The Islamic view on the Trinity

[SYRIANKID]

Short, concise prose.

No cluttering of religious quotes, just a rational explanation.

This is one of the best pieces I could find to sum up the heart of the issue.

Islam and the Trinity

[American Snake]

Short, concise prose.

No cluttering of religious quotes, just a rational explanation.

This is one of the best pieces I could find to sum up the heart of the issue.

Islam and the Trinity

Its a loss for Islam if they deny the trinity.

[Physics is Fun]

Its a loss for Islam if they deny the trinity.

Its a loss for anyone if they accept it..

[American Snake]

Its a loss for anyone if they accept it..

Yeah? Explain

[TranceNRG]

Yeah? Explain

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...osophy+trinity

[American Snake]

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...osophy+trinity

Does your post in that thread answer anything? The trinity is not a Christian or Catholic concept. It is a symbolic representation of a Universal Concept.

It can be likened to the holy unit (trinity) of Mind, Body and Soul.

[TranceNRG]

Does your post in that thread answer anything? The trinity is not a Christian or Catholic concept. It is a symbolic representation of a Universal Concept.

It can be likened to the holy unit (trinity) of Mind, Body and Soul.

That thread is mainly about the biblical concept of trinity.
3 persons but 1 God.

Also, that thread doesn't answer anything, That is my non-religious reason why I do not believe in the biblical version of trinity.

[American Snake]

That thread is mainly about the biblical concept of trinity.
3 persons but 1 God.

Also, that thread doesn't answer anything, That is my non-religious reason why I do not believe in the biblical version of trinity.

Of course if you take the words literally, youll miss the point completely It is an esoteric symbolism of the reality of man's relation to God/spiritual.

[TranceNRG]

Of course if you take the words literally, youll miss the point completely It is an esoteric symbolism of the reality of man's relation to God/spiritual.

Ok
what you say is understandable.

But worhsipping Jesus as God is not

[American Snake]

Ok
what you say is understandable.

But worhsipping Jesus as God is not

Well, in the end no one knows. You can beleive what you want and let others do the same. You cant deny that millions upon millions have been spiritually saved, healed and rejuvanated through their beleif in Jesus as God. If one can find God's power through their belief through Jesus Christ...i see it as something very positive.

[TranceNRG]

Well, in the end no one knows. You can beleive what you want and let others do the same. You cant deny that millions upon millions have been spiritually saved, healed and rejuvanated through their beleif in Jesus as God. If one can find God's power through their belief through Jesus Christ...i see it as something very positive.

Everyone has the freedome ti choose what they wish.
no one should put a trigger to one's head.
But I'm sure many people would stop someone from jumping off a bridge even if he chose so.

now.. I'm not comparing the two together.
Sometimes someone doesn't have enough view points on a subjects and concludes something based on the limited amount that he does know.

For example, (again I'm not comparing the two) someone worships a goat as a God. I believe that it's a duty for me to at least tell him different view points and why I think it's wrong but it's not my duty to pull a gun to his head and ask him to convert.

if at the end he chose to continue worshipping the goat he can do so and he'll encounter the consequences himself.

[American Snake]

Everyone has the freedome ti choose what they wish.
no one should put a trigger to one's head.
But I'm sure many people would stop someone from jumping off a bridge even if he chose so.

now.. I'm not comparing the two together.
Sometimes someone doesn't have enough view points on a subjects and concludes something based on the limited amount that he does know.

For example, (again I'm not comparing the two) someone worships a goat as a God. I believe that it's a duty for me to at least tell him different view points and why I think it's wrong but it's not my duty to pull a gun to his head and ask him to convert.

if at the end he chose to continue worshipping the goat he can do so and he'll encounter the consequences himself.

Your analogies are very weak. Especially if you use Goat worship as an example lol. If people are getting miracles and are strengthened through their belief in Christ, what is there to criticize of it? If you are talking about limited amount of knowledge and information, i dont think anything tops your faith my friend. The exact same analogy can be mirrored upon you.

[TranceNRG]

Your analogies are very weak. Especially if you use Goat worship as an example lol. If people are getting miracles and are strengthened through their belief in Christ, what is there to criticize of it? If you are talking about limited amount of knowledge and information, i dont think anything tops your faith my friend. The exact same analogy can be mirrored upon you.

which is why discussions are good ways of putting ideas on the table.

If you notice on that thread, I kept it a non-religious debate, no Quran and no Bible verses.

But let's say all your life you believed there's a unicorn on mars and everything seemed to work fine for you with that belief and let's say I believed there's no unicorn on mars and it worked fine for me.

the FACT is there's either a unicorn or there isn't.
so only one of us is correct. We may not know which one of us is correct, but us not knowing doesn't change the truth.

so what we should do is set rules for discussing issues that we both agree on and analyze an issue.

I think that's a good way of eliminating false beliefs if not finding the truth.

Unfortunately the problems on forums are people are full of hollow pride and get agitated if others disagree with them.


I'm not sure if you have read Hylas vs Philonous dialogue by George Berkely, if not give it a shot, it's quite interesting.

[American Snake]

which is why discussions are good ways of putting ideas on the table.

If you notice on that thread, I kept it a non-religious debate, no Quran and no Bible verses.

But let's say all your life you believed there's a unicorn on mars and everything seemed to work fine for you with that belief and let's say I believed there's no unicorn on mars and it worked fine for me.

the FACT is there's either a unicorn or there isn't.
so only one of us is correct. We may not know which one of us is correct, but us not knowing doesn't change the truth.

so what we should do is set rules for discussing issues that we both agree on and analyze an issue.

I think that's a good way of eliminating false beliefs if not finding the truth.

Unfortunately the problems on forums are people are full of hollow pride and get agitated if others disagree with them.


I'm not sure if you have read Hylas vs Philonous dialogue by George Berkely, if not give it a shot, it's quite interesting.

Youre right. And since you nor anyone else cannot objectively prove or disprove other's beliefs, i would suggest you and SK stop doing it.

What is Hylas vs Philonous about?

[TranceNRG]

Youre right. And since you nor anyone else cannot objectively prove or disprove other's beliefs, i would suggest you and SK stop doing it.

stop doing what?!
put different ideas on the table?
correct misconceptions about Islam?
Discuss our view points?

What is Hylas vs Philonous about?

Hylas is a materialist and Philonous is an idealist.

Before they beging to discuss the issue they set rules for discussions and through those rules (mainly set by Hylas) Philonous gets the upperhand in disproving materialism.

quite ineteresting.

[American Snake]

stop doing what?!
put different ideas on the table?
correct misconceptions about Islam?
Discuss our view points?

.

Stop talking as tho Islam is irrefutable fact and that all other beliefs are somehow less accurate or faulty. You have no objectional proof or facts that can prove or disprove either.

[TranceNRG]

Stop talking as tho Islam is irrefutable fact and that all other beliefs are somehow less accurate or faulty. You have no objectional proof or facts that can prove or disprove either.

ok let's say we put our point on the table.
in order for you to reject it don't you need to disprove those points, rather than a blanket statement like "no one knows" or "everything is subjective"

To reject an idea without justifiable reasons is to believe in God just because your parents do. Both are quite weak.

so rather than telling us to stop, maybe we can discuss the points you disagree with in depth.

[American Snake]

ok let's say we put our point on the table.
in order for you to reject it don't you need to disprove those points, rather than a blanket statement like "no one knows" or "everything is subjective"
.

Please apply this statement to yourselves first, then we can talk

[TranceNRG]

Please apply this statement to yourselves first, then we can talk

That's what I did in case of trinity in that thread.

[American Snake]

You see, maybe you have more of an objective mind to view the big picture, and have constructive discussions. But discussing these things with someone like SK is pointless, since he believes that truth starts and ends within the pages of one book, written by who knows. Its no different than a scientologist who believes all that there is to know lies within the pages of a Dianetics book.

[TranceNRG]

You see, maybe you have more of an objective mind to view the big picture, and have constructive discussions. But discussing these things with someone like SK is pointless, since he believes that truth starts and ends within the pages of one book, written by who knows. Its no different than a scientologist who believes all that there is to know lies within the pages of a Dianetics book.

This is an idea of yours to believe that truth is not in those pages, correct?
so in fact you are quite similar to SK except with an opposite view.
He believes that book does contain truth you believe it does not.
SK has repeatedly stated why he does believe that book contains the truth, so he has set out his own justification behind his beliefs.
Have you set out clear justifications why you do NOT believe that book does contain the truth?

[American Snake]

This is an idea of yours to believe that truth is not in those pages, correct?
so in fact you are quite similar to SK except with an opposite view.
He believes that book does contain truth you believe it does not.
SK has repeatedly stated why he does believe that book contains the truth, so he has set out his own justification behind his beliefs.
Have you set out clear justifications why you do NOT believe that book does contain the truth?

I have not tried to prove or disprove Islam, since it cannot be done. I definitly do not agree with what is written in the pages of the Koran tho.

SK has not proven or disproven anything. His views are not based on any kind of objective reality and is soley based on faith. Faith is a subjective thing which cannot be proven or disproven. It is not my job to try and bring rationality to a mind that cannot think this way. Nor is a totally subjective mind qualified to discredit or judge other beliefs objectively. Resulting in a bunch of biased opinions equivalent to that of a pile of steaming dung

[TranceNRG]

I have not tried to prove or disprove Islam, since it cannot be done. I definitly do not agree with what is written in the pages of the Koran tho.

To falsify Islam all you need to do it falsify the Quran

Also, when you mention that YOU don't agree, doesn't mean that what is written in the book must be incorrect.
It's best to go over what you disagree with one by one.

SK has not proven or disproven anything. His views are not based on any kind of objective reality and is soley based on faith. Faith is a subjective thing which cannot be proven or disproven. It is not my job to try and bring rationality to a mind that cannot think this way. Nor is a totally subjective mind qualified to discredit or judge other beliefs objectively. Resulting in a bunch of biased opinions equivalent to that of a pile of steaming dung

What do you think is rational and why?
1000 years ago it was the most irrational arguement to say there's no God, now day by day more claim to be rational and reject the concept of God.
Also, when you mention a mind that cannot think, what do you mean?
Do you expect to think as you do? and to view world as you view it? What makes you think that he is not thinking when he choose to believe in something.


what is an unbias opinion?
the fact that you reject the truth in that book, would make your opinions about that book just as bias, correct?

[American Snake]

To falsify Islam all you need to do it falsify the Quran

Also, when you mention that YOU don't agree, doesn't mean that what is written in the book must be incorrect.
It's best to go over what you disagree with one by one.




What do you think is rational and why?
1000 years ago it was the most irrational arguement to say there's no God, now day by day more claim to be rational and reject the concept of God.
Also, when you mention a mind that cannot think, what do you mean?
Do you expect to think as you do? and to view world as you view it? What makes you think that he is not thinking when he choose to believe in something.


what is an unbias opinion?
the fact that you reject the truth in that book, would make your opinions about that book just as bias, correct?

This is why discussing religion ends up being more counter productive than productive as shown by most of the feedback you get. There is seriously no point going over every minute detail, since this is exactly what your faith prohibits. If we tried to rationally dissect the words of your belief, we would find it to be full of holes, something you 2 love to refute by saying it is God's creed; no ifs or buts. Childish responses from childish minds.

I dont expect you to think as i do in anyway. I just expect you to keep your slander of other faiths to yourselves, since whatever you say can be mirrored against yourselves. Just because i dont agree with your faith, doesnt mean i am going to condemn you to hell as you 2 love to upon others. That is not your job. Nor is it my job to make you believe in something else, unless you are searching for it.

[TranceNRG]

This is why discussing religion ends up being more counter productive than productive as shown by most of the feedback you get. There is seriously no point going over every minute detail, since this is exactly what your faith prohibits. If we tried to rationally dissect the words of your belief, we would find it to be full of holes, something you 2 love to refute by saying it is God's creed; no ifs or buts. Childish responses from childish minds.

so no matter how we try to converse we you, you'd still calls us names eh

Both SK and I and many more have repeatedly invited you and other to "rationally" (a subjective word) to dissect Islam and find holes please.
But when you do think you have found holes present them and we would state why we don't see those holes.
Don't say that's a hole without completely understanding our side.

I dont expect you to think as i do in anyway. I just expect you to keep your slander of other faiths to yourselves, since whatever you say can be mirrored against yourselves. Just because i dont agree with your faith, doesnt mean i am going to condemn you to hell as you 2 love to upon others. That is not your job. Nor is it my job to make you believe in something else, unless you are searching for it.

slander?
when has SK slander any religion?
Is it a slander if I say I do not agree with Trinity because of such and such?
It is not SK's personal opinion that condemns people.
Based on his beliefs those who disbelieve will be punished.
I'm sure you can find a similar belief in most religions.
Again, our job is to convey our religion not to put a gun to one's head and force him to convert, but it seems that many do not wish that.

I am always searching for the truth.
I have found it in Islam, if you think what I found is not the truth, then you should show me why you think so.
and not call us names "childish minds"

[Physics is Fun]

Yeah? Explain

Anyone who belives such manmade jibberish as the prominent religons are, should seriously examine theirselves...

[American Snake]

Anyone who belives such manmade jibberish as the prominent religons are, should seriously examine theirselves...

And here i thought you were going to give me some explanation with a hint of intellect

[Physics is Fun]

And here i thought you were going to give me some explanation with a hint of intellect

Sorry to disappoint you, here comes an intellectual explanation just for you:

Here is the problem. There is no such thing as god. Its a fairy tale that every human population has created. Is it coincidence that every single continent has a different religon, is it coincidence that they were seperated until just a couple of hundred years ago, is it coincidence that it would have been impossible for people on different continents to hear the other groups truth

[American Snake]

so no matter how we try to converse we you, you'd still calls us names eh

Both SK and I and many more have repeatedly invited you and other to "rationally" (a subjective word) to dissect Islam and find holes please.
But when you do think you have found holes present them and we would state why we don't see those holes.
Don't say that's a hole without completely understanding our side.

Not true. Every time i ever had a discussion, mostly with SK, on issues, it always ended up with a childish remark like "its Allah's word, and thats final" crap. You see, even SK said himself he cannot rationally discuss issues because one cannot rationalize God's mind. Of course 'if' that is God's word and not some overzealous human fabrication.

slander?
when has SK slander any religion?
Is it a slander if I say I do not agree with Trinity because of such and such?
It is not SK's personal opinion that condemns people.
Based on his beliefs those who disbelieve will be punished.
I'm sure you can find a similar belief in most religions.
Again, our job is to convey our religion not to put a gun to one's head and force him to convert, but it seems that many do not wish that.

Bull****. SK has slandered every other religion and culture, you name it. With much hostility, bordering on racism. To both of you, its not an issue about just dissagreeing. You justisfy yourself condemning others with an assumption that Islam is God's will. If you want to convey your religion to others, fine. But dont compare it to other belief systems, trying in vain to prove that Islam is somehow more 'legitimate'.

[TranceNRG]

Not true. Every time i ever had a discussion, mostly with SK, on issues, it always ended up with a childish remark like "its Allah's word, and thats final" crap. You see, even SK said himself he cannot rationally discuss issues because one cannot rationalize God's mind. Of course 'if' that is God's word and not some overzealous human fabrication.

when SK says what he says he's stating his belief.
when you say bull**** you state your belief.
if you think his belief is wrong (an dnot wrong simply because it doesn't suit your belief) question his beliefs, rather than rejecting it.
If you don't believe Quran is God's words question his belief on that rather than thinking it's irrational.

Bull****. SK has slandered every other religion and culture, you name it. With much hostility. To both of you, its not an issue about just dissagreeing. You justisfy yourself condemning others with an assumption that Islam is God's will. If you want to convey your religion to others, fine. But dont compare it to other belief systems, trying in vain to prove that Islam is somehow more 'legitimate'.

What is your definition of slander?
I can't think of anything SK has done to slander a religion.
What we do is based on our beliefs.

once again I cannot remember when SK has compared Islam with other religions to show Islam is right.
IN fact, if you do a search you might find that he is against comparing religions and he doesn't use religion comparing links to explain his beliefs.


so, can you show me some of this comparing and slandering that you believe we have done?

thanks