAYS be things that man will not understand. There will always be doubts. But it asks that you put your faith in Christ regardless.

You say a man that doesn't know so much about the bible shouldn't call himself a Christian. Well i say a man that claims to full understand and follow the bible is a liar. For it is quoted that man will never fully understand everything. It is yet another tribulation(or trial) the man is put through.

You did not learn about Christianity, you learned about what you read. You treated it as a textbook, soaked in the information, and deciphered it yourself. A true Christian only understands the book if God allows you to understand it. You took things literally without regard to other passages and probably took most things out of context.

When i first gave myself to the Lord i knew little, but i know that if you were to come to me then and say that i must not be a Christian because of my lack of understanding, i would of laughed in your faced and walked away. It was because of my willingness to walk into a faith and give it my life that i know and understand it the way i do today.

you are 18years old and have given yourself to the lord?
how does this happen? (serious)

[grup910]

The bible CLEARLY states(where i can not quote off hand though) that there will ALWAYS be things that man will not understand. There will always be doubts. But it asks that you put your faith in Christ regardless.

Iow, it told you to turn off your brain so you could be brainwashed, and you complied. That's not really what your brain was designed for, though -- don't you wonder about that? About why it would tell you to do something so unnatural and contrary to your higher human nature?

And where does it say that, by the way? The people who wrote the bible have a much different idea of faith.

http://www.headcoverings-by-devorah....rsonality.html

[big_jon]

http://www.aish.com/spirituality/philosophy/Why_Dont_Jews_Believe_In_Jesus$.asp

Well hey, it already includes a rebuttal:

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.

I wonder what these "Jewish sources" are...

[JAGERBOY]

That is a whole new issue. I think people believe in a "God" for many different reasons.

Personally, a few reasons I want to believe in a God is firstly, life without a God feels empty. The thought that there is only this life, and nothing more.

Another one is that I have great respect for the Christian way of life. Sure, you can be a pretty "good" person without a religion, but I think you can only be so good without believing in something greater.

I am sure I will find more reasons as I experience Christianity further. I have also heard many other reasons e.g. from other Christians.

Man, I really have no issue with people that want to believe a "god" exists. I personally can not force myself to believe in things that I see no evidence for, but thats me. I also have no problem if you respect "Christian values". But just because you respect the values in a book, does not lend to it being factual. For example you could think that the way the characters act in Harry Potter is great, doesn't mean its factual.

Im sure as you go on your Christian journey, you will meet many Christians who will tell you many neat sayings that will help you rationalize your beliefs further. Im about 99% positive however, you will not meet anyone that will give you any real deal hardcore evidence to support the Bible being factual.

Good luck.

[grup910]

you are 18years old and have given yourself to the lord?
how does this happen? (serious)

I wouldn't trust half the things I thought I knew when I was 18, let alone younger, when so many people decide to "give themselves to jeezus." Would you take spiritual advice from a 15 year old? Pretty scary!

[grup910]

Well hey, it already includes a rebuttal:

I wonder what these "Jewish sources" are...

The Torah.

[JAGERBOY]

Well hey, it already includes a rebuttal:

I wonder what these "Jewish sources" are...

I mean...probably the Torah, you know, those writings that were responsible for even giving you the idea that a messiah would come. They just MIGHT know what the requirements for seeing as how it was THEIR idea to begin with. Not that its true either way, but as far as requirements are concerned, they probably are experts in that.

[big_jon]

Man, I really have no issue with people that want to believe a "god" exists. I personally can not force myself to believe in things that I see no evidence for, but thats me. I also have no problem if you respect "Christian values". But just because you respect the values in a book, does not lend to it being factual. For example you could think that the way the characters act in Harry Potter is great, doesn't mean its factual.

Im sure as you go on your Christian journey, you will meet many Christians who will tell you many neat sayings that will help you rationalize your beliefs further. Im about 99% positive however, you will not meet anyone that will give you any real deal hardcore evidence to support the Bible being factual.

Good luck.

It sounds like you are equating evidence with "scientific" evidence. I've already explained why this is not a good idea.

The only evidence I am hoping to find is through my experiences.

BTW, I am not following Christianity *just* because I admire it's values, and it is definitely not something I am hoping to base my faith upon.

[big_jon]

The Torah.

They say "no concept of the second coming exists". I was pretty sure that Christianity includes a concept of the second coming.

I won't try and argue though, since I clearly have a lot to learn on this topic.

[JAGERBOY]

It sounds like you are equating evidence with "scientific" evidence. I've already explained why this is not a good idea.

The only evidence I am hoping to find is through my experiences.

Once again, if it is asserting to be the true account of events and the way things work, then it is attempting to be science. And if its attempting to be science, then we should be able to find scientific evidence for it.

BTW, I am not following Christianity *just* because I admire it's values, and it is definitely not something I am hoping to base my faith upon.

Why else are you following it?