evolutionists in here, I got a Q

[bluesky3]

false?
what is false in the message?

show me what is false, then we'll discuss.

Oh gee, how about the fact they proclaim the earth/universe is 6000 years old, defying basically every field of science with no supportive evidence of their own...?

maybe once I get my certificate/Bsc. I should scan and post it here

I'm more worried about what you are going to do after you get your Bsc. No one gets into med-school in the US with a 75% average in their biology courses, and I heard Canadian schools were harder to get into (because you have fewer). And we've established you arent going to be doing research...

I would be studying your MCAT materials right now if I were you, and praying for a 40.

[olaf christ]

hmmm...
let's start with perfection of design
http://harunyahya.com/designinnature0.php

It's incredible that some people are so arrogant they can maintain the belief that they are 'perfect'.

Let's start with the eyes you are reading this with right now.

They both have a blind spot at the attachment of the optic nerve. There's nothing 'perfect' about a blind spot, many other creatures have excellent vision without this problem (eg octopus).

How do you explain that as perfect? It's 'good enough' to get the job done, but it's far from perfection.

[TranceNRG]

Oh gee, how about the fact they proclaim the earth/universe is 6000 years old, defying basically every field of science with no supportive evidence of their own...?

this is why exactly I told you to post examples.
Because I assumed that you would automatically think all creation theories are from a christianity prespective.

so in this case, you are right, that is wrong.
but muslims do not believe that.
and I won't comment on how christians view it.

I'm more worried about what you are going to do after you get your Bsc. No one gets into med-school in the US with a 75% average in their biology courses, and I heard Canadian schools were harder to get into (because you have fewer). And we've established you arent going to be doing research...

ya I know, it's tough
I am actually worried.
but we have to wait and see.
my friend got in with a 79% and a 32
luckily in UBC they look at alot of extracurricular activites, and I'm getting alot of those.

I would be studying your MCAT materials right now if I were you, and praying for a 40.

I am
a 40? :S
lol

anything over 30

[bluesky3]

They both have a blind spot at the attachment of the optic nerve. There's nothing 'perfect' about a blind spot, many other creatures have excellent vision without this problem (eg octopus).

Its no use olaf. He thinks your respiratory system is perfect too. Which I tend to agree with, because my trachea was just the perfect size for the grape I choked on when I was three

[TranceNRG]

It's incredible that some people are so arrogant they can maintain the belief that they are 'perfect'.

Let's start with the eyes you are reading this with right now.

They both have a blind spot at the attachment of the optic nerve. There's nothing 'perfect' about a blind spot, many other creatures have excellent vision without this problem (eg octopus).

How do you explain that as perfect? It's 'good enough' to get the job done, but it's far from perfection.

http://harunyahya.com/books/science/...cle_eye_01.php

[bluesky3]

http://harunyahya.com/books/science/...cle_eye_01.php

Told you olaf.

Dont waste your breath going in depth about the evolution of the eye for him. He's taken zoology, where you were supposed to learn that material already. Unfortunately the class material had no chance against his Impenetrable Class M Creationist Armour.

[olaf christ]

http://harunyahya.com/books/science/...cle_eye_01.php

That still doesn't explain why our 'perfect' eye has a blind spot.

It seems to me you are adopting the classic 'shotgun' approach: providing a broad spectrum of 'evidence' for your claims, all of which falls apart on closer inspection, at which point you then shovel yet more bull**** onto the pile.

[PowerSwede]

http://harunyahya.com/books/science/...cle_eye_01.php

This isn't the first article to use this method and it isn't the last, it uses the same flawed logic to provide proof for something that isn't because something else isn't.

You need to read the text with knowledge, if you simply use it to learn from to discard what IS true you are going to learn something that is incorrect.

Which again is their entire point with every attempt they make to disprove anything, they concentrate on the irrelevant while forgetting the bigger picture, i have said it before and i'll say it again.

[TranceNRG]

Told you olaf.

Dont waste your breath going in depth about the evolution of the eye for him. He's taken zoology, where you were supposed to learn that material already. Unfortunately the class material had no chance against his Impenetrable Class M Creationist Armour.

yup
That armour is called faith, which I initially didn't have

[TranceNRG]

That still doesn't explain why our 'perfect' eye has a blind spot.

It seems to me you are adopting the classic 'shotgun' approach: providing a broad spectrum of 'evidence' for your claims, all of which falls apart on closer inspection, at which point you then shovel yet more bull**** onto the pile.

sure...
if you believe they fall apart, let's discuss it.

rather than pushing it aside as bs, why don't we discuss the evidence in a deep manner

[TranceNRG]

This isn't the first article to use this method and it isn't the last, it uses the same flawed logic to provide proof for something that isn't because something else isn't.

You need to read the text with knowledge, if you simply use it to learn from to discard what IS true you are going to learn something that is incorrect.

Which again is their entire point with every attempt they make to disprove anything, they concentrate on the irrelevant while forgetting the bigger picture, i have said it before and i'll say it again.

again if you think their claims are false, please provide examples rather than blanket statements

[PowerSwede]

yup
That armour is called faith, which I initially didn't have

If you think that proves anything i initially had faith and while discovering these things i realized that my faith was only holding me back, refusing to se what you really COULD see if you were to think outside your faith does not limit your faith, it only limits your knowledge, to you, faith is important, however, if you keep up your studies you'll come to the point where you have to acknowledge truth even if it goes against your faith, or give up your studies.

In your case, sadly, i think you'll aim for the latter.

[PowerSwede]

again if you think their claims are false, please provide examples rather than blanket statements

The example is the article in itself, read it with a critical mind, try to evaluate what is said compared to what is KNOWN true, try to disregard any explanations that do not follow what is known and you'll find it for yourself, it is not my job to give you examples, if anything, by critically analyzing you are doing yourself a favour, if you still miss the flaws, and don't just say "i miss them" because you don't want to put in the effort.

Perfection is....

[TranceNRG]

If you think that proves anything i initially had faith and while discovering these things i realized that my faith was only holding me back, refusing to se what you really COULD see if you were to think outside your faith does not limit your faith, it only limits your knowledge, to you, faith is important, however, if you keep up your studies you'll come to the point where you have to acknowledge truth even if it goes against your faith, or give up your studies.

In your case, sadly, i think you'll aim for the latter.

We approached sciences differently I'm assuming.
I approached it to both learn its strength AND its weaknesses.
In many cases it amazes me and I am glad and proud of human advances, but at the same I can see how it is limited and imperfect.

I won't give up studying, but I won't aim to learn sciences to weaken my faith.

Some people (not you necessarily) would love to find any excuse to lose the responsibilities that come with following a religion.

[TranceNRG]

The example is the article in itself, read it with a critical mind, try to evaluate what is said compared to what is KNOWN true, try to disregard any explanations that do not follow what is known and you'll find it for yourself, it is not my job to give you examples, if anything, by critically analyzing you are doing yourself a favour, if you still miss the flaws, and don't just say "i miss them" because you don't want to put in the effort.

ok then.
but until then, you cannot claim there's anything false.
Since it seems how I read books and journals is different from how you read it.

Perfection is....

God

[AntonToo]

Trance, I'd like to thank you for doing your darn best to discredit and embarass religion. It's people like you that will put religion out of bussiness. I also thank you for the many laughters you bring us at your own expense, denial you've embrased is small price to pay....It's really too bad creationism won't make it into schoolbooks, I'd be really farward to something like that, for much same reason I applaud your efforts.

EDIT: Secondsight is as well more then deserving of same praise.

[TranceNRG]

Trance, I'd like to thank you for doing your darn best to discredit and embarass religion. It's people like you that will put religion out of bussiness. I also thank you for the many laughters you bring us at your own expense, denial you've embrased is small price to pay....It's really too bad creationism won't make it into schoolbooks, I'd be really farward to something like that, for much same reason I applaud your efforts.

no problem.
I do hope your pink elephant comes to your help when you're in need of help

[secondsight]

Trance, I'd like to thank you for doing your darn best to discredit and embarass religion. It's people like you that will put religion out of bussiness. I also thank you for the many laughters you bring us at your own expense, denial you've embrased is small price to pay....It's really too bad creationism won't make it into schoolbooks, I'd be really farward to something like that, for much same reason I applaud your efforts.

You better watch out because "your own mouth condemns you, not mine; your own lips testify against you."

[AntonToo]

You better watch out because "your own mouth condemns you, not mine; your own lips testify against you."

Forgive me secondsight I forgot to credit you as well.

Throughout your lives my dears you will continue to see religion's decline and atheism's rise as it is happening now, as it has been happening for a long long time now. Evolution will only be further supported, Creationism will be put away as a bad joke.

Religion has NEVER won any fights with science and it NEVER will, it did however take quite a bit of bashing from science and it will be bashed on untill it learns not to take stances against science, I ofcoarce hope that's never.

Your pbuhs and christs aint coming my friends, there will not be "salvation" for your "sins", you will just get a hart attack or cancer and die, so be carefull what you do with your time. Some things are true, some things are false just be VERY carefull not to spend your life on the wrong side.

[TranceNRG]

Forgive me secondsight I forgot to credit you as well.

Throughout your lives my dears you will continue to see religion's decline and atheism's rise as it is happening now, as it has been happening for a long long time now. Evolution will only be further supported, Creationism will be put away as a bad joke.

Religion has NEVER won any fights with science and it NEVER will, it did however take quite a bit of bashing from science and it will be bashed on untill it learns not to take stances against science, I ofcoarce hope that's never.

Your pbuhs and christs aint coming my friends, there will not be "salvation" for your "sins", you will just get a hart attack or cancer and die, so be carefull what you do with your time. Some things are true, some things are false just be VERY carefull not to spend your life on the wrong side.

thanks for predicting the future.
I'll keep that in mind.

[secondsight]

Some things are true, some things are false just be VERY carefull not to spend your life on the wrong side.

You'd be wise to heed your own advice because "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

[AntonToo]

"The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

Is it really? Is it clear?? sounds rather wrong with apllication to me, for I've nothign to do wtih spirits demons gods etc. But more then that spirit doesn't clearly say, and in fact to me it sais nothing at all.

[AntonToo]

thanks for predicting the future.
I'll keep that in mind.

Yes and please do let me know when I'll be wrong. Should you not get such a chance till you deathbed, be very sure to take note.

[TranceNRG]

Yes and please do let me know when I'll be wrong. Should you not get such a chance till you deathbed, be very sure to take note.

how can I tell you when you're wrong, when we disagree on the definition of wrong

[AntonToo]

how can I tell you when you're wrong, when we disagree on the definition of wrong

nope you can't take this one into obscurity, very simple:

1.When Creationism/ID is accepted as valid scientific theory
2.When evolution is demoted from it's position of scietific theory
3.When messiah comes around again and prooves all of us geeks wrong.
4.When religion will be gaining power and atheism will be on decline.
5.When religion turns out right and science wrong.

Should any of those 5 be true, I am wrong.

[locknid]

nope you can't take this one into obscurity, very simple:

1.When Creationism/ID is accepted as valid scientific theory
2.When evolution is demoted from it's position of scietific theory
3.When messiah comes around again and prooves all of us geeks wrong.
4.When religion will be gaining power and atheism will be on decline.
5.When religion turns out right and science wrong.

Should any of those 5 be true, I am wrong.

And this is why evolution is still the only valid scientific theory of its kind out there. ID and creationism is nothing.

[TranceNRG]

1.When Creationism/ID is accepted as valid scientific theory

This is a problem.
You want creationists to deploy scientific rules set by scientists to prove scientists and scientific theories wrong.

2.When evolution is demoted from it's position of scietific theory

how would this occur?
since to scientists evolution is the only answer, everything dicovery would only be somehow fitted into evolution.
To evolutionists unfortunately there's only one option.

3.When messiah comes around again and prooves all of us geeks wrong.

That's like saying I'll walk with my eyes closed until I hit a wall.

4.When religion will be gaining power and atheism will be on decline.

how exactly do you think this would happen?
have people left options for the young minds to be able to think openly or are they being force in (public) schools to believe in evolution, which is a branch of materialism.

5.When religion turns out right and science wrong.

science won't turn out wrong, and religion has always been right.
You can't generalize the strength of science with this hollwo theory of evolution (macro).

Should any of those 5 be true, I am wrong.

I just hope you realize before it's too late

[PowerSwede]

ok then.
but until then, you cannot claim there's anything false.
Since it seems how I read books and journals is different from how you read it.




God

No, the point, which you missed because you refuse to realize that what you are studying is leading you further to the truth, is that perfection is not the point of evolution, it in't even the goal, because you fail to see that evolution just is, it is the effects of nature evolving within the laws it is bound, perfection for human usage does not equal universal perfection, the blind spot is till present and it DOES point to evolution, or are you saying god made a mistake?

That you don't have the ability to read what YOU believe confirms you beliefs with a critical eye is not my fault nor is it my problem, but not even being able to acknowledge that you read it JUST to further your point without acknowleging the flaws maked you hypocritical if you EVER point out the flaws in ANY text.

[TranceNRG]

No, the point, which you missed because you refuse to realize that what you are studying is leading you further to the truth, is that perfection is not the point of evolution, it in't even the goal, because you fail to see that evolution just is, it is the effects of nature evolving within the laws it is bound, perfection for human usage does not equal universal perfection, the blind spot is till present and it DOES point to evolution, or are you saying god made a mistake?

I do realize what I'm studying is leading me to the truth, and that truth is the perfect design of nature by God.
I am well aware that Evolution has no goal or direction, in fact i did post it a few times.
It's not a mistake, Just because we are not capable of understanding the reason behind its existence does not make it God's mistake.


[quote
That you don't have the ability to read what YOU believe confirms you beliefs with a critical eye is not my fault nor is it my problem, but not even being able to acknowledge that you read it JUST to further your point without acknowleging the flaws maked you hypocritical if you EVER point out the flaws in ANY text.[/QUOTE]

what?!
Anything written by fallible humans could be fallible.
Be it for or against religion.
However, what is written by God and revealed through holy books (I can only speak for the quran) is infallible.

So I might find flaws and weaknesses even in the pro-creationists arguements, but that doesn't lead to a mistake in the perfect design.

[PowerSwede]

I do realize what I'm studying is leading me to the truth, and that truth is the perfect design of nature by God.
I am well aware that Evolution has no goal or direction, in fact i did post it a few times.
It's not a mistake, Just because we are not capable of understanding the reason behind its existence does not make it God's mistake.




what?!
Anything written by fallible humans could be fallible.
Be it for or against religion.
However, what is written by God and revealed through holy books (I can only speak for the quran) is infallible.

So I might find flaws and weaknesses even in the pro-creationists arguements, but that doesn't lead to a mistake in the perfect design.

Anything written can be wrong, no matter whether you BELIEVE it is the word of God, that is beside the point, i am not sure if you really don't get what i am saying or if you are just playing games.

You fail to see, there is nothing that proves creationism in any way, shape or form while every evidence KNOWN points to evolution, the ones who didn't qualify have been dismissed, which is WHAT makes the scientific theory of evolution robust, you can't disprove it and neither can anyone else while the philisopical theory of creation has NO evidence, not even ONE.

One of these theories is true, one has all evidence on it's side, you, as a student of biology chose the other one, i see that as a failure of YOURS, not of anything else.

It is useless to have a discussion with you, so don't expect further replies.