I believe we need to tackle, once and for all, the roll gluconeogenesis has for those seeking to use keto diets as a means for fat loss, and it's implications on muscle catabolism due to low carbing.
We should compare CKD UD2 Carb Cycling etc etc to determine the best
option for fat loss and muscle sparing depending on bodytype (ecto,
endo, meso) etc.
I am writing an article for avantlabs.com, and am seeking everyones input on the above subject(s).
My view on the subject currenlty goes like this...
Today many people are seeking to lose weight by attempting to stop inslulin production. Many beleive are unaware that low and no carb (KETO) diets will not only lead to poor performance in the gym, but are extremely catabolic and will lead muscle catabolism (gluconeogenesis). Low carb diets will also leave muscles looking and feeling flat.
The article will present scientific evidence supporting the importance of regulating insulin production and timing carbohydrate intake to maximize lean muscle gains while dieting for fat loss.
All input is good input at this point.
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06-03-2005, 05:56 AM #1
Losing Fat Not Muscle When Dieting!
Psalms 51:10-13
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06-03-2005, 05:59 AM #2
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Agreed, carbs are good. Drop them a little when dieting, but not much.
I've found that a 50g decrease from the norm (assuming you're on a high-carb diet) is enough to persuade the body to start using bodyfat as energy.You gotta go through hell to get the body made in heaven.
"We are all in the gutter, but some of us find ourselves looking up at the stars." - Oscar Wilde
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Training 4 years...165lbs @ 6.5% bodyfat
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06-03-2005, 06:07 AM #3
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Originally Posted by HalleluYAH
"extremely catabolic" ??
Is this relevant if the diet has a carb-up phase, either every few days or every week? Because I really disagree with it if that is what you are inferring. CKD/TKD make it easy to retain muscle mass while losing fat.
"looking and feeling flat" ??
Generalization and it disappears the next day if you carb-up.
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06-03-2005, 06:33 AM #4
One thing you might want to try and avoid is lumping everyone together, unless that makes it impossible to write your article. I believe "good" carbs are very important, but at the same time I am insulin resistant or carb sensitive, however you wish to phrase it, and am forced to limit carbs. A 40/40/20 split doesn't work for every one. Not to shoot down your line of thinking, however it is possible to lose fat and keep it off, and to build muscle, while on a carb restrictive diet.
Now looking back at your original post I guess I do disagree with you almost completely. Just my 2 cents.
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06-03-2005, 06:37 AM #5Originally Posted by Max Protein
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06-03-2005, 08:07 AM #6Originally Posted by ellipticer
I believe that refeeds or "carb ups" are the way to go along with maintaingin a small level of carbs (say 100g or less) the rest of the week.
Your opinion is highley respected IMO, and I am looking forward to getting any feedback on links, articles that you know of, and just your educated opinion on this subject.Psalms 51:10-13
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06-03-2005, 08:20 AM #7Originally Posted by KingWill
As for being carb "sensitive" or insulin resistant, this is another subject, and I feel the best way to become more insulin sensitivie is by eating the right carbs at the right times of day versus cutting them out altogether. Thats said, it will be important to rememebr the targter audience will be those who are looking to MINIMIZE muscle catabolism while dieting and even gain some lean mass while dieting.Psalms 51:10-13
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06-03-2005, 08:41 AM #8
Well, low carb diets are typically low insulin diets, and low insulin levels have been linked to low testosterone levels. There's one reason to go for a cyclical approach. High protein, low fat, low carb, as many stupid people in the US try to do, is simply retarded. Around half of the protein they ingest is converted to glucose anyway, and fat oxidation is not increased in lower fat levels - only in lower carbohydrate levels. Oh, and people don't seem to get that insulin does not need to be present to store fat. (in other words, ignore Berardi's Massive Eating mumbo jumbo)
Body types don't really have much to do with it ..any body type can get decent results with a decent diet and training plan. Some people are, after all, better off on high fat/low carb, and others (but less) are better off on high carb, low fat. Obviously there is a middle ground.
P.S. It's better to be insulin resistant when dieting.forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=527284
Practice safe eating - always use condiments.
part of DA...keep it on the QT
FeMMisc SPA #5
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06-03-2005, 08:59 AM #9Originally Posted by rockstarsar
As for body types not having to do with it; that is inaccurate IMO. anyone can see that it has everyhting to do with it, else we would all look the same if we ate the same diets. the fact is, may people do eat the same diets yet look TOTALLY different. you are right on different diets for different people. it is also goal based, some obese individuals, say, do not mind losing muscle while dieting. They simply want to "lose weight". The same can go for anyone looking to diet I guess.
As for the P.S about being insulin resistent, that too, is erroneous IMO. How are nutrients such as proteins/amino acids etc going to unlock the "doors" to your muscle cells, and any other body cell for that matter, if they don't have the "key". Insulin is this key.
Another misnomer that I want to dispell is that no carbs=no insulin. The new Insulin Index providing an insulin score for many foods has proven that your body will release insulin in repsonse to protein ingestion exactly the same as it will in repsone to carbs. Even the GI score is somehwat misleading in certain cases. For example, I may have a large release of insulin in response to eating a slice of lean beef as I would eating a bowl of steel cut oats. What gives? Each macro plays an important role in bodily function, and even more so for someone trying to build/maintain lean mass while dieting.Psalms 51:10-13
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06-03-2005, 09:12 AM #10Originally Posted by HalleluYAH
As for the P.S about being insulin resistent, that too, is erroneous IMO. How are nutrients such as proteins/amino acids etc going to unlock the "doors" to your muscle cells, and any other body cell for that matter, if they don't have the "key". Insulin is this key.
Another misnomer that I want to dispell is that no carbs=no insulin. The new Insulin Index providing an insulin score for many foods has proven that your body will release insulin in repsonse to protein ingestion exactly the same as it will in repsone to carbs. Even the GI score is somehwat misleading in certain cases. For example, I may have a large release of insulin in response to eating a slice of lean beef as I would eating a bowl of steel cut oats. What gives? Each macro plays an important role in bodily function, and even more so for someone trying to build/maintain lean mass while dieting.forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=527284
Practice safe eating - always use condiments.
part of DA...keep it on the QT
FeMMisc SPA #5
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06-03-2005, 09:23 AM #11Originally Posted by rockstarsar
Originally Posted by rockstarsar
As for a good definition of insulin resistance I will quote my brother again... "Insulin resistance refers to your muscle cells being resistant to the effects of insulin. In turn your body must release more insulin in response to the consumption of food. The more insulin resistant your muscle cells are, the more insulin your body will release from its pancreas to promote storage of nutrients in them.
As for a good definition on Insulin Resistance I will quote my brother again... "Seeing how our goal is to keep insulin levels to a minimum, we will want to promote insulin sensitivity and manipulate it to our benefit! The question of the day is, how can we accomplish this? "
Not sure where McDonald is coming from, though I respect his words for sure.Psalms 51:10-13
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06-03-2005, 09:44 AM #12Originally Posted by rockstarsar
I disagree 100%. How did humans survive before the agricultural revolution 1000 years ago and the industrial revolution 200 years ago? Do you not understand that humans have only had a diet consisting of a significant amount of carbs for a tiny pecent of the time we have been on this planet. And if protein gets converted to glucose anyway, what is the point of eating the carbs everyday. The so called fact that carbs are required for energy is a myth and all the low carb bashers need to come to grips with that. Do you know what the daily carb requirements are for a person to live are? ZERO. You have to have fat and you have to have protein but you don't have to have carbs. Am I saying go zero carbs - of course not. Look at all the nations across the world and you will find the ones with the highest CARB consumption are also the ones with the highest obesity rates and diabetes rates. Coincidence? I don't think so. It's one thing to have a ifference of opinion but a totally other thing to call people you disagree with stupid and retarded. Your PS about insulin resistance is so far off the mark I am postive you do not know what it is. Care to explain to all of us how being IR helps when dieting?
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06-03-2005, 09:50 AM #13Originally Posted by KingWill
as for protein benig converted to glucose, that is true, however it is VERY expensive. That is why high fat intake is taken in attmept to get the body using fat for fuel versus the dietary protein. the article will be more geared towards building lean mass while dieting and having high energy octane in the tank for intense resistance training.
You are correct on the PS. he has admitted that already.Psalms 51:10-13
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06-03-2005, 10:01 AM #14Originally Posted by KingWill
I said high protein , low fat, low carb was junk, NOT adequate protein, high fat, low carb. I didn't say everyone needs carbs - I said if your goal is maximum lean mass retention, you would do well to cycle periods of low carbs with higher carbs. I am not a low carb basher. I am doing UD2 right now. I called the high protein, low carb/low fat spin off Atkins approach retarded, not the people who follow it. They are simply uninformed and ignorant that you cannot do a low fat low carb diet.
Okinawans aren't obese.
Worth noting is the fact the typical American diet is only around 40% carbs, but we have plenty of obesity and diabetes problems. It's the type of carbs, obviously, but it would be wrong to say high carb is bad. Some people are descended from people who do well on high carb, i.e. olden day
Asia.
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/for...read.php?t=881
Originally Posted by lylemcdLast edited by rockstarsar; 06-03-2005 at 10:05 AM.
forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=527284
Practice safe eating - always use condiments.
part of DA...keep it on the QT
FeMMisc SPA #5
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06-03-2005, 10:30 AM #15Originally Posted by rockstarsar
I agree 100% with what is stated in the article. One thing which is equally as important, and consequently left out in the article, is the fact that using fat for energy CAN NOT create the benefit insulin has in cellular nutrient uptake. So, bb's need insulin, just need to be picky about when and how much.Psalms 51:10-13
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06-03-2005, 10:32 AM #16
and from Di Pasquale:
And while I'm at it, this whole business about insulin sensitivity and resistance is also a real crock. Being insulin resistant can be a good thing under certain circumstances.
It may not be good for the couch potatoe, who eats mainly potatoes, and who's paunch measures twice as much as his chest, but it can be good for the person who's fit, trains with weights, and wants to maximize health and body composition.
Why? Man that word comes up a lot.
Because first of all insulin resistance doesn't have to be bad and in fact can be a good thing. Especially if you're on a low carb diet and want to use fat, either dietary or body fat, as your primary fuel. If you want to have less body fat and more muscle than the average mall shopping, carb munching, TV addicted, normal male and female in this anemic society of ours.
Insulin resistance in glucose metabolism, which can allow increased use of free fatty acids, and therefore body fat, as fuel, can be present along side of insulin sensitivity in amino acid transport and protein synthesis, which maximizes muscle mass, and with insulin resistance to fat tissue, which increases lipolyis and decreases lipogenesis.Last edited by rockstarsar; 06-03-2005 at 10:51 AM.
forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=527284
Practice safe eating - always use condiments.
part of DA...keep it on the QT
FeMMisc SPA #5
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06-03-2005, 10:53 AM #17Originally Posted by HalleluYAHforum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=527284
Practice safe eating - always use condiments.
part of DA...keep it on the QT
FeMMisc SPA #5
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06-03-2005, 12:01 PM #18
I am neither an author nor a doctor, however I have been dealing with this issue for the last 2 1/2 years, and let me tell you how it has worked for me. I will try to keep this as short as possible. January 2003, I was 342 lbs, blood sugar levels through the roof, and border line type 2 diabetic. Went to low to no carbs, started lifting and walking and got down to 260-265 lbs. and 20%BF. I then figured (not very bright on my part) that I could start now incorporating carbs back into my diet. Old fashion oats, brown rice, yams, all the good stuff. Continued to work out and do cardio and the weight loss came to a standstill for 6 months. At the end I got down to around 2000 calories a day and was still not losing weight. Did an experiment with my Glucometer and discovered no matter what carbs I ate, my blood sugar would go fairly high and then stay high for a decent amount of time. Fat loss was not occuring. A light bulb went off (after 6 months, I mentioned sometimes I am not so bright) and I went back to low to no carbs with a carb up day every 4-7 days. Over the last 3 months I have now dropped another 20 lbs and am down to 240 and on my way to 225.
All I can tell you is it has been my experience and the experiences of 4 or 5 other people on this board that I have been in contact with, that being IR does not work like the link you posted. Actually, that is the only thing I have EVER read that suggests being IR helps in the fat burning process. In real life, fat burning comes to a stand still.
I probably won't be able to change any minds but just consider one thing. If being IR actually helped dieting and helped burn fat why is it linked hand in hand with being overweight? (other than the link you posted). I realize this has gotten off topic here, however, even though it is not a popular train of thought among bodybuilders and particulary on this board it has been my experience it is possible to lose fat, retain muscle and energy, all while being carb restrictive. We can argue and discuss all day long, but sometimes it's best to hear it from someone who has been there and done that as opposed to basing your opinions on things we read on the internet. Haven't scientist proven that the wings of hummingbirds aren't large enough for them to be able to fly?
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06-03-2005, 12:42 PM #19
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when i have more time, i will post some links and such to more accurately support my opinion, but for now i will leave it at this.
Dave Palumbo (he's in jail now, has been trying to become a pro unsuccessfully for about 15 years, but is always big and ripped) never eats carbs. I repeat, NEVER. Now, obviously he has the help of steroids, but none the less it is needless to say that the body does not need carbs to maintain itself or muscle.
That aside, I do believe that almost every individual should consume carbs pre and post workout because if you don't you are forcing your body to work very hard to utilize protein and fats as a main energy source. However, that is not to say that it can't be done. If one were to take in say 50 grams of protein and 30 grams of fat pre workout as well as post workout and supplement correctly pre, during, and post workout with bcaa's and glutamine I believe that catabolism could be completely avoided and a substantial amount of fat could be burned if you work out at a decent pace or do cardio after your resistance training.
When I personally am cutting I cycle my carbs. I arrange my carb schedule around my lifting schedule, which calls for two cardio only days. on those days i only consume 1 meal with carbs as my second meal of the day. i cycle from 300-325 to 150-200 to 75-100 to 40-50 to 150 to 75 to 40, then back to 300. It works for me and I can say I have never lost any strength or noticable amount of muscle during dieting. However, I do believe that for the purposes of competing it is impossible to not have a zero carb day, as this would severely hinder your ability to get ripped.
In short, you can lose body fat in a number of ways, cardio, diet, lifting, cardio and diet, lifting and diet, all 3, etc. No matter what, controlling your carb intake will allow you to burn fat easier for one reason and one reason only: muscles need protein, and if you don't have carbs, then your body will make energy from fat. if you eat carbs, then your body will use the carbs for energy and it will take longer for your body to use fat. not to mention it's easier to control caloric intake when you control carbs.
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06-03-2005, 12:50 PM #20Originally Posted by IronPimper
As for Dave Palumbo, if he uses ROIDS leave him out of normal discussions. You can throw most natural bb discussions out the window when comparing them to roid users. c'mon now.
;-)Psalms 51:10-13
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06-04-2005, 01:37 AM #21
This is a very good thread with valid points being raised by both sides. I think utimately we need to accept that we all have different views and respond differently to no/low/high carb based diets. You only have to do a search on google or within the forums here at bb.com to find `expert` opinions on how we should train, eat etc. Most of the time there are conflicting views on all aspects of training....how many sets/reps....how much protein/carbs/cals/fat etc........different people swear by different approaches. Does this make them wrong....nope but IMO there is so much hype flying around as to what is the best way to train and eat that the only way people will ever know is if they are willing to try things for themselves to see how they respond. Keep up the good work guys...................
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