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    > U sticklegs's Avatar
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    biological differences between gay and straight men

    One more piece of evidence that sexual orientation is not all learned.
    http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/s...ualbrains.html
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    Originally Posted by sticklegs
    One more piece of evidence that sexual orientation is not all learned.
    http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/s...ualbrains.html
    Very interesting, i have seen a study regarding differences in the brain chemistry between gay men and straight men before, the belief is that it has something to do with the pregnant mothers secretion of nandrolone during pregnancy, i believe they found the amounts to be lower in the gay mens mothers (during pregnancy).

    They then tried injections with nandrolone in the grown men (nandrolone decanoate, brand name deca-durabolin, an anabolic steroid but also a progestin) but that didn't change anything in regards to sexual orientation.
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    allow me to play devils advocate for a moment.. studies have shown murderers are usually wired to be more impulsive, and also have higher levels of testosterone... does that make their crimes any less excusable? im not comparing homosexuality to a crime at all, im just saying that you cant use 'because his brain is like that' as a complete justification for a behavior... hell in most of us, our brains encourage us to be lazy, to lie cheat and steal, and yet morally we are supposed to fight those urges and do the opposite.
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    > U sticklegs's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Illuminati
    allow me to play devils advocate for a moment.. studies have shown murderers are usually wired to be more impulsive, and also have higher levels of testosterone... does that make their crimes any less excusable? im not comparing homosexuality to a crime at all, im just saying that you cant use 'because his brain is like that' as a complete justification for a behavior... hell in most of us, our brains encourage us to be lazy, to lie cheat and steal, and yet morally we are supposed to fight those urges and do the opposite.
    you are taling about moral issues where there is a victim. I don't think homosexuality is immoral, but even if it was it would be victimless.
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    Originally Posted by Illuminati
    allow me to play devils advocate for a moment.. studies have shown murderers are usually wired to be more impulsive, and also have higher levels of testosterone... does that make their crimes any less excusable? im not comparing homosexuality to a crime at all, im just saying that you cant use 'because his brain is like that' as a complete justification for a behavior... hell in most of us, our brains encourage us to be lazy, to lie cheat and steal, and yet morally we are supposed to fight those urges and do the opposite.
    Morally I see nothing wrong with a dude being gay, just as long as he has protected sex. Just seems that all the gay guys I've ran into seemed to have a higher estrogen level than normal.
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    Hey im not anti gay or anything. I was just pointing out that gay opponents will say you cant use 'because i was born that way' as a justification for homosexuality.
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    Maybe there is a still a chance that gay men could have acquired a sort of psychology dependency on male pheromones because they have had sex with men who give off pheromones many times in the past.
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    Originally Posted by Illuminati
    Hey im not anti gay or anything. I was just pointing out that gay opponents will say you cant use 'because i was born that way' as a justification for homosexuality.
    just showing its not a lifestyle "choice". How can the Bible thumpers be against homosexuality if "god" made them that way.
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    Originally Posted by ApostateAbe
    Maybe there is a still a chance that gay men could have acquired a sort of psychology dependency on male pheromones because they have had sex with men who give off pheromones many times in the past.
    kind of a pavlov's dog reaction for gay men?
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    Originally Posted by sticklegs
    just showing its not a lifestyle "choice". How can the Bible thumpers be against homosexuality if "god" made them that way.
    Is there any definitive proof that the bible is against homosexuality? I do believe Ive heard the saying many times that 'god loves all his children'?
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    Originally Posted by Dave22reborn
    Morally I see nothing wrong with a dude being gay, just as long as he has protected sex. Just seems that all the gay guys I've ran into seemed to have a higher estrogen level than normal.
    as for estrogen, maybe the feminine ones,, but there are alpha gay guys that you would never be able to tell that they are gay. some act more like a man than you
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    Originally Posted by sticklegs
    you are taling about moral issues where there is a victim. I don't think homosexuality is immoral, but even if it was it would be victimless.
    I don't think it's so victimless, imagine being on the recieving end.
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    Originally Posted by sticklegs
    kind of a pavlov's dog reaction for gay men?
    Yes.
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    How do bi guys fit into this?
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    Originally Posted by kmac12
    How do bi guys fit into this?
    they don't count they are all porn stars
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    Originally Posted by omnicore
    they don't count they are all porn stars
    Ah yes, true.....ive starred in a few homemade ones myself
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    █♣█ █♣█ █♣█ █♣█ █♣█ Wussy's Avatar
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    That's not a good study. Brain responces change over ones life. If they did this to 1-4 year olds and already got the same responces then it would prove something.

    It's very possible that this type of responce started in childhood.

    All the study proves is they actually do like men. . .it doesn't come close to showing they always did.
    Last edited by Wussy; 05-10-2005 at 01:55 PM.
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    Does this mean the CIA's "Gay Bomb" wasn't so far fetched?

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    Originally Posted by Wussy
    That's not a good study. Brain responces change over ones life. If they did this to 1-4 year olds and already got the same responces then it would prove something.

    It's very possible that this type of responce started in childhood.

    All the study proves is they actually do like men. . .it doesn't come close to showing they always did.
    No, it would be stupid to do it with 1-4 year olds since their brain has not been exposed to puberty.

    Many things that occur later in life are set before birth, this may be one of them, the thing is, if they do react differently because of different brain chemistry, then it isn't by choice.

    I find the "by choice" thing idiotic anyway, i've never made a choice to be straight, i have alwasy been attracted to women and could not choose to be attracted to men.
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    Originally Posted by PowerSwede
    No, it would be stupid to do it with 1-4 year olds since their brain has not been exposed to puberty.

    Many things that occur later in life are set before birth, this may be one of them, the thing is, if they do react differently because of different brain chemistry, then it isn't by choice.

    I find the "by choice" thing idiotic anyway, i've never made a choice to be straight, i have alwasy been attracted to women and could not choose to be attracted to men.
    Puberty is the same for gay and straight men in all others ways. Even If I were to agree with you this study still doesn't show that this particular responce was set at birth. It could be set in place by age 8 or 9 from experiences in childhood.

    So it's a bad study still. I don't think its a choice though. . .once your sexual preference is setup its there for good. When it gets setup has yet to be proven.

    If some 1-4 year old males already responded like the gay adults it would prove its genetic(the preference would then be set before experiences or puberty). If all men responded the same it wouldn't prove anything because as you said it could be a responce to puberty given different genetics.
    Last edited by Wussy; 05-10-2005 at 02:32 PM.
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    Interesting study. Doesn't explain biological reactions to visual stimuli though. Perhaps a study for another day.
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    Originally Posted by Wussy
    Puberty is the same for gay and straight men in all others ways. Even If I were to agree with you this study still doesn't show that this particular responce was set at birth. It could be set in place by age 8 or 9 from experiences in childhood.
    Are you certain that the puberty is the same for gay and straight men in all other ways? Have you seen any studies regarding brain chemistry during puberty in gay and straight men?

    Of course different experiences with smells can trigger different reactions, but if it was due to upbringing then gay men would have something in common regarding childhood and they don't.

    So it's a bad study still. I don't think its a choice though. . .once your sexual preference is setup its there for good. When it gets setup has yet to be proven.

    If some 1-4 year old males already responded like the gay adults it would prove its genetic(the preference would then be set before experiences or puberty). If all men responded the same it wouldn't prove anything because as you said it could be a responce to puberty given different genetics.
    1-4 year olds could not possibly be used here since the sexual maturity comes much later, the response would be the same for all which either shows that all 1-4 year olds are bisexual or that they are simply asexual, i'd go with the latter.

    What it showes is exactly what they were looking for, in that way it IS a very good study, it shows that gay men DO react differently to male pheromones, what it doesn't show is why, but that was never the intention.
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    Rafidhi (رافضي) TranceNRG's Avatar
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    I just read about this on the newspaper.

    * (I haven't read the whole thread) *

    *The matter of moral vs immoral is quite irrelevant if God's commandments are ignored
    *There has never been studies to show/proof that children are born gay
    *This study only involved a very small sample size, so not a serious study in science world
    *many psychological/biological deviant behaviours are diagnosed as illness, which are victimless.
    "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God." (Matthew 5:9)
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    Originally Posted by TranceNRG
    I just read about this on the newspaper.

    * (I haven't read the whole thread) *

    *The matter of moral vs immoral is quite irrelevant if God's commandments are ignored
    *There has never been studies to show/proof that children are born gay
    *This study only involved a very small sample size, so not a serious study in science world
    *many psychological/biological deviant behaviours are diagnosed as illness, which are victimless.
    I don't know man, like I said before, most lesbians seem kind of butch and ugly to me, and gay guys are "FLAMING" types.

    I have to see it as some kind of hormonal thing, because when I have to deal with some gay guys as customers, they have to have some kind of estrogen overload or something, because they're waving their hands like women and kind of talking like one as well.

    The gay women I've encounterd had short haircuts or mullets, and 2 minutes after knowing them I knew there wasn't something right here.

    I don't like them, but I don't "hate" them.
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    Originally Posted by Dave22reborn
    I don't know man, like I said before, most lesbians seem kind of butch and ugly to me, and gay guys are "FLAMING" types.

    I have to see it as some kind of hormonal thing, because when I have to deal with some gay guys as customers, they have to have some kind of estrogen overload or something, because they're waving their hands like women and kind of talking like one as well.

    The gay women I've encounterd had short haircuts or mullets, and 2 minutes after knowing them I knew there wasn't something right here.

    I don't like them, but I don't "hate" them.
    There are definitely biological events involved.
    but hey, biological events also occur when you go under a tannind bed

    Here's a simple example...
    Have you ever had a food that you initially hated it but you later grew to like it or even love it
    what do you think causes that?

    biological/neurological events
    "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God." (Matthew 5:9)
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    Originally Posted by TranceNRG
    There are definitely biological events involved.
    but hey, biological events also occur when you go under a tannind bed

    Here's a simple example...
    Have you ever had a food that you initially hated it but you later grew to like it or even love it
    what do you think causes that?

    biological/neurological events
    Okay but take for ex. Ricky Martin, you take one look at him and know that he's kind of gay. When a guy is that pretty and clean than you know he's gay or close. Same with Bob Paris the bodybuilder.

    You look at girls like Ellen, Jodie Foster, Rosie O Donnel, and know they're gay.

    But you look at the good looking ones, like the one from "Arrested Development, or Sex and the City" and they're just a little confused, or experimenting.

    I went to a seminar at a collage with my GF about 3 years ago, and this woman was talking, 2 minutes later we look at each other and know she's a lezbo.

    She tell's some story about when she finally came out to her mom, and her mom couldn't believe it. She was in denial, and I couldn't understand how her mom wouldn't know.
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    "They found that gay men differed from heterosexual men and women and from lesbian women, both in terms of which body odors gay men preferred and how their own body odors were regarded by the other groups.

    Gay men preferred odors from gay men, while odors from gay men were the least preferred by heterosexual men and women and by lesbian women in the study. Their findings, released Monday, are to be published in the journal Psychological Science in September."


    No wonder they are so unpopular
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    Originally Posted by Dave22reborn
    Okay but take for ex. Ricky Martin, you take one look at him and know that he's kind of gay. When a guy is that pretty and clean than you know he's gay or close. Same with Bob Paris the bodybuilder.
    dude
    no man...
    I take care of myself. I dress well, gel my hair, shave and etc. but I'm sure I'm not gay
    What about Justin Timbelake... He seems to shop from salvation army and he doesn't use what's a razor.

    You can't judge homosexuality without speaking and interacting with the person.

    You look at girls like Ellen, Jodie Foster, Rosie O Donnel, and know they're gay.
    nope
    I think the media promote a certain image.
    Short hair, boyish clothes for lesbians
    and european, fitted clothes for gays
    But that's not necessarily how you should distinguish who's gay and who's not


    But you look at the good looking ones, like the one from "Arrested Development, or Sex and the City" and they're just a little confused, or experimenting.
    I went to a seminar at a collage with my GF about 3 years ago, and this woman was talking, 2 minutes later we look at each other and know she's a lezbo.
    tsk tsk
    You judged the book by its cover

    She tell's some story about when she finally came out to her mom, and her mom couldn't believe it. She was in denial, and I couldn't understand how her mom wouldn't know.



    Ok...
    This might be quite shocking to you.
    ready.....

    Alot of people label me to be "metrosexual"
    and I'm sure if they didn't know I'm straight, they would call me "homosexual"

    so again... you can't judge a book by its cover
    "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God." (Matthew 5:9)
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    Originally Posted by TranceNRG
    dude
    no man...
    I take care of myself. I dress well, gel my hair, shave and etc. but I'm sure I'm not gay
    What about Justin Timbelake... He seems to shop from salvation army and he doesn't use what's a razor.

    You can't judge homosexuality without speaking and interacting with the person.



    nope
    I think the media promote a certain image.
    Short hair, boyish clothes for lesbians
    and european, fitted clothes for gays
    But that's not necessarily how you should distinguish who's gay and who's not




    tsk tsk
    You judged the book by its cover






    Ok...
    This might be quite shocking to you.
    ready.....

    Alot of people label me to be "metrosexual"
    and I'm sure if they didn't know I'm straight, they would call me "homosexual"

    so again... you can't judge a book by its cover
    There's a difference between looking like a homo, and being metrosexual. Men's health, that's metrosexual. I have a friend named Robert, and he's definetely metro, takes half-hour showers, than another half-hour to an hour getting ready to go out.

    He's also a clean freak though, has a can of lysol that he sprays his belt with all the time.

    But maybe western gay guys are different than those in the rest of the world. The image of a gay guy in the western world is one with a limp wrist, high voice, very feminine, etc.

    Kind of like the lead singer of REM, when he came out of the closet, nobody cared, because everyone knew that he was gay.
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    Originally Posted by Dave22reborn
    There's a difference between looking like a homo, and being metrosexual. Men's health, that's metrosexual. I have a friend named Robert, and he's definetely metro, takes half-hour showers, than another half-hour to an hour getting ready to go out.

    He's also a clean freak though, has a can of lysol that he sprays his belt with all the time.

    But maybe western gay guys are different than those in the rest of the world. The image of a gay guy in the western world is one with a limp wrist, high voice, very feminine, etc.

    Kind of like the lead singer of REM, when he came out of the closet, nobody cared, because everyone knew that he was gay.
    LOL

    ok... I am not as metro as Robert
    I do not clean my beltrs with Lysol

    and yea... You're correct about the western image of homosexuals
    "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God." (Matthew 5:9)
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