evolutionists in here, I got a Q

[TranceNRG]

when it comes to the darwinian evolution theory, the bottom line is that, every species that exists today is a result of chance + selection. correct?

if so, can this chance explain the precision of size, shade, colour, length and etc. of species?


Let's start with this.

Also, I'm only 6 credits (2 courses) short of a genetic bachlor, so go as deep and scientific as you wish.
If it gets too scientific I'll let you know

[Butmonkey]

when it comes to the darwinian evolution theory, the bottom line is that, every species that exists today is a result of chance + selection. correct?

if so, can this chance explain the precision of size, shade, colour, length and etc. of species?


Let's start with this.

Also, I'm only 6 credits (2 courses) short of a genetic bachlor, so go as deep and scientific as you wish.
If it gets too scientific I'll let you know

Yes.

[Carmack]

Mutations - random
National Selection - Non-random, depends on the environement.

[MatthewM]

yep, genetic mutations cause alot of that. If its a good mutation (helps the creature breed, eat, etc.) it "sticks". If its a bad mutation...well it dies off.

-MatthewM

[TranceNRG]

Mutations - random
National Selection - Non-random, depends on the environement.

Natural selection only occurs when a mutation randonmly has presented the favorable trait.

so it is based on chance initially.

[concept]

if so, can this chance explain the precision of size, shade, colour, length and etc. of species?

You mean as to why each of the animal species as it is today? Well, if a spider orginally has 10 legs and it never changed, how else would we suppose to know it only suppose to have 8?

[Carmack]

Natural selection only occurs when a mutation randonmly has presented the favorable trait.

so it is based on chance initially.

Natural Selection chooses whether it is a favorable trait. There can be harmful and neutral mutations as well.

[TranceNRG]

yep, genetic mutations cause alot of that. If its a good mutation (helps the creature breed, eat, etc.) it "sticks". If its a bad mutation...well it dies off.

-MatthewM

first, can you name a few good mutations?

second, if that is so, evolution is based on trial an error, correct?
now, the rate of mutation is 1 * 10^-6. Let's say a random mutation causes a creature to evolve a useful "thing". if this useful thing is the only thing that was needed then random selection would occur. now, look at even the closests sister species that you know. Is there just ONE difference between the two?

if not, count all the difference and multiply them by 1 * 10^-6.

thirdly, scientists believe that we all were evolved from a single prokaryotic cell, with alot less genetic codes than us. and the only way we evolved was manily through gene duplication. If so, then why certain simpler species have higher number of DNA and genes?

[TranceNRG]

You mean as to why each of the animal species as it is today? Well, if a spider orginally has 10 legs and it never changed, how else would we suppose to know it only suppose to have 8?

sorry, what?!

[TranceNRG]

Natural Selection chooses whether it is a favorable trait. There can be harmful and neutral mutations as well.

you're right, which means that the trait must already be present before selection can occur.
and the trait becomes present by chance.

[sticklegs]

first, can you name a few good mutations?

second, if that is so, evolution is based on trial an error, correct?
now, the rate of mutation is 1 * 10^-6. Let's say a random mutation causes a creature to evolve a useful "thing". if this useful thing is the only thing that was needed then random selection would occur. now, look at even the closests sister species that you know. Is there just ONE difference between the two?

if not, count all the difference and multiply them by 1 * 10^-6.

thirdly, scientists believe that we all were evolved from a single prokaryotic cell, with alot less genetic codes than us. and the only way we evolved was manily through gene duplication. If so, then why certain simpler species have higher number of DNA and genes?

any mutation that causes an organism to have a better chance at survive and a better chance to reproduce would be a good mutation. Different types of beaks in bird species better suited to the food type in their area is the first on that I can think on.

Isn't most mutations cause by radiation (usually cosmic radiation such as gama rays)? If I am correct mutation rates could fluctuate being much higher in times when our magnetic field was much weaker (or even completely off as some think happens before it reverses).

[TranceNRG]

any mutation that causes an organism to have a better chance at survive and a better chance to reproduce would be a good mutation. Different types of beaks in bird species better suited to the food type in their area is the first on that I can think on.

yes, that is adaptation though. (microevolution)
when I speak about evolution I mean macroevolution.

sorry I should've mentioned this earlier.

Isn't most mutations cause by radiation (usually cosmic radiation such as gama rays)? If I am correct mutation rates could fluctuate being much higher in times when our magnetic field was much weaker (or even completely off as some think happens before it reverses).

radiation speeds up mutation rate and causes cancer.
also, where would this excessive radiation be millions of years ago?

[holdie]

I'm pretty sure mutation just randomly occurs, it happens somewhat often I think, though many times the mutations aren't noticable because there aren't any external changes and they don't affect the way you live so you'd never know.

The idea behind us coming from one cell is that, thought it originally was the same cell, a number of mutations throughout time have caused millions of branches to extend from that cell. For instance, the one cell is sitting there, and it multiplies a million times. Say that there are 5 mutants in this multiplication, four of them die because the mutation gave them a disadvantage in nature, but one was left and it has a slightly genetic makeup than its "creator," it has now created another branch and they are now moving in slightly different directions. Now take this same process, carry it out over a few trillion years, and take into consideration the fact that there are certain niches and jobs that must be fulfilled in order to have a functioning ecosystem, and you will find why the world is as it is today.

[sticklegs]

yes, that is adaptation though. (microevolution)
when I speak about evolution I mean macroevolution.

sorry I should've mentioned this earlier.



radiation speeds up mutation rate and causes cancer.
also, where would this excessive radiation be millions of years ago?

The Earth's magnetic field reverses at intervals, ranging from tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of years. It is believed that this last occurred some 600,000 years ago . It is believed that the magnetic field, which both guards the planet from radiation, collapses during a reversal of the poles.

PS Magnetism trapped in ancient pottery shows that over the past 4,000 years, the magnetic field has weakened by more than 50%. This past century, the strength has dropped by 5%. At this rate, the field might disappear in the next few hundred or thousand years.

I don't know alot about this but IMO this is what is behind some unexplained mass extinctions and sudden rise in some species. I haven't been able to find anyone else with a published theory like this yet though

[holdie]

The Earth's magnetic field reverses at intervals, ranging from tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of years. It is believed that this last occurred some 600,000 years ago . It is believed that the magnetic field, which both guards the planet from radiation, collapses during a reversal of the poles.

PS Magnetism trapped in ancient pottery shows that over the past 4,000 years, the magnetic field has weakened by more than 50%. This past century, the strength has dropped by 5%. At this rate, the field might disappear in the next few hundred or thousand years.

I don't know alot about this but IMO this is what is behind some unexplained mass extinctions and sudden rise in some species. I haven't been able to find anyone else with a published theory like this yet though

thats pretty interesting, where'd you hear about it?

sounds like something worth looking into

[sticklegs]

thats pretty interesting, where'd you hear about it?

sounds like something worth looking into

http://geography.about.com/od/physic...a/magnetic.htm

[TranceNRG]

The Earth's magnetic field reverses at intervals, ranging from tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of years. It is believed that this last occurred some 600,000 years ago . It is believed that the magnetic field, which both guards the planet from radiation, collapses during a reversal of the poles.

PS Magnetism trapped in ancient pottery shows that over the past 4,000 years, the magnetic field has weakened by more than 50%. This past century, the strength has dropped by 5%. At this rate, the field might disappear in the next few hundred or thousand years.

I don't know alot about this but IMO this is what is behind some unexplained mass extinctions and sudden rise in some species. I haven't been able to find anyone else with a published theory like this yet though

Biggest diversification occured 543 Million years ago, during cambrian geological period.

Also, as I said, radiation leads to cancer and tumors, since in most cases the radiants replaces the natural elements of the body.

[bluesky3]

Wait a minute. You say this:

Also, I'm only 6 credits (2 courses) short of a genetic bachlor, so go as deep and scientific as you wish.
If it gets too scientific I'll let you know.

And then you say this:

yes, that is adaptation though. (microevolution)
when I speak about evolution I mean macroevolution.

*frown* My eukaryotic genetics course was entirely about this mystical magical ‘macroevolution’ you speak of. I’d like the e-mail of your professors to send them a much needed rant (evidently). Ignoring that—why don’t you ask them these questions?

Forgive me for being snippy, but I certainly hope this isn’t a ploy to get other people to do your homework for you?

And what, exactly, is an 'evolutionist?' *frown*

[TranceNRG]

Wait a minute. You say this:


And then you say this:


*frown* My eukaryotic genetics course was entirely about this mystical magical ‘macroevolution’ you speak of. I’d like the e-mail of your professors to send them a much needed rant (evidently). Ignoring that—why don’t you ask them these questions?

Forgive me for being snippy, but I certainly hope this isn’t a ploy to get other people to do your homework for you?

And what, exactly, is an 'evolutionist?' *frown*

what?!?!

homework?!

can you explain what you just said?

[bluesky3]

Yes.

If you are a genetics student you should be asking your professors these questions. They need to be made aware that some of their students are not understanding some of the fundamentals properly, so they can adjust their teaching accordingly.

...the trait becomes present by chance...

…yes, that is adaptation though. (microevolution)
when I speak about evolution I mean macroevolution…

…first, can you name a few good mutations…

…now, look at even the closests sister species that you know. Is there just ONE difference between the two…

…then why certain simpler species have higher number of DNA and genes…

…can this chance explain the precision…

I urge you to take full advantage of your professors while you still in school.

[locknid]

what?!?!

homework?!

can you explain what you just said?

Blue is simply saying that if you were that close to a bacholer like you say then you should already know the answers to this.

[AntonToo]

so it is based on chance initially.

see this is were you misunderstand determinism which underlies science. There is no such thing as chance, meaning it just a word humans use when they are unable to conduct all the measurements and calculations needed to percisely answer the question, which is then called "random"

[sticklegs]

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...ight=evolution

[TranceNRG]

Yes.

If you are a genetics student you should be asking your professors these questions. They need to be made aware that some of their students are not understanding some of the fundamentals properly, so they can adjust their teaching accordingly.



I urge you to take full advantage of your professors while you still in school.

haha
I have asked as many questions as I could think of
including these during the tutorial session.

the most common answer seems to be "we don't know the exact ways in which evolution works" or "that is also a possibility" or " you ahve a good point"

once you get deep into evolution, it's quite vague.

[TranceNRG]

Blue is simply saying that if you were that close to a bacholer like you say then you should already know the answers to this.

I do know the answers.
I don't accept them.


The answer to shape of earth question 600 years ago used to be flat

[TranceNRG]

see this is were you misunderstand determinism which underlies science. There is no such thing as chance, meaning it just a word humans use when they are unable to conduct all the measurements and calculations needed to percisely answer the question, which is then called "random"

no such thing such as chance?
hmm... tell that to an evolution professor or a scholar.
what is random mutation then?

I do agree with you trhat there's no chance, but i believe that is because there's a creator which is controlling the action/reaction of all things.

[sticklegs]

The answer to shape of earth question 600 years ago used to be flat

not in most of the world

[bluesky3]

haha
I have asked as many questions as I could think of
including these during the tutorial session.

the most common answer seems to be "we don't know the exact ways in which evolution works" or "that is also a possibility" or " you ahve a good point"

once you get deep into evolution, it's quite vague.

*blink*
Well now I'm horrified.
I'll try to help you out, man, but you have been done a great disservice, educationally. I would be outraged. I'll try to get a PM off to you in a few days (eh its near a holiday here in the U.S.)
**wanders off, baffled**

[locknid]

I do know the answers.
I don't accept them.


The answer to shape of earth question 600 years ago used to be flat

May I ask why you are taking genetics and classes about evolution if you don't accept the things you are learning.

[TranceNRG]

2. life changed ‘by chance.’
Chance is certainly a factor in evolution, but there are also non-random evolutionary mechanisms. Random mutation is the ultimate source of genetic variation, however natural selection, the process by which some variants survive and others do not, is not random.

look at this way, if there was no random mutation there would be no natural selection, so the root of this mechanism IS chance and randomness.

Individuals that survive and reproduce better in their environment will have more offspring (displaying the same traits) in the next generation. That's non-random selection. To say that evolution happens “by chance” ignores half of the picture.

by those species that do reproduced better, do so due to some random mutation, which was LATER chosen by natural selection.



stick... I agree with the rest