The Islamic view on the Trinity

**SYRIANKID** · 07-21-2005, 04:11 AM

Originally Posted by KhanPaulsen

Editted, I assumed you left with your leaving thread posted.

Nah, that was my "you have 48 hours to flame SK" warning thread.

**KhanPaulsen** · 07-21-2005, 04:14 AM

Originally Posted by SYRIANKID

Nah, that was my "you have 48 hours to flame SK" warning thread.

I left a trail of editted posts.

Go back, remark on them if so desired.

I am very curious to your claimed grievances, all I want to see is very simple proof and that is all.

You're indirectly (or perhaps directly, although I wouldn't like to think that) insulting Christians if you are saying that they have insulted you, when they never did.

**SYRIANKID** · 07-21-2005, 04:27 AM

Originally Posted by KhanPaulsen

I left a trail of editted posts.

Go back, remark on them if so desired.

I am very curious to your claimed grievances, all I want to see is very simple proof and that is all.

You're indirectly (or perhaps directly, although I wouldn't like to think that) insulting Christians if you are saying that they have insulted you, when they never did.

...Christians in this forum have been known to flame me, so what is so hard to believe about that? There's one now claiming he's a prophet.

Here's an example of a quote from a PM conversation I had with "Believer" from the forum:

"You and your faith are shameful"

But like I said, I don't CARE if you don't believe I was there. I was, I debated and found that people knew less about Islam there than here (which is saying something) and I get earfulls of insults about my religion and personal attacks to myself. It was a very sarcastic and godless environment.

HOWEVER, if you like, you can always ask me a question about Islam which you got from browsing that forum and I will answer it for you.

**KhanPaulsen** · 07-21-2005, 04:32 AM

Originally Posted by SYRIANKID

...Christians in this forum have been known to flame me, so what is so hard to believe about that? There's one now claiming he's a prophet

Here's an example of a quote from a PM conversation I had with "Believer" from the forum:

"You and your faith are shameful"

What happens in this forum is not necessarily an example of what a practicing Christian's behavior is. Labelling other Christians based on that person's actions is like me labelling all Muslims terrorists for someone's actions in the name of their religion.

I can assure you, as I am not of a deceitful nature, if you PM me the name of your handle there I will not release it, tell anyone about it, or bump threads on that board related to it. I want to see the physical proof. That is not my interest, I want to see your grievances for myself, not to judge, but to know that your criticizing Christians is with merit.

I can just as well say that a Muslim has told me, "Your beliefs are man-made, and you're going to be eternally punished by fire if you do not convert." This isn't too far from the truth in some cases.

"You and your faith are shameful" could have been a retort to any possible comments made by you. Show me the proof on that board, and I will bother you no longer about it.

The vast majority of Christians on that board DO NOT flame others. I've seen only one person do it frequently (Loki), the others debate in an intelligent manner.

All I ask is for proof, that's all. Nothing more, nothing less. I am not accusing you of lying, as if you give me clear evidence then you can't be lying, correct?

Broad, sweeping generalizations like you've made against Christians is how we receive a bad name, especially given there is nothing else put in addition to it.

Edit: A guy claiming he is a Christian prophet on this forum, to a Christian, has no more claim than Muhammed does to us (no offense).

**SYRIANKID** · 07-21-2005, 04:36 AM

Originally Posted by KhanPaulsen

I can assure you, as I am not of a deceitful nature, if you PM me the name of your handle there I will not release it, tell anyone about it, or bump threads on that board related to it.

I want to see the physical proof.

That is not my interest, I want to see your grievances for myself, not to judge, but to know that your criticizing Christians is with merit.

Broad, sweeping generalizations like you've made against Christians is how we receive a bad name, especially given there is nothing else put in addition to it.

Since you've assured me you'll keep your word, I'll PM you my forum name.

Secondly, I wasnt making sweeping generalizations about "Christians" but some members on that forum, which I actually believe are some of the most belligerent people I've ever discussed with.

**KhanPaulsen** · 07-21-2005, 04:49 AM

Originally Posted by SYRIANKID

Since you've assured me you'll keep your word, I'll PM you my forum name.

Secondly, I wasnt making sweeping generalizations about "Christians" but some members on that forum, which I actually believe are some of the most belligerent people I've ever discussed with.

Unfortunately belligerant people do things to alter the way our respective religions behave, I believe this applies to all faiths. Christians are `supposed` to tolerate other people, regardless of their ways, love them as brothers, and do their best to lead them towards The Truth. However, all men sin.

Yes, you have my word. Deception is evil.

**SYRIANKID** · 07-21-2005, 04:52 AM

Originally Posted by KhanPaulsen

Unfortunately belligerant people do things to alter the way our respective religions behave, I believe this applies to all faiths. Christians are `supposed` to tolerate other people, regardless of their ways, love them as brothers, and do their best to lead them towards The Truth. However, all men sin.

Yes, you have my word. Deception is evil.

And, since you think that forum is anything special, you have all of Thursday to ask me anything you like, and forty days to read whatever you want there and have ready to ask me about when I get back.

Nay, We will hurl the Truth at falsehood, and it shall smite it, and lo! it shall vanish. But woe be to you for the false things ye ascribe to Us (Qur'an 21:18)

**Cerulean** · 07-21-2005, 06:20 AM

hmmmmm. And I thought the Holy Trinity was sex, drugs, and rock n roll.

**nForce** · 07-21-2005, 08:31 AM

Thats my biggest flaw within christianity, I refuse to accept that Jesus was God, nor do i associate with a religion with so much contridictions etc, just looks like a joke

for now i remain religiouslessness? is there such a word

**KhanPaulsen** · 07-21-2005, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by nForce

Thats my biggest flaw within christianity, I refuse to accept that Jesus was God, nor do i associate with a religion with so much contridictions etc, just looks like a joke

for now i remain religiouslessness? is there such a word

The "contradictions" argument is the biggest joke possible. The `only` people that make this argument are people that haven't studied, and asked questions about the Bible.

Refuse what you will, you've turned away.

**theholyspirit** · 07-22-2005, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by SYRIANKID

Nay, We will hurl the Truth at falsehood, and it shall smite it, and lo! it shall vanish. But woe be to you for the false things ye ascribe to Us (Qur'an 21:18)

"AND WE WILL HURL GRENADES AT CHRISTIANS TOO...ESPECIALLY THE ONES THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO BE KILLED BY US TO LIVE FOREVER LIKE PREDICTED IN REVELATIONS...AND IF WE WERE THERE WE WOULD HAVE KILLED CHRIST TOO!!!...BUT I GUESS WE'll JUST HAVE TO KILL THOSE WHO HIS SPIRIT DWELLS IN INSTEAD AND MAYBE THEN WE'LL SHOW JESUS TO NOT SAY HE IS GOD'S SON!!!" (KORAN Summary)

**theholyspirit** · 07-22-2005, 12:12 PM

The old testament is unbreakable (Jesus says) it cannot be distorted and it predicts a jewish guy (not arab) being born in Bethlehem who would be executed who would convert the rest of the world to Judaism (but Judaism with a new set of rules). They also date it between certain events (Genesis 49:10) its FACT.

Oh yeh God says Deut 18:18 that that guy is the only time HE will come into people's presence again.

JESUS WAS GOD - LOOK AT THE BASIS FOR OUR TIME SYSTEM (ie 2005)

Originally Posted by nForce

Thats my biggest flaw within christianity, I refuse to accept that Jesus was God, nor do i associate with a religion with so much contridictions etc, just looks like a joke

for now i remain religiouslessness? is there such a word

**KhanPaulsen** · 07-22-2005, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by theholyspirit

The old testament is unbreakable (Jesus says) it cannot be distorted and it predicts a jewish guy (not arab) being born in Bethlehem who would be executed who would convert the rest of the world to Judaism (but Judaism with a new set of rules). They also date it between certain events (Genesis 49:10) its FACT.

Oh yeh God says Deut 18:18 that that guy is the only time HE will come into people's presence again.

JESUS WAS GOD - LOOK AT THE BASIS FOR OUR TIME SYSTEM (ie 2005)

This actually goes on to make an amusing point.

The only claims Islam has about a corrupted Torah is that there was no manuscipting of how it kept. They also think that somehow Jewish people would be less devoted, and earnest in keeping the Torah in tact (much with the same zealousy Islamic people do it). However, over 3,000 years the Torah continued to exist in different parts of the world (even isolated regions) in the EXACT SAME form.

They actually have ZERO PROOF that the Torah has been corrupted, it is all conjecture based on lack of evidence either way. Yet, you will always find them passing it off as the hard truth that it was corrupted.

If need be I can go pull information on how the Qu'ran was in fact tampered with in the early days of Islam.

**TranceNRG** · 07-22-2005, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by KhanPaulsen

This actually goes on to make an amusing point.

The only claims Islam has about a corrupted Torah is that there was no manuscipting of how it kept. They also think that somehow Jewish people would be less devoted, and earnest in keeping the Torah in tact (much with the same zealousy Islamic people do it). However, over 3,000 years the Torah continued to exist in different parts of the world (even isolated regions) in the EXACT SAME form.

They actually have ZERO PROOF that the Torah has been corrupted, it is all conjecture based on lack of evidence either way. Yet, you will always find them passing it off as the hard truth that it was corrupted.

If need be I can go pull information on how the Qu'ran was in fact tampered with in the early days of Islam.

http://www.themodernreligion.com/com...slim-view.html

http://www.quran.org.uk/out.php?LinkID=108

http://www.irf.net/irf/comparativere.../judaism/1.htm

http://www.ummah.org.uk/what-is-isla...ptur/torah.htm

http://www.beconvinced.com/en/articl...0&%20Juda%EEsm

Khan... I did a quick search and I found these.
look through them and let me know what you think.

peace

**TranceNRG** · 07-22-2005, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by KhanPaulsen

If need be I can go pull information on how the Qu'ran was in fact tampered with in the early days of Islam.

I invite you to do so.
You are welcomed to question Quran's validity

**KhanPaulsen** · 07-22-2005, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by TranceNRG

I invite you to do so.
You are welcomed to question Quran's validity

Why is it Caliph Othman ordered the burning of all Qu'rans that differed from his? Even the Companions of Muhammed didn't want to surrender their copies, whom actually had different verses contained within.

If you go around and burn all other copies that don't agree with one, then yes, you're going to get something validly original, because nothing contradicts it. Still one has to wonder WHY such an event occurred

Have fun, and good luck explaining that one. I'll go into goats, and other domesticated animals eating part of your Qu'rans scriptures due to lack of care later.

After that, we can get into the apocrypha contained in the Qu'ran. So let's start with this one mentioned above.

**TranceNRG** · 07-22-2005, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by KhanPaulsen

Why is it Caliph Othman ordered the burning of all Qu'rans that differed from his? Even the Companions of Muhammed didn't want to surrender their copies, whom actually had different verses contained within.

If you go around and burn all other copies that don't agree with one, then yes, you're going to get something validly original, because nothing contradicts it. Still one has to wonder WHY such an event occurred

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...&postcount=160

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...&postcount=173

**KhanPaulsen** · 07-22-2005, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by TranceNRG

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...&postcount=160

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...&postcount=173

I read them, if what he did was so correct then you have the problem of why Muhammed's own companions didn't want to surrender their own texts, containing different verses.

It isn't mentioned there, because a problem then crops up.

So the question I pose to you Trance, is: Why did Muhammed's own companions refuse to surrender their Qu'rans, which contained different verses from Othman's own? WHY DID THOSE QU'RANS DIFFER FROM OTHMAN'S IN THE FIRST PLACE?

All those links try to do is explain the necessity, not the, "Why?"

**KhanPaulsen** · 07-22-2005, 04:43 PM

You want the biggest whopping flaw in the Qu'ran?

The most important aspect of the entire Old Testament is the Blood Covenant God made with the Jews. It isn't mentioned ANYWHERE in the Qu'ran.

**TranceNRG** · 07-22-2005, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by KhanPaulsen

I read them, if what he did was so correct then you have the problem of why Muhammed's own companions didn't want to surrender their own texts, containing different verses.

It isn't mentioned there, because a problem then crops up.

So the question I pose to you Trance, is: Why did Muhammed's own companions refuse to surrender their Qu'rans, which contained different verses from Othman's own? WHY DID THOSE QU'RANS DIFFER FROM OTHMAN'S IN THE FIRST PLACE?

All those links try to do is explain the necessity, not the, "Why?"

Khan... Can you post a couple of your sources, so I can read them?

thanks

**TranceNRG** · 07-22-2005, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by KhanPaulsen

You want the biggest whopping flaw in the Qu'ran?

The most important aspect of the entire Old Testament is the Blood Covenant God made with the Jews. It isn't mentioned ANYWHERE in the Qu'ran.

can you elaborate on that?

I don't know much about it.

What is its significance?
and why do you think Quran HAS TO mention it?

**TranceNRG** · 07-22-2005, 04:54 PM

hey bro
I gotta head to class
I will talk to you later.

peace

**KhanPaulsen** · 07-22-2005, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by TranceNRG

can you elaborate on that?

I don't know much about it.

What is its significance?
and why do you think Quran HAS TO mention it?

It's significance?

The Qu'ran HAS TO mention it because it is the Blood Covenant God made with the Jews (starting with Moses). As something God did it SHOULD BE MENTIONED in the Qu'ran. Especially when concerning the Jews.

Moses brought in a blood covenant relationship with God. The other prophets built upon this covenant, but no other Old Testament prophet brought in a different covenant. Exodus 24: 8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words. (9) Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: (10) And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

Doesn't seem important to you, at all? Never heard of this? The significance of this? You know how direly important this is to the Old Testament?

The Qu'ran conveniently forgets this entire EXTREMELY IMPORTANT aspect.

Interesting Note: Moses and Jesus brought in Blood Covenants, Muhammed never did...I wonder why.

**Desahogo** · 07-22-2005, 07:35 PM

the Quran does speak of a covenant that God took with the children of israel.

**KhanPaulsen** · 07-22-2005, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by Desahogo

the Quran does speak of a covenant that God took with the children of israel.

Where? Everytime it has come up knowledgeable Muslims haven't been able to put it in verse.

**Desahogo** · 07-22-2005, 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by KhanPaulsen

Where? Everytime it has come up knowledgeable Muslims haven't been able to put it in verse.

005.007
Remember Allah's grace upon you and His covenant by which He bound you when ye said: We hear and we obey; And keep your duty to Allah. Lo! He knoweth what is in the breasts (of men).

there are many more, im about to go run on the thread mill, get back at you within an hour.

**KhanPaulsen** · 07-22-2005, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by Desahogo

005.007
Remember Allah's grace upon you and His covenant by which He bound you when ye said: We hear and we obey; And keep your duty to Allah. Lo! He knoweth what is in the breasts (of men).

there are many more, im about to go run on the thread mill, get back at you within an hour.

Now, remind me of the Prophet line of the children of Israel. Ishmael was never a prophet...since that went to Isaac. The Blood Convenant continued as such.

When you remind me of that, remind me of who made the next Blood Covenant.

In the event that the Qu'ran denies the next Blood Covenant (and it does), tell me what happens to Moses' Blood Covenant of his people. I'm still waiting for proof that it wasn't Jesus on the cross, feel free to dig that one up, but I digress.

Muhammed never had a Blood Covenant. Moses did, and the logical extension, and fulfillment of the propchecies (Jesus) formed a Blood Covenant. Muhammed's family line can't even be historically traced back to Abraham like Jesus' can, ironically. Then again, I have to digress because it is off topic.

**Health&vigor** · 07-22-2005, 08:18 PM

What happened to the other trinity thread?

**KhanPaulsen** · 07-22-2005, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by Health&vigor

What happened to the other trinity thread?

The maker deleted it because it was becoming too heated, and possibly prideful in the debate.

If you have the answers, or a better version of the answer than I gave him you would do well to message him.

**Health&vigor** · 07-22-2005, 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by KhanPaulsen

The maker deleted it because it was becoming too heated, and possibly prideful in the debate.

If you have the answers, or a better version of the answer than I gave him you would do well to message him.

Okay I will post it here, so that way oour Muslim friends have a better understanding on my Christian faith and view of the trinity
thx

How can one God exist in three persons?

The Bible says that God made man in His image--but it also says that God is not a man. How then are we in His image? In many ways, one of which is we ourselves are tri-partite. Look at your own self. YOU exist in three distinct persons yet you remain one man.
1. You have a body/flesh which is the part of you that others can see.
2. You have a mind where you think your thoughts and make your plans.
Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind...
3. You have a spirit where you feel and where your essence lies.
I Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Your body, mind and spirit are separate and distinct. My hand is a part of me, but it is not my intellect, my mind. My thoughts are a part of me, but they are not my spirit. I'll give an example. There have been times where I've seen my mind and my spirit in conflict. I'm hurt. My spirit is wounded. I'm crying and my mind says "Stop crying!" but I can't because my spirit has been wounded. Sometimes our mind and our flesh are in conflict. We know something is wrong but we are so weak and powerless that we let the flesh have its way. Paul talks about how his mind and flesh were in conflict--
Romans ...7:25 So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
You are undoubtedly tripartite (body, mind, spirit) yet you remain one entity. If you and I were in the same room and I looked at you, I would only see your flesh. I could not see what you were thinking or what you were feeling. I could not see who you really are.
We bear the image of God in that we are tripartite. One of the most direct scriptures testifying of the triunity of God is 1 John 5:7:
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and THESE THREE ARE ONE.
The Godhead and our salvation.
Let's take a look at the Godhead (a Bible word) and what each Person did in our salvation (for those of us who are saved).
1. God the Father sent the Son.
John 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
2. The Son was the propitiation (payment) for our sins.
I John 4:10, Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
3. The Holy Ghost reproves us, teaches us, guides us and testifies of Jesus Christ.
John 14:26, But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

"But Jesus is subject to the Father! How can He be God?"
1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Jesus is no less God because He is subject to the Father. Even as a human being, my body is subject to my mind. A signal must go from my brain to my hand in order for me to move it. Does that mean that my hand is not a part of me because it has to do what my mind tells it to? Nay. It is still a part of me even though it is in subjection to my mind.

You see when the Jesus said John 4:34 "Jesus said to them, 'My food is to do the will of Him who sent me, and to accomplish His work.' "

John 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of Him who sent me."

I believe it was his flesh talking, Jesus is God made manifest in the Flesh therefore he experienced every temptation we has humans face today. Would you want to be brutally beaten, tortured and then crucified? Even for your families sake? I am sure if did you would still be having seconds thoughts however you are still ONE person.

Bolded is quoted from another website.

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