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  1. #1
    Mrs. ExtremistPullup miche13's Avatar
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    lower abs without the hip flexors

    Is there a good lower ab exersice that doesn't use your hip flexors all that much.

    Can you only work your lower abs or do you just work them all in genrel.
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  2. #2
    Registered User DavetheDog's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by miche13
    Is there a good lower ab exersice that doesn't use your hip flexors all that much.

    Can you only work your lower abs or do you just work them all in genrel.

    Nope, all work together.
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  3. #3
    Keto FTMFW! Uriel_da_man's Avatar
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    Hip flexors won't work if you keep your hips stiff (crunches).
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  4. #4
    Performance Enhancer bigpump23's Avatar
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    your going to have some sort of pull on your HF"s in EVERY exercise, nothing can completely take them out of the eqautition, that being said for lower ab work, shorten your ROM and if doing any hanging exercise do it with an anterior pelvic tilt
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  5. #5
    Registered User culu's Avatar
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    One of the best exercises to isolate the abs is laying on your back with one leg straight and the other flexed and to place the hands behind the lower back and then only crunch up until you begin to feel the pressure on your lower back. This makes sure you are minimizing the hip flexors.
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  6. #6
    Homo Homini Lupus aiwass's Avatar
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    Why would you want to cut a muscle group out of an exercise? The more worked, the better! If you want your lower abs to do more work, just work them more...
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    Performance Enhancer bigpump23's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by aiwass
    Why would you want to cut a muscle group out of an exercise? The more worked, the better! If you want your lower abs to do more work, just work them more...
    What kind of statement is that? you want to take your HF's out of the movement because they'll do the work and your abs will get less of the load,
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  8. #8
    Mrs. ExtremistPullup miche13's Avatar
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    I'm big on Isolating I really only want to feel it in my abs
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  9. #9
    Registered User Josiah's Avatar
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    Perhaps some partial ROM leg lifts?

    That's all I could think of, maybe sitting on the end of a bench to help keep your hips from moving around much.
    Last edited by Josiah; 04-30-2005 at 04:07 PM.
    something clever and witty
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  10. #10
    Performance Enhancer bigpump23's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Josiah
    Perhaps some partial ROM leg lifts?

    That's all I could think of, maybe sitting on the end of a bench to help keep your hips from moving around much.

    thats really the only way, anyone that tells you you can take the HF's completely out of the movement is an idiot, partial rom's and anterior lepvic tilits when doing leg raises
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  11. #11
    Homo Homini Lupus aiwass's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by bigpump23
    What kind of statement is that? you want to take your HF's out of the movement because they'll do the work and your abs will get less of the load,
    Yes, but there's a limit to how effectively one can 'take them out'. By all means, use proper technique, but past that, I wouldn't worry too much about working additional muscle groups. Personally, if I feel that my abs haven't gotten enough work at the end of my ab workout, I'll just do another set or two.
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  12. #12
    Registered User ATrainer's Avatar
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    You actually can isolate the lower abs from hip flexors. You have to know the dynamics of the region. The hip flexors actually work against the rectus abdominus. When your abs are weak, or your hip flexors too dominant, it will pull your pelvis forward, by way of pulling the spine forward. This will result in a sway back. Strengthening the rectus abdominus, and actively promoting good posture habits will pull the pubis bone toward the sternum, aligning the spine back to a normal lordosis.

    Flexing your hips to 90 degrees, and then performing the anterior pelvic rocks that BIgpump alludes to will isolate the lower abs from the hip flexors. My lat pulldown ab exercise absolutely excludes the hip flexors by locking the hips in place. I could be an idiot , but in this instance, I have to claim that I know what I talk about.

    If you do a search for reverse crunches, I give a description of that exercise that excludes the hip flexors.
    www.revised-training.com
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  13. #13
    Supplement Connosueir kendog's Avatar
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    I find most people don't curve their backs/abs enough into a rounded shape when doing abs. Almost everyone incorporates flexors ways too much. Put a visual image of curving your back/abs and actually curve them as you crunch too.
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  14. #14
    back with half the reps SDFlip's Avatar
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    when i do hanging leg raises, i try to imagine that i'm ****ing the ceiling.

    i dont think of them as leg raises, but hip tilts. doing them this way reduces most of my hip flexor involvement
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    Performance Enhancer bigpump23's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ATrainer
    You actually can isolate the lower abs from hip flexors. You have to know the dynamics of the region. The hip flexors actually work against the rectus abdominus. When your abs are weak, or your hip flexors too dominant, it will pull your pelvis forward, by way of pulling the spine forward. This will result in a sway back. Strengthening the rectus abdominus, and actively promoting good posture habits will pull the pubis bone toward the sternum, aligning the spine back to a normal lordosis.

    Flexing your hips to 90 degrees, and then performing the anterior pelvic rocks that BIgpump alludes to will isolate the lower abs from the hip flexors. My lat pulldown ab exercise absolutely excludes the hip flexors by locking the hips in place. I could be an idiot , but in this instance, I have to claim that I know what I talk about.

    If you do a search for reverse crunches, I give a description of that exercise that excludes the hip flexors.

    Isolate yes but AT, wouldn't you agree that it is impossible to take the HF's out of ab movements?
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  16. #16
    Registered User ATrainer's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by bigpump23
    Isolate yes but AT, wouldn't you agree that it is impossible to take the HF's out of ab movements?
    I know for a fact that you can exclude the HFs from lower abdominal work.

    Take my ab exercise. You are sitting in a lat machine with your feet planted on the ground below your knees. Your hips are at 90 degrees, under traction from the resistance that is pulling the torso upward. In order for the HF to contract, the lower spine has to travel forward toward the femur, decreasing the 90 degree angle.

    However, my movement has the spine travel backward, flattening as it were, the tailbone backward onto the seat. This doesn't actually happen, but the pelvic articulation that does take place moves the sacrumbackward, causing the 90 degree angle of the hip to open up (extend). The hip flexors must then by necessity lengthen.

    The same thing happens when reverse crunches are performed correctly. I've done extensive research into postural alignment, and many of the problems arise from incorrect lower ab exercises that concentrically contract the HFs instead of the lower abs. I rarely, if ever, see proper lower ab training.
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    CSCS Jotun's Avatar
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    Pavel has a version of the lying crunch that takes the hip flexors out of the movement. It involves contracting the antagonist muscle group, causing a forced-relaxation of the hip flexors. It's in one of his books; I can look it up if anyone's interested.
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  18. #18
    I have misplaced my pants wiggles's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by aiwass
    Why would you want to cut a muscle group out of an exercise? The more worked, the better! If you want your lower abs to do more work, just work them more...
    HAHA! That's got to be a joke, right? I mean, > 100 rep points... you've got to be joking.
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    If you're doing your work right, only 2 hip flexor muscles will be working: major and minor psoas. And you can't isolate lower/middle/upper abs. They all work together. You can isolate obliques though.
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    Dudes, I don't get it. Why this dispute on how to take the HF out? Do some form of leg raises (lying or hanging) until your abs are in flames and you can't possibly pull on more leg raise off and you've solved your main problem (working the lower part of the abs) regardless of the effort by your hip flexors.
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    Originally Posted by sqeeze hard
    Dudes, I don't get it. Why this dispute on how to take the HF out? Do some form of leg raises (lying or hanging) until your abs are in flames and you can't possibly pull on more leg raise off and you've solved your main problem (working the lower part of the abs) regardless of the effort by your hip flexors.
    The problem is that if your hip flexors are doing all the work, they will fail long before anything else and you will be completly wasting your time.
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    Leg raises don't work your abs (only to stabilize), they work hip flexors. Abs might be burning, but what you want is to isolate them with concentric movements. Good way to know if your abs are working: what's the center of rotation? When you move your legs, your center of rotation is your pelvis/hips. You want your center of rotation to be higher: lower back. If your upper body isn't flexing and your back stays stiff, there's no ab work there.
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    The Beast sqeeze hard's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by wiggles
    The problem is that if your hip flexors are doing all the work, they will fail long before anything else and you will be completly wasting your time.
    If something fails then it's the abs, but that is my case. Guess it's just me adopting CORRECT FORM and MIND / MUSCLE CONNECTION. Plus I do leg raises after my leg workout (squats, leg extensions for quads) and still my ab gets the burn of his life.

    Instead of fighting on how to take out the HF out you could go to the gym and do some leg raises and find out if you have what it takes to train smart.

    Originally Posted by Business
    Leg raises don't work your abs (only to stabilize), they work hip flexors. Abs might be burning, but what you want is to isolate them with concentric movements. Good way to know if your abs are working: what's the center of rotation? When you move your legs, your center of rotation is your pelvis/hips. You want your center of rotation to be higher: lower back. If your upper body isn't flexing and your back stays stiff, there's no ab work there.
    Yeah, right... Basic mechanics:
    The rectus abdomins is attached to the pubis:
    http://www.exrx.net/Muscles/RectusAbdominis.html
    When you raise your legs the center of gravity of the legs moves forward creating an imballance. Stabilizing the position requires the rectus abdomins to exert a force in such a way that the overall force momentum to be null. Meaning the abs actually work.
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    Some Dude Business's Avatar
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    As I said, abs do work as stabilizers when doing leg raises. That's why they burn so much. However, you're better off doing some direct work.
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    Yeah, I noticed that when I do high reps of situps and crunches, my thighs start to burn, but I dont want to tone my thighs; I do situps to train my abs.
    A thing can be in one state, or another. Thusly, the number of states Ns, is Ns = 2^n; then, log(2)[Ns] = n. So, I'm probably typing this while I'm asleep. T_T

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    Originally Posted by ATrainer
    I know for a fact that you can exclude the HFs from lower abdominal work.

    Take my ab exercise. You are sitting in a lat machine with your feet planted on the ground below your knees. Your hips are at 90 degrees, under traction from the resistance that is pulling the torso upward. In order for the HF to contract, the lower spine has to travel forward toward the femur, decreasing the 90 degree angle.

    However, my movement has the spine travel backward, flattening as it were, the tailbone backward onto the seat. This doesn't actually happen, but the pelvic articulation that does take place moves the sacrumbackward, causing the 90 degree angle of the hip to open up (extend). The hip flexors must then by necessity lengthen.

    The same thing happens when reverse crunches are performed correctly. I've done extensive research into postural alignment, and many of the problems arise from incorrect lower ab exercises that concentrically contract the HFs instead of the lower abs. I rarely, if ever, see proper lower ab training.
    hmmmm interesting,, yes lower ab training is done terrible
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    Originally Posted by Jotun
    Pavel has a version of the lying crunch that takes the hip flexors out of the movement. It involves contracting the antagonist muscle group, causing a forced-relaxation of the hip flexors. It's in one of his books; I can look it up if anyone's interested.

    please
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    Originally Posted by bigpump23
    please
    Okey dokey, I'll try to explain:

    According to Pavel, the psoas are the culprit in situps/crunches and take much of the work away from the abdominals. In order to minimize their action, you must contract their opposing muscle group: the knee flexors (hamstrings). Doing so will cause the forced-relaxation of the psoas, allowing the abdominals to do a majority of the work involved in a crunch.
    How is this accomplished? One way is to assume the traditional bent-knees position on the floor. Have a partner place their hands on the back of your calves and pull, while you try to resist and pull your lower legs in (thereby flexing the hamstrings). It should be a static contraction; no movement. While flexed, your psoas should be deactivated enough to allow better targeting of the abs.
    I believe Pavel sells a device he designed to allow you to perform this method of crunches without a partner. It is important to note that he feels simply pressing your feet into the floor and trying to drag them inward is not a sufficient way of performing this exercise; the resistance needs to be behind the calves.
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    Originally Posted by Jotun
    Okey dokey, I'll try to explain:

    According to Pavel, the psoas are the culprit in situps/crunches and take much of the work away from the abdominals. In order to minimize their action, you must contract their opposing muscle group: the knee flexors (hamstrings). Doing so will cause the forced-relaxation of the psoas, allowing the abdominals to do a majority of the work involved in a crunch.
    How is this accomplished? One way is to assume the traditional bent-knees position on the floor. Have a partner place their hands on the back of your calves and pull, while you try to resist and pull your lower legs in (thereby flexing the hamstrings). It should be a static contraction; no movement. While flexed, your psoas should be deactivated enough to allow better targeting of the abs.
    I believe Pavel sells a device he designed to allow you to perform this method of crunches without a partner. It is important to note that he feels simply pressing your feet into the floor and trying to drag them inward is not a sufficient way of performing this exercise; the resistance needs to be behind the calves.

    hmm i'll try tomorrow and let you know
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    Contracting the "opposing" muscle group doesn't mean that the psoas is not contracting. Best example: both your quads are hamstrings are working pretty hard during squats or leg presses, and they are opposite.
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