Deadlifts and Lat involvement

[paul e]

I see how deadlifts strengthens the core, quads, and lower back... What I dont see is, why are deadlifts listed as Lat improvers..

To build a muscle, dont we generally need to perform both an eccentric and a concentric part of a lift? We need to contract it, and stretch it, under the tension of resistance.. Ok, cool..

Enter the deadlift. The quads expand and contract to get the weight off the ground, as does the lower back, in helping us straighten up from the lower squat position.

But what do the lats do in this exercise? They are stretched to the max, true. But wheres the contraction? How can they grow without performing concentric part? How would saying DLs prompt Lats to grow, be any different than saying hanging from a chinup bar grows lats?

What am I missing?

[Defiant1]

I see how deadlifts strengthens the core, quads, and lower back... What I dont see is, why are deadlifts listed as Lat improvers..

To build a muscle, dont we generally need to perform both an eccentric and a concentric part of a lift? We need to contract it, and stretch it, under the tension of resistance.. Ok, cool..

Enter the deadlift. The quads expand and contract to get the weight off the ground, as does the lower back, in helping us straighten up from the lower squat position.

But what do the lats do in this exercise? They are stretched to the max, true. But wheres the contraction? How can they grow without performing concentric part? How would saying DLs prompt Lats to grow, be any different than saying hanging from a chinup bar grows lats?

What am I missing?

You're right. If one rounds their back, you will get Lat contraction holding the weight against the body (just a little more than isometric), but not enough to say it is a primary exercise. I don't even agree that they are stretched. To stretch the lats the arms have to be over the head.

I have NEVER seen Deadlifts as a "Lat" exercise until I came on this site. If one has a GREAT mind to muscle connection on Lats (which is rare) I guess you could feel them, but I suspect it is just people parroting what others say. BACK THICKNESS is not the same as LAT TRAINING or LAT THICKNESS.

[geoffsherman]

I would not consider deadlifts to be great at hitting the lats.

However, I would not define an exercise as "a lift with a concentric and eccentric portion" as that would eliminate almost all forearm exercises (static holds, farmer's walk, etc.) as well as some other effective exercises that I have used.

[Danimal]

When I'm doing max effort deads or rack pulls, I can feel it big time in my lats. They are not a mover in the lift but play a big role as a stabilizer. Just like your ab or obliques are not big movers in the deadlift but get worked hard from their role as stabilizers.

[Flex500]

hmmm, my lats are fully contracted from the moment the weight leaves the floor to the top of the movement.

[paul e]

You're right. If one rounds their back, you will get Lat contraction holding the weight against the body (just a little more than isometric), but not enough to say it is a primary exercise. I don't even agree that they are stretched. To stretch the lats the arms have to be over the head.

I have NEVER seen Deadlifts as a "Lat" exercise until I came on this site. If one has a GREAT mind to muscle connection on Lats (which is rare) I guess you could feel them, but I suspect it is just people parroting what others say. BACK THICKNESS is not the same as LAT TRAINING or LAT THICKNESS.

I saw it first when studying Jeff Willet's training journal over at the AST board.. Look at a back workout he frequently uses as part of his Max-OT program:

Back:

Deadlifts....1 x 6 @ 415 lbs, 1 x 5 @ 425 lbs (After warm-up)

Weighted Pull-ups....2 x 6 @ 55 lbs (After acclimation set)

Pull-downs....2 x 5 @ 275 lbs

Bent-over Rows....1 x 6 @ 275 lbs, 1 x 4 @ 285 lbs (After Weight Acclimation)

Traps:

Barbell Shrugs....1 x 5 @ 415 lbs, 1 x 4 @ 415 lbs (After Weight Acclimation)


Thats it.. Jeff uses Deadlifts as 1/4 of his Back workout volume! I dont know. maybe hes using it for his lower back. That I can see. With pullups and pulldowns that hes doing, this certainly doesnt have to be used for lats, as some guys seem to do. I guess Ive been disounting the value of isometric resistance a bit.. The forearm example is a good one. I dont do any specific forearm exercises, yet theyre definitely larger, mostly from back and bicep workouts. Still, I cant imagine that isometric exercises are as effective as conventional eccentric/concentric resistance exercising. Guess Im going to have to read up more about it.

[Danimal]

I saw it first when studying Jeff Willet's training journal over at the AST board.. Look at a back workout he frequently uses as part of his Max-OT program:

Back:

Deadlifts....1 x 6 @ 415 lbs, 1 x 5 @ 425 lbs (After warm-up)

Weighted Pull-ups....2 x 6 @ 55 lbs (After acclimation set)

Pull-downs....2 x 5 @ 275 lbs

Bent-over Rows....1 x 6 @ 275 lbs, 1 x 4 @ 285 lbs (After Weight Acclimation)

Traps:

Barbell Shrugs....1 x 5 @ 415 lbs, 1 x 4 @ 415 lbs (After Weight Acclimation)


Thats it.. Jeff uses Deadlifts as 1/4 of his Back workout volume! I dont know. maybe hes using it for his lower back. That I can see. With pullups and pulldowns that hes doing, this certainly doesnt have to be used for lats, as some guys seem to do. I guess Ive been disounting the value of isometric resistance a bit.. The forearm example is a good one. I dont do any specific forearm exercises, yet theyre definitely larger, mostly from back and bicep workouts. Still, I cant imagine that isometric exercises are as effective as conventional eccentric/concentric resistance exercising. Guess Im going to have to read up more about it.

Thats a pretty typical deadlift workout. From a powerlifting aspect, mine is very similar to that.

[Defiant1]

I saw it first when studying Jeff Willet's training journal over at the AST board.. Look at a back workout he frequently uses as part of his Max-OT program:

Back:

Deadlifts....1 x 6 @ 415 lbs, 1 x 5 @ 425 lbs (After warm-up)

Weighted Pull-ups....2 x 6 @ 55 lbs (After acclimation set)

Pull-downs....2 x 5 @ 275 lbs

Bent-over Rows....1 x 6 @ 275 lbs, 1 x 4 @ 285 lbs (After Weight Acclimation)

Traps:

Barbell Shrugs....1 x 5 @ 415 lbs, 1 x 4 @ 415 lbs (After Weight Acclimation)


Thats it.. Jeff uses Deadlifts as 1/4 of his Back workout volume! I dont know. maybe hes using it for his lower back. That I can see. With pullups and pulldowns that hes doing, this certainly doesnt have to be used for lats, as some guys seem to do. I guess Ive been disounting the value of isometric resistance a bit.. The forearm example is a good one. I dont do any specific forearm exercises, yet theyre definitely larger, mostly from back and bicep workouts. Still, I cant imagine that isometric exercises are as effective as conventional eccentric/concentric resistance exercising. Guess Im going to have to read up more about it.

He is probably doing them for thickness for muscles along the spine, which they certainly work.

He does 3 lat exercises after that.

[T82]

but I suspect it is just people parroting what others say.

Interesting idea...

[htownsb]

I think it depends on your body structure. I was doing Lat Pullodowns for the first year I started lifting and I didnt notice any gains at all. Then one very knowledgeable friend introduced me to the deadlift.
Because of my curved clavicle and long, ectomorphic frame, deadlift was the best mass exercise for me. After 2 workouts I could flare my lats. From then on my back workouts have consisted solely of deadlifts. Muscle insertion points determine what are the best exercises for you.

[ATrainer]

Enter the deadlift. The quads expand and contract to get the weight off the ground, as does the lower back, in helping us straighten up from the lower squat position.

But what do the lats do in this exercise? They are stretched to the max, true. But wheres the contraction? How can they grow without performing concentric part? How would saying DLs prompt Lats to grow, be any different than saying hanging from a chinup bar grows lats?

What am I missing?

You made the most important point. The lats are not in a position to concetrically, or eccentrically for that matter, contract during a DL. Anyone who says their lats are getting bigger from DLs is plain wrong. Sorry to be so blunt, but it just ain't gonna happen.

[k0rup7]

You made the most important point. The lats are not in a position to concetrically, or eccentrically for that matter, contract during a DL. Anyone who says their lats are getting bigger from DLs is plain wrong. Sorry to be so blunt, but it just ain't gonna happen.

ATrainer, I think this is a perfect opportunity for you to plug the lat shrugs! They're amazing........ so please, proceed!

[Defiant1]

You made the most important point. The lats are not in a position to concetrically, or eccentrically for that matter, contract during a DL. Anyone who says their lats are getting bigger from DLs is plain wrong. Sorry to be so blunt, but it just ain't gonna happen.

What's up ATrainer, haven't seen you in awhile (actually, I was off for awhile)

[Flex500]

You made the most important point. The lats are not in a position to concetrically, or eccentrically for that matter, contract during a DL. Anyone who says their lats are getting bigger from DLs is plain wrong. Sorry to be so blunt, but it just ain't gonna happen.

well I see where you are comming from but if you put your hand on my back or anyones who is doing the conventional deadlift you can feel the lats hard as a rock. When I deadlift 600 pounds my lats, traps, and erector spinae are on fire.

[paul e]

well I see where you are comming from but if you put your hand on my back or anyones who is doing the conventional deadlift you can feel the lats hard as a rock. When I deadlift 600 pounds my lats, traps, and erector spinae are on fire.

And I bet if you feel someones lats who is in the middle of a benchpress set, theyll be hard as a rock too. .but you wouldnt try and make the case that benchpresses are growing your lats would you?

[Defiant1]

I think the consensus is that for most people, Deadlifts will effect the lats, but not as a primary exercise. In the same way the squats effect the calves, but are not going to be a main exercise for them.

[ATrainer]

And I bet if you feel someones lats who is in the middle of a benchpress set, theyll be hard as a rock too. .but you wouldnt try and make the case that benchpresses are growing your lats would you?

I couldn't have said better.

Hey Defiant, nice to see you back. I drop in from time to time. Selective on my posts these days.

[Jneves]

I don't even agree that they are stretched. To stretch the lats the arms have to be over the head.

so you don't believe bent over rows hit the lats either?

You can get a stretch in the lats without your arms over your head... I hope you were meaning a FULL stretch of the lats.

Depending on your body position in the deadlift lat involvement can be great or minimal. Obviously the more upright you are the more weight will be supported by the traps, but as your upper body gets more horizontal it starts bring the lats in more and more. I guess I also agree it may not be a main exercise for the lats... but if you dealift seriously it will have a benifit to every muscle on your back (most people can expose there back to loads with the deadlift they wouldnt be able to with other exercises even if its just for an isometric hold)

[paul e]

so you don't believe bent over rows hit the lats either?

You can get a stretch in the lats without your arms over your head... I hope you were meaning a FULL stretch of the lats.

Depending on your body position in the deadlift lat involvement can be great or minimal. Obviously the more upright you are the more weight will be supported by the traps, but as your upper body gets more horizontal it starts bring the lats in more and more. I guess I also agree it may not be a main exercise for the lats... but if you dealift seriously it will have a benifit to every muscle on your back (most people can expose there back to loads with the deadlift they wouldnt be able to with other exercises even if its just for an isometric hold)

>>You can get a stretch in the lats without your arms over your head... I hope you were meaning a FULL stretch of the lats.<<

Im sure thats what he meant.

>>Depending on your body position in the deadlift lat involvement can be great or minimal<<

But I think we would both stop short of saying that for most people, the deadlift as a motion causes 'great lat involvement'.. IT may cause a big lat Stretch along the way.. But without a semblance of range of motion for the lats, I dont see how it could ever be deemed a great lat exercise.

Let me ask you this. YOu do shrugs? Assuming affirmative, when you shrug with a heavy barbell, your arms are stretched and tensed, but the rom goes to your traps, not your bis.. Would you call a shrug a Great Bicep grower? Then why is a deadlift a great Lat grower?

EDIT**** And yet, to make the point youre probably thinking of, our forearms grow without doing any special forearm exercises, just from doing bicep curls, and from doing back rowing motions... And here, there is no special rom directed at the forearms, and yet, they grow... I suppose in this manner DLs grow the lats. But still, its an aux exercise for lats, not primary, and id say that about the forearm thing too, so at least, its consistant.

[Defiant1]

so you don't believe bent over rows hit the lats either?

I'm not sure of your logic. You apparantly have not read my other posts. Bent over rows are one of the best lat exercises. I didnt' say you couldn't work a muscle without stretching it. My stretching comment was in relation to what paul e said.

You can get a stretch in the lats without your arms over your head... I hope you were meaning a FULL stretch of the lats.

Depending on your body position in the deadlift lat involvement can be great or minimal. Obviously the more upright you are the more weight will be supported by the traps, but as your upper body gets more horizontal it starts bring the lats in more and more. I guess I also agree it may not be a main exercise for the lats... but if you dealift seriously it will have a benifit to every muscle on your back (most people can expose there back to loads with the deadlift they wouldnt be able to with other exercises even if its just for an isometric hold)

The whole point of this discussion is people describing deadlifts as a primary lat exercise. Deadlifts are not. Load has no virtue of it's own. Targeted load is what is important. If it did, then 1/16 squats would be the ultimate thigh developer over full squats.

[lonewolfshome]

If we are to start with the basics, then we better begin with the granddaddy of back training exercises, the BENT OVER BAR ROW. You thought I was going to say DEADLIFTS, didn’t you? Guess what? The deadlift, when done correctly, is not an absolute back movement. Take a moment and analyze the movement; either regular style or sumu style. Most of the movement incorporates leg and glute muscles especially on the initial pull. Why, do you think powerlifting guru Loui Simmons preaches doing box squats as an auxiliary movement for deadlifts? I know, all you self-proclaimed open book certified test taking experts think I am full of BS! Well, maybe I am, but if you take a biomechanics or kinesiology class, or even ask an ELITE-World Champion powerlifter than you will realize that the deadlift is not a total back exercise. Now, Lets get back to bent-over bar rows, you can do either reverse grip, or regular overhand grip...................yep i posted this just not long ago.....hmmmmm

[BernieD]

When I'm doing max effort deads or rack pulls, I can feel it big time in my lats. They are not a mover in the lift but play a big role as a stabilizer. Just like your ab or obliques are not big movers in the deadlift but get worked hard from their role as stabilizers.

agreed...I think it partially depends on how heavy you go. My deadlift numbers aren't all that high right now, so maybe I'll start feeling it more in my lats and overall upper back more when I get heavier, but for rack pulls, when I go a lot heavier, my lats will definitely feel it, no question

[JNo20]

Deadlifts are one of my favorite back exercises, which I've said numerous times here. I don't view the deadlift as a primary lat exercise, but my lats have gotten much harder and thicker since regularly doing heavy deadlifting. I think what a lot of people don't realize is that the erector spinae go from the base of the back all the way up to the neck. So while people say it's a lower back exercise, while that's true, that muscle travels the length of the spine. So by thickening that muscle, it's going to add thickness to the entire back. Whether or not there's a scientific study supporting or disproving anything I believe, the bottom line is that deadlifts are a tremendous exercise for my back, especially in the thickness department.

[paul e]

The reason Ive had a hard time understanding how deads can be a good lat builder is because, simply, there is no contraction to the lift. Its a stabelizer, and it can stretch the lats like crazy.. But how can a given movement be a primary exercise for a given muscle if there is no concentric or eccentric part of the lift ? No contraction...

Heres one.. why is it any better for the lats than it is for the biceps? In both cases, sure, it stretches the hell out of each. But with no contraction, the bis dont grow.. so why do the lats? Wheres the difference?

[Defiant1]

The reason Ive had a hard time understanding how deads can be a good lat builder is because, simply, there is no contraction to the lift. Its a stabelizer, and it can stretch the lats like crazy.. But how can a given movement be a primary exercise for a given muscle if there is no concentric or eccentric part of the lift ? No contraction...

Heres one.. why is it any better for the lats than it is for the biceps? In both cases, sure, it stretches the hell out of each. But with no contraction, the bis dont grow.. so why do the lats? Wheres the difference?

What, are you trying to start a fist fight?

For more controversy, try this:

My friend says HIT is better than DC so he put DCs routine on the teen site. Is this good?

[$AJ]

hmmm, my lats are fully contracted from the moment the weight leaves the floor to the top of the movement.

same

[JNo20]

What, are you trying to start a fist fight?

For more controversy, try this:

My friend says HIT is better than DC so he put DCs routine on the teen site. Is this good?

lol

[$AJ]

What, are you trying to start a fist fight?

For more controversy, try this:

My friend says HIT is better than DC so he put DCs routine on the teen site. Is this good?

lmao

[Tyrbolift]

The reason Ive had a hard time understanding how deads can be a good lat builder is because, simply, there is no contraction to the lift. Its a stabelizer, and it can stretch the lats like crazy.. But how can a given movement be a primary exercise for a given muscle if there is no concentric or eccentric part of the lift ? No contraction...

Heres one.. why is it any better for the lats than it is for the biceps? In both cases, sure, it stretches the hell out of each. But with no contraction, the bis dont grow.. so why do the lats? Wheres the difference?

Paul E, Where were you when there was about 5 threads about getting a "v" shape and people kept chiming in "deadlifts", "rows", "heavy" ?

[paul e]

hmmm, my lats are fully contracted from the moment the weight leaves the floor to the top of the movement.

Ok.. cmon folks... lets get real here.. Pray tell.. if your lats are fully contracted when doing dead lifts, then what are they when your doing bent over rows? Just because there is tension on them, which is what youre feeling with deadlifts, doesnt mean they are fully contracted. they most certainly are NOT fully contracted when doing deadlifts. To be contracted, you need to complete a range of motion. during the dl, wheres the range of motion .. Hello?@@!

As I said before, its no different than saying you have complete contraction in your bicep, before you start to curl it! Or saying your traps are fully contracted BEFORE YOU SHRUG!