muscle glycogen storage

[descartes]

I am interested to know more about complex carbs and muscle glycogen storage.

There was a thread going recently on the best form of carbs to eat AFTER a workout . My question is more about " carb loading " BEFORE a workout

How long before does one have to eat complex carbs before resitance training ? what is intruiging is can one actualy "load" muscles cells like " loading" creatine in order to "swell "muscles during exercise . How much can muscles cells store ? etc... The liver obviously stores glycogen and so does muscle

Obviously simple carbs will spike insulin much quicker than slow releasing complex carbs for use of energy but not for glycogen storage before a workout?

Anyone with a good scientific answer?

[tinyman5000]

What about if we just eat enough carbs to burn off then eat post workout carbs, do the carbs even count as calories

[OneBetter]

Originally Posted by tinyman5000

What about if we just eat enough carbs to burn off then eat post workout carbs, do the carbs even count as calories

what a random ass post. of course if you burn the calories then they don't "count"


OP, do you just want to know how much glycogen muscle cells can store?

eating a preworkout meal of a lot of carbs would be fine, you don't really ever go to depletion, or even low levels with a good diet. (excluding endurance obviously)

[wala]

Originally Posted by OneBetter

what a random ass post. of course if you burn the calories then they don't "count"


OP, do you just want to know how much glycogen muscle cells can store?

eating a preworkout meal of a lot of carbs would be fine, you don't really ever go to depletion, or even low levels with a good diet. (excluding endurance obviously)

agreed

I take in oats about an hour before working out. Creatine and protein shake about 20 mins before workout.. PWO i have whey, banana, cut of oat, water and peanut butter ans blend it all in a drink

[descartes]

Originally Posted by OneBetter

what a random ass post. of course if you burn the calories then they don't "count"


OP, do you just want to know how much glycogen muscle cells can store?

eating a preworkout meal of a lot of carbs would be fine, you don't really ever go to depletion, or even low levels with a good diet. (excluding endurance obviously)

"do you just want to know how much glycogen muscle cells can store?"

More than that , can one "load" or " saturate" muscles with glycogen in the same way one "loads" muscle cells or " saturates" them with creatine

I heard glucose draws water into the muscle cell causing it to swell or have a pump during weight training . So it would make sense to saturate muscles with enough stored glucose ( glycogen) to have this effect?

[tinyman5000]

I just dont get how the body stores excess glucose into glycogen rather then fat. If you eat over your maintance and some of it is carbs does it store them as fat or glycogen

[wala]

Originally Posted by tinyman5000

I just dont get how the body stores excess glucose into glycogen rather then fat. If you eat over your maintance and some of it is carbs does it store them as fat or glycogen

good question and its too last for me to know the answer.. wouldn't wanna give you the wronf info!

All i know is that what i eat works for me

[martinibluex]

Originally Posted by tinyman5000

What about if we just eat enough carbs to burn off then eat post workout carbs, do the carbs even count as calories

Whaaat?

[Jamesstout]

you can carb load, first you have to deplete glycogen though you cant just go mad on pasta and expect not tog et fat...

[martinibluex]

To the OP:

You shouldn't really worry about topping off the glycogen before workout. You rarely deplete more than 30% of your muscle glycogen with resistance training (assuming that you don't overtrain). Quads are an exception, since they can lose 40-50% of their glycogen.
Eating complex carbs 90 min or having some fruit 30 min before workout is good for me. A precise answer would be tough given the different rates of digestion and the different GLs. I train in the middle of the day. This way my glycogen is always ~full before workout and before I go to bed.

[tinyman5000]

ok, so lets say our workout is this-

3x6 squats
3x6 lunges
3x8 single leg extensions
3x8 single leg curls
1x20 leg extensions

Would we exhaust all the glycogen? Not only that, but how many pounds of glycogen would we put on and what would our appearance be after a hardcore carb load

[Jules Verne]

Originally Posted by descartes

How long before does one have to eat complex carbs before resitance training ? what is intruiging is can one actualy "load" muscles cells like " loading" creatine in order to "swell "muscles during exercise . How much can muscles cells store ? etc... The liver obviously stores glycogen and so does muscle

Unless your glycogen stores are nearly full, you cannot fill them with one meal anyway. Even at 30% depletion, it is going to take hours to fill them (like 6-12 hours) independent of what you eat. Of course eating right after a workout does speed up the process (sort of - actually you'll get to say 80% full more quickly, but not necessarily to 100% any more quickly).

How much you can store it completely individual.

A solid meal 60-90 minutes before the workout will, for most people, result in carbs and protein available during the workout. Clearly it depends on what you eat, when you last ate before that etc..

You have to experiment to see what works best for you in terms of having good energy levels during the workout.

[djansen]

Bump for a good topic

[Jamesstout]

you really need to carb load for things which last over 90 mins - then you'll be exhausting muscle glycogen and hittign the liver resources but this depoends on how hard you go

[gfundaro]

Originally Posted by tinyman5000

I just dont get how the body stores excess glucose into glycogen rather then fat. If you eat over your maintance and some of it is carbs does it store them as fat or glycogen

It does store them as fat once muscle and liver glycogen are full, actually. Insulin will keep shuttling blood glucose into the liver whether it's full or not, but the liver sends it off for conversion to glycerol and storage in adipose tissue (triglycerides are made of glycerol and fatty acids).

[undertaker610]

Also the complex carbs are important cause they make your body looks pumped through the day, and this is because of the glycogen storage.
You can also take Creatine.Creatine used in a diet that complex carbs are consumed can make someone store much more glycogen and get bigger!

[BabyBodybuilder]

Originally Posted by undertaker610

Also the complex carbs are important cause they make your body looks pumped through the day, and this is because of the glycogen storage.
You can also take Creatine.Creatine used in a diet that complex carbs are consumed can make someone store much more glycogen and get bigger!

I love replies like these!

They make me lol xD

[tinyman5000]

Actually I learned alot from this topic. I'm going to drastically reduce my carb intake.

[jman14]

Originally Posted by tinyman5000

Actually I learned alot from this topic. I'm going to drastically reduce my carb intake.

no offense man, but i dont think you should do that. you seem pretty anal about your diet man. eat lots of good clean carbs arounds your workouts, don't think too hard into stuff like this.

I mean, there is a science behind it, but carbs will fuel you. as long as you provide your body with plenty of clean food and work like a mother in the gym, you will put on loads of muscle.

[tinyman5000]

Yeah I'm not anal about my diet, when I was i was making ****s worth of gains. I just realized I take in 300+ carbs a day sometimes, which just makes me bloated.

[650hpGTI]

While cutting I drastically lower my carbs due to this stuff.

[Jamesstout]

Originally Posted by tinyman5000

Yeah I'm not anal about my diet, when I was i was making ****s worth of gains. I just realized I take in 300+ carbs a day sometimes, which just makes me bloated.

so hang on your making gains but now you realise that claories consumed before the workout actually count your going to stop taking in carbs hmmmmm

[tinyman5000]

No im just gonna cut out the bread i have with dinner and maybe eat more carbs before i work out

[AphtaLyfe]

Originally Posted by undertaker610

Also the complex carbs are important cause they make your body looks pumped through the day, and this is because of the glycogen storage.
You can also take Creatine.Creatine used in a diet that complex carbs are consumed can make someone store much more glycogen and get bigger!

O rly?

[vipergq]

loading glycogen does not work unless your storage is somewhat depleted. Most average to Hi carb diets will fill your stores up easily by the next day. no need to load unless you have been carb depleted for a few days.

Loading carbs while stores are filled do nohing for your muscles. It turns directly into energy and then to fat if not used imediately.

This is why post workout crbs are recommended to immediately restore used glycogen from your workout.

[descartes]

Originally Posted by undertaker610

Also the complex carbs are important cause they make your body looks pumped through the day, and this is because of the glycogen storage.
You can also take Creatine.Creatine used in a diet that complex carbs are consumed can make someone store much more glycogen and get bigger!

Thanks for all the replies to my thread and the people who have viewed it ( over 300)

" the complex carbs are important cause they make your body looks pumped through the day, and this is because of the glycogen storage."

You know he may have a point?

If your muscles have lower glycogen storage levels as opposed to higher levels then would this make any difference to a "pump" during a workout ?

Again, I would pose my question

Would the glucose (stored glycogen) draw more water into the muscle cell causing it to swell or have a pump during weight training . So ould it make sense to saturate or a better word to use is "load" muscles with enough stored glucose ( glycogen) to have this effect?

This storage need not be 30 or even 90 minutes before the workout . I am talking about the night before .

[Jamesstout]

Originally Posted by descartes

Thanks for all the replies to my thread and the people who have viewed it ( over 300)

" the complex carbs are important cause they make your body looks pumped through the day, and this is because of the glycogen storage."

You know he may have a point?

If your muscles have lower glycogen storage levels as opposed to higher levels then would this make any difference to a "pump" during a workout ?

less stored glycogen means you can do less work therefore you'd do less weight or less sets


Again, I would pose my question

Would the glucose (stored glycogen) draw more water into the muscle cell causing it to swell or have a pump during weight training . So ould it make sense to saturate or a better word to use is "load" muscles with enough stored glucose ( glycogen) to have this effect?

glycogen is stored along with water if that is what you are asking


This storage need not be 30 or even 90 minutes before the workout . I am talking about the night before
you need to eat enough carbs to fuel your workout but that's pretty obvious right

.

yoou can do extreme depletion/loading i think people do this pre contest?

[Aindreas]

Originally Posted by Jamesstout

yoou can do extreme depletion/loading i think people do this pre contest?

I did that for kicks two weeks ago. On Saturday I ate about 47 grams of carbs (and a ridiculous amount of fat, including 36 whole eggs) and didn't carb up until Sunday night when I ate 300g of carbs in one sitting. I friggin' exploded. It was one of the coolest things I've ever seen.

[undertaker610]

Some info:

Glycogen is a polysaccharide of glucose (Glc) which functions as the primary short term energy storage in animal cells. It is made primarily by the liver and the muscles, but can also be made by the brain, uterus, and the vagina.[1] Glycogen is the analogue of starch, a less branched glucose polymer in plants, and is commonly referred to as animal starch, having a similar structure to amylopectin. Glycogen is found in the form of granules in the cytosol in many cell types, and plays an important role in the glucose cycle. Glycogen forms an energy reserve that can be quickly mobilized to meet a sudden need for glucose, but one that is less compact than the energy reserves of triglycerides (fat). In the liver hepatocytes, glycogen can compose up to 8% of the fresh weight (100?120 g in an adult) soon after a meal. [citation needed] Only the glycogen stored in the liver can be made accessible to other organs. In the muscles, glycogen is found in a much lower concentration (1% of the muscle mass), but the total amount exceeds that in liver. Small amounts of glycogen are found in the kidneys, and even smaller amounts in certain glial cells in the brain and white blood cells. The uterus also stores glycogen during pregnancy to nourish the embryo.

[descartes]

Increasing muscle glycogen levels
Now on to the most critical part of muscle glycogen resynthesis. How do you increase muscle glycogen levels? There are several supplements and techniques to allow for increased glycogen storage. One way is taking a glutamine supplement. Glutamine causes a significant increase in muscle glycogen deposition through an unknown mechanism. According to one university study, a physiological concentration of glutamine stimulates glycogen synthesis from glucose and gluconeogenic pre-cursors (16). So glutamine along with your post workout high glycemic index carbohydrates may increase glutamine and glycogen in the muscle. I would recommend at least 5-10 grams of glutamine at this time to allow for glycogen recompensation. In another research study on humans, an intravenous drip of glutamine, raising blood levels about 70% above normal, increased muscle glycogen (17). Some top quality glutamine supplements I would recommend are Cytovol by EAS and SuperGlu by GURUetc. There is also a doctor named Elias Meezan who is in the process of patenting artificial primers for glycogen synthesis. Properties of these compounds enable them to readily penetrate cells chemically intact so that they have access to glycogenin and glycogen synthase. The unique structural and metabolic properties of these compounds make it highly likely that in addition to priming glycogen synthesis on their own, they could act synergistically with other drugs to stimulate glucose disposal and glycogen synthesis. This is real exciting news for bodybuilders and diabetics as well. Next, there are those glucose disposing agents or so called "insulin mimickers" such as vanadyl sulfate, chromium picolinate, metformin, and phenformin. Alpha lipoic acid also shows potential as a glucose disposing agent. In Germany, it is used as a treatment for peripheral neuropathy, a common complication of diabetes. It speeds the removal of glucose from the blood stream, at least partly by enhancing insulin function and reducing insulin resistance. The richest food source of alpha lipoic acid is red meat. Vanadyl sulfate helps to trigger glucose transporters much like insulin, obviously meaning increased glycogen stores and better assimilation of protein by muscle tissue. Higher glycogen stores mean better "pumps" in the gym and more energy during workouts. Chromium picolinate helps insulin function by regulating glucose tolerance factor which helps insulin bind to muscle cells. This may especially be important to insulin resistant bodybuilders. Metformin, which is sold as Glucophage in America, is an extremely powerful glucose disposing agent used to manage diabetes. Phenformin is similar but causes the negative side effect of lactic acidosis. Metformin is a prescription item. Phenformin can be found in Mexico where it is sold under the brand name of Debeone. Doing explosive concentric movements and limiting eccentric type of training (i.e. long negatives) may also increase glycogen stores. Carbohydrate depleting and then reloading (glycogen supercompensation) may allow you to increase glycogen stores two fold, as mentioned above.

So basically to allow for the most glycogen stores I would definitely recommend a vanadyl or chromium supplement. V2G by EAS and Vanadyl ph by Sportpharma seem to be two effective vanadyl supplements. Training intensely, depleting glycogen stores, may also allow for rapid glycogen resynthesis. There is a great advantage to carb loading before a bodybuilding competition. The method I recommend is this: 7 days out from a show, start carb depleting by consuming 1 gram of carbohydrates per kilogram of bodyweight. This depleting phase will increase glycogen synthase activity and prime your body for glycogen supercompensation. Training during this time should consist of heavy, explosive (concentric) movements for low repetitions. Glucagon levels will start rising at this point to help maintain blood sugar levels. After three days of depleting, start carb loading by consuming 3 grams per kilogram of bodyweight daily along with a glutamine and glucose disposing supplement for three days. Consume a greater amount of those carbs earlier in the day and taper down as the day progresses. Make sure to consume plenty of complex carbohydrates during the loading phase such as sweet potatoes ,vegetables, brown rice, and multi-grain oatmeal. The loading phase should allow for glycogen supercompensation and fill your glycogen stores to the gills causing enlarged muscles and harder definition. You should try carb loading/depleting about 3 weeks before the show to make sure it works perfectly. The slightest mistake can cause water retention and a smooth appearance to muscles. This formula has worked for me in many competitions over the years.

In conclusion, glycogen resynthesis plays an important role in bodybuilding and proper carbohydrate depleting/loading can make the difference between winning a bodybuilding competition or looking like a balloon and losing. Advances in glycogen synthesis are currently being made and the future looks bright for bodybuilders who want to get larger muscles and increase energy levels through glycogen recompensation. In my opinion, Glycogenin and proglycogen supplementation hold the key to future advancements in muscle glycogen resynthesis.