Help me with my Back routine?

[paul e]

Guys, I need to gain lat strength.. I still have to use about 20-30 lbs of assist on the assist Pullup station. And of course my goal is to do them unassisted.

Heres my back routine. I do Max-OT which would explain the number of sets and reps I do.

3 sets of bent over platform T-BAR rows.
2 sets assist pull ups (20 lbs assist)
1 set wide grip lat pulldowns to the front
1 set lat pulldowns to the rear (removes bicep from movement)
2 sets Hammer Strength alternate seated rows.

These are all Heavy workout sets. Before I start counting these sets, I do about 4-5 warmup/weight acclimation sets, to make sure Im going as heavy as I can on the above workout sets.

I do this back workout once per week. In between back workouts, I usually use Sunday to do Deadlifts. I do 3 sets of conventional deadlifts 2 or 3 times per month, on sundays. So, thats another back exerciser I do.

Max-Ot allows 6-9 sets per body part, each done with enough weight to allow just 4-6 reps. Which means, each rep is done with max intensity, and the set is done either to failure or one rep shy of failure.. Hence, 'only' a max of 9 sets allowed. I ve had very good results using Max-OT, and even my back, which iM looking for help on, has broadened considerably.

If you can think of any exercises I should subsitute for what Im doing, Id love to hear it. I want to get to be able to do pullups Unassisted. Ive been lowering the assist, so I know ultimately, Ill get to zero assist, probably within a month. AT least, I hope so. When I started with Dips for my pecs, I had to use 30 lbs of assist there too. .Now, im about ready to start adding plates to the weight belt So theres no reason to expect that the same thing wont happen here. I hope! thanks ...

[Dominik]

Paul, just stay focused on your goals. I really like seeing people motivated in the early stages because I know it's their best chance of getting to where they want to be. With that said...

I think chins are a fantastic compound back exercise that you should do with both normal and close grips including reverse chinups ("pullups"), however what I consider the king of back exercises simply because it transformed mine is rows. Specifically bent-over barbell rows. Considering you're still working your way up in strength I think seated rows would be an excellent one to add, along with the T-Bar rows you're already doing. One-arm DB rows might be worth adding to isolate each side so you can focus on your rowing technique.

The main things you have to focus on are keeping your back straight for safety reasons, and getting a strong contraction by pulling back your elbows and squeezing your shoulder blades together. Try to visualize exactly what is going on with each repetition so you're not just going through the motions. And above all, don't rush things with the weight. Form first, weight second. Good luck.

[DrDave]

Paul, just stay focused on your goals. I really like seeing people motivated in the early stages because I know it's their best chance of getting to where they want to be. With that said...

I think chins are a fantastic compound back exercise that you should do with both normal and close grips including reverse chinups ("pullups"), however what I consider the king of back exercises simply because it transformed mine is rows. Specifically bent-over barbell rows. Considering you're still working your way up in strength I think seated rows would be an excellent one to add, along with the T-Bar rows you're already doing. One-arm DB rows might be worth adding to isolate each side so you can focus on your rowing technique.

The main things you have to focus on are keeping your back straight for safety reasons, and getting a strong contraction by pulling back your elbows and squeezing your shoulder blades together. Try to visualize exactly what is going on with each repetition so you're not just going through the motions. And above all, don't rush things with the weight. Form first, weight second. Good luck.

This is very good advice. I also agree on the importance of heavy rows in developing a dense, thick back. Personally I either do 30 pullups or 4 sets of wide grip lat pulldowns, and the rest of my workout is all very heavy rows.

Paul, as far as reaching your goal for pullups, I would try doing wide grip pulldowns Max-OT style and put them first in your workout. Get the wrist wraps out, get pumped, do some warmups and then go HEAVY. As long as you wait for the weight to be still at the top, you can use as much english as you need to get it down, just dont use the momentum of the weight stack to move the bar. Do this for a few weeks and then go back and try the pullups. And dont get down on yourself, pullups are the hardest exercise to do and some of the biggest guys in your gym im sure either cant do them, or can only do a few. Good luck!

Just as a P.S., Max OT is a wonderful training philosophy. It makes sense physiologically and I've had great results from it. The only drawback is that you shouldnt do it for more than 6 weeks at a time, or at least just listen to your body. If you're truly using Max OT, you're joints and tendons wont be able to handle it for extended periods of time. A while back I went from using 100 lb dumbells on incline presses to 130's in a month utilizing the Max OT strategies and a good supplement plan. Once I plateaued with the 130's and was doing 6-8 reps workout after workout I definitely started to get some pain in my shoulders. That was toward the end of my last bulk, so I dropped the creatine and andro, along with some of the weight I used for my exercises. Basically I ended up using 80% of my Max OT weight for 8-10 reps. Just be careful and train smart.

[paul e]

Paul, just stay focused on your goals. I really like seeing people motivated in the early stages because I know it's their best chance of getting to where they want to be. With that said...

I think chins are a fantastic compound back exercise that you should do with both normal and close grips including reverse chinups ("pullups"), however what I consider the king of back exercises simply because it transformed mine is rows. Specifically bent-over barbell rows. Considering you're still working your way up in strength I think seated rows would be an excellent one to add, along with the T-Bar rows you're already doing. One-arm DB rows might be worth adding to isolate each side so you can focus on your rowing technique.

The main things you have to focus on are keeping your back straight for safety reasons, and getting a strong contraction by pulling back your elbows and squeezing your shoulder blades together. Try to visualize exactly what is going on with each repetition so you're not just going through the motions. And above all, don't rush things with the weight. Form first, weight second. Good luck.

>>One-arm DB rows might be worth adding to isolate each side so you can focus on your rowing technique<<

Thats what I use the Hammer Strength machine for This is a fantastic machine. You sit in it with your chest up against the pad. When you reach out, both the left and right sides have their own, separate levers.. there are about 5 ways to grip the levers for different focus. Im using 90 lbs on each side, and I find I prefer doing them one side at a time. So, Ill do 6 hard pulls with the right hand, and then with the left, and then rest.. thats a set. And Ill do two of them, each set ending in near failure.. Thats how I like to finish my back workout.. i know alot of guys like to finish a body part up with something like a drop set, or burning out the part with lighter weight and high reps.. But I eschew this, for one main reason; I think it hurts the mind-muscle connection. Id rather leave the body part-mind connection in tact, with a strong, intense, low vol set to finish up, so that next time, the connection has already been established to build on , for increased progressive overload. The max-ot 165 pg guide has alot on this issue, and right or wrong, it sure sounds good

I really appreciate the support, and guidance thats in your response. One comment I want to make on lat pulldowns. I dont know if anyone else has experienced this.. But, of the 3 ways I usually do them, or choose from to do, theres only one way Ive found which really removes bicep the most, from the exercise. Its turning around on the seat, facing Away from the machine, using a wide grip bar, and lowering the weight to the nape of my neck.. .. I find it much easier to pull strictly with the lats.. The elbows move strictly vertical, from high to low, and there is virtually no bicep involvement You can try this sitting right in your chair where you are now.. First, simulate a normal wide grip front lat pulldown.. Lean back slightly about 25 degrees, and simulate pulling to the top of your thrust out chest. Imagine 140 lbs of weight in the stack that you are pulling, or pick an imaginary weight that you can pull, but which you have to work a bit for. Now, imagine you are doing a rear lat pulldown, facing Away from the machine. First, youll be staight up and down. Your forearms are perpinduclar to the ground, but the plain they are in is moved backwards, even with your shoulders. YOu can almost define the plane from your left hand through your left delt, through your traps, and out the other side, so that the whole pulling body mechanism is in the most rearward plane you can, without injury. Then, just duck your head forward a bit and imagine pulling down only with your lats, til the bar touches the rear of your neck. Cant you feel how the biceps are almost totally removed? When I do them, I feel it all in my lats, like my lats are forcing the bar down, and nothing else is pulling.. Thats a far cry from when i do them to the front, where I cant help but feel it in the upper forearm area.

I dont know if its just me, but I love doing them to the rear because thats one of the very few back exercises I can do that doesnt hit my forearms and lower bis hard. Maybe, once I can do full pullups, palms forward, I can do some sets to the rear also, like this.. I know guys shy away because of injury. Hell.. I stopped doing delt presses to the rear for this reason. But Ive never had a problem doing rear pulldowns. If you do, maybe try turning around in the seat facing away from the machine.. That might help you to get the full effect of doing them to the rear. Its the way I can best accomplish what you say in your last paragraph: "The main things you have to focus on are keeping your back straight for safety reasons, and getting a strong contraction by pulling back your elbows and squeezing your shoulder blades together"

[paul e]

This is very good advice. I also agree on the importance of heavy rows in developing a dense, thick back. Personally I either do 30 pullups or 4 sets of wide grip lat pulldowns, and the rest of my workout is all very heavy rows.

Paul, as far as reaching your goal for pullups, I would try doing wide grip pulldowns Max-OT style and put them first in your workout. Get the wrist wraps out, get pumped, do some warmups and then go HEAVY. As long as you wait for the weight to be still at the top, you can use as much english as you need to get it down, just dont use the momentum of the weight stack to move the bar. Do this for a few weeks and then go back and try the pullups. And dont get down on yourself, pullups are the hardest exercise to do and some of the biggest guys in your gym im sure either cant do them, or can only do a few. Good luck!

Just as a P.S., Max OT is a wonderful training philosophy. It makes sense physiologically and I've had great results from it. The only drawback is that you shouldnt do it for more than 6 weeks at a time, or at least just listen to your body. If you're truly using Max OT, you're joints and tendons wont be able to handle it for extended periods of time. A while back I went from using 100 lb dumbells on incline presses to 130's in a month utilizing the Max OT strategies and a good supplement plan. Once I plateaued with the 130's and was doing 6-8 reps workout after workout I definitely started to get some pain in my shoulders. That was toward the end of my last bulk, so I dropped the creatine and andro, along with some of the weight I used for my exercises. Basically I ended up using 80% of my Max OT weight for 8-10 reps. Just be careful and train smart.

Oh man, Im glad I found someone who feels the way I do about it.. This last cycle, I could barely make it to 8 wks before I had to take my scheduled recuperation week. I was so overtrained, just doing 3 days per week, 2 body parts per session, that I couldnt sleep, I was cranky, and just had all the overtraining symptoms.. Hey.. Maybe thats why they call it Max-OT.. for max OverTraining! ... LOL . Seriously though, going that heavy all the time works very well at building muscle.. But, it also requires you to adhere to the 6-9 set max body part total, and the 4-6 rep max level. more than that, and your begging to be overtrained soon. At least, if your natural. I see you have Drol in your mix, so thats got to make it easier for you.. All Im taking is DHEA, besides the usual creatine, whey, nitrous, etc.. Im going to start a cycle of Novedex-xt soon, so maybe that will help with the recuperation.

>>Basically I ended up using 80% of my Max OT weight for 8-10 reps<<

You know, Ive found myself slipping into that if Im feeling overtrained.. In other words, instead of adhering strictly to the 4-6 rep before failure mandate, I sometimes allow myself to stay with a weight til I can bang out 8 reps with it before increasing say 5%, causing me to go back to using 4 reps before failure.. I may then stay with that weight til I can get 8 reps again, not 6, the way it is with strict max-ot.. Im hoping that will help to decrease the tendency to overtrain.. Sounds like you do this to sometimes. Thanks alot for the response.

>>As long as you wait for the weight to be still at the top, you can use as much english as you need to get it down, just dont use the momentum of the weight stack to move the bar<<

As for going really heavy with the lat pulldowns.. I find that, doing them to the front, if I use too much weight, I have a tendency to swing back and forth, ie, go too far back, like 45 degrees or beyond, even, and pull it down with my body instead of my lats.. I hate that.. Ill lighten up the wt if I find I need to do that to get it down. If im going to use the lat pulldown station as a 45 degree row station, I think id rather do seated rows!

One more question. I see some guys with huge lats starting their back workout at the T-bar station. After a warmup, theyll throw on the 45s like nothing, and crank out the reps.. Maybe 3 sets heavy. Only after that, do they proceed to the lat pulldown stations.. Do you see any problem with starting my workout with the T-bar station, and then progressing to the Lat pullups/downs? Or should I start fresh with the pullup/downs? Which is going to give me the bigger mass, keeping in mind I cant do the pullups yet completely unassisted.. Which is going to get me there, ie, unassisted, first, and, a bigger wingspan? Thanks again.

[sabonis224]

Just a thought, I think machines are pretty bad for back training. Why use a machine for rows, when you can just do one arm dumbbell rows? You would probably get better results from those.

[BernieD]

^yea, I dunno though...Not sure if the T-bar row counts as a machine or not, but I love em!

[$AJ]

^yea, I dunno though...Not sure if the T-bar row counts as a machine or not, but I love em!

is it done free-weight or with/in a machine......duh

[paul e]

Just a thought, I think machines are pretty bad for back training. Why use a machine for rows, when you can just do one arm dumbbell rows? You would probably get better results from those.

There are machines, and there are machines.. I know alot of guys love the Hammer Strength machines... Instead of using dumbell rows, I like the HammerStrength implementation. With the left and right sides totally indepentant, its easy to focus on one side and then the other.. With alt db rows, as soon as guys go heavy, they have a tendency to really jack the body into it, and swing the weight up using every muscle theyve got. I find it a little easier to control the weight with the HS machines. But guys who dont like machines will probably object to it on the same grounds they object to all machines, so, I dont know.

As for the T bar, I dont think you HAVE to use a dumbell or barbell for it to be a free wt exercise. Or for it to be effective.. As weve already seen, pullups are damned effective. As are dips. And not a DB or BB in sight. As for Tbars, this one is a platform with a pad, which you lean on with your chest, your legs either down, or behind you, feet either resting on the floor, of if youre shorter, on one of two feet resting platforms. .. Your reach down, and grab one of two possible pairs of handles on the Tbar lever, which is resting on its rest point, onto which are stacked your barbell plates. To use, you lift the bar off its rest over to the left, move it over to the right to the center, and begin rowing it, trying not to lift your torso too high off the padded platform. The way you use it will be determined to some degree, by how well you fit the aparatus, as there are no adjustments to be made. All I know is that some of the biggest guys in the gym start their back workouts with this Tbar station, and dont leave it til theyve hoisted a prodigious amount of 45 lb plates first. Prior to my seeing this, I didnt even use that station.. I stuck mostly to the assist pullup and pulldown stations, using all kinds of angles, and from there, spent some time at the seated cable row station. On both stations, id use the same: about 140 lbs to do sets of 4-6 with. Adding the Tbar pull, and the Hammer strength machines I think, rounded out my routine nicely.. Im sure before long, Ill have some nice gains to show for it. Thanks for the advice.

[DrDave]

One more question. I see some guys with huge lats starting their back workout at the T-bar station. After a warmup, theyll throw on the 45s like nothing, and crank out the reps.. Maybe 3 sets heavy. Only after that, do they proceed to the lat pulldown stations.. Do you see any problem with starting my workout with the T-bar station, and then progressing to the Lat pullups/downs? Or should I start fresh with the pullup/downs? Which is going to give me the bigger mass, keeping in mind I cant do the pullups yet completely unassisted.. Which is going to get me there, ie, unassisted, first, and, a bigger wingspan? Thanks again.

Funny you should mention that. During my last Max OT cycle/bulk I always started with close grip T-bar rows. My heavy sets put me at 6 plates and gave me an incredible pump that lasted for the remainer of my workout. The only reason I've been starting with pullups recently is because of my doing months and months of heavy rows, my thickness is more pronounced than my width. It's also a little genetic as well. I never had problems with back thickness, and even though I got a little wider with the rows, I need to focus on wide grip pullups to hit my goal of 52".

Keep up the good work, and I do agree with sabonis. If you're up for it and feelin strong, always go for the freeweights, esp if you're doing Max OT. I use the Hammer Strength's sometimes when my lower back doesnt feel up to par, but other than that free weights will always rule when it comes to packing on mass. That being said I do like to finish my workouts sometimes with a Hammer Strength row machine (the weight stack, not plates), with a nice wide grip and go slow and really stretch on the way down and squeeze really hard on the way up. I've found that it give my rhomboids and traps that bumpy, mountainous look.