Dont Use Anti-estrogens

[mr00bill]

What does trade names have to do with anything?? It is the drug companies that give both names to the drug. I feel sorry for you. You start out wanting to help others as a physician but you end up as a drug pusher for companies that could give a **** about you. Just to prove my point what treatment modalities have you been taught that are not produced by a drug company??? Please don't say diet and exercise or I will think you are more stupid then I already do.

You are being inculturated and you don't even know it. You might even like it. You get to be called doctor and everything right? But before you get to high and mighty realize that the number three cause of death in America is mistakes by doctors. A consumer group went over all of the data on mistakes by doctors and said that doctors were the number one cause of death in America. But the AMA didn't like that so they went over the data and discarded a bunch of cases and said no we are only number three. What a joke Mr. high and mighty. But wait it gets better, 60 minutes did a show on a new industry, private autopsies. So many doctors are killing their patients that they are lying on the death certificate. So there is a new company that a private individual can send their loved ones remains to be privately autopsied. 60 minutes asked "how many inaccurate death certificates have they found?" The answer was about fifty percent. I am willing to bet that when these numbers are added in the death by doctor will rise to number one again.

To under score my point there was a computer program that came out of Stanford. It is called Mycin. Mycin is an expert system for diagnosing bacteriological infections. Further work was done on it at the Mayo clinic. The Mayo clinic version is know as Mycin-II. When tested in the clinic on over five hundred people the error ratio was three percent. That means, for your math challenged brain, that about 15 people had an error in the diagnosis. When compared to five hundred randomly sampled doctor diagnosed patients there was a one hundred and sixty three percent error ratio. To explain for those that don't understand how you can have more then one hundred percent. If you spread the errors out over the total group everybody had at lest one error and sixty three percent and two errors. But in reality some people had many errors and maybe one or two had none. So are we going to see Mycin-II in hospitals??? Of course not because it is to the doctors and drug companies advantage for doctors to make mistakes. That way they can sell more drugs and doctors get paid more often.

And by the way a differential diagnosis resembles a flow chart. You start with a symptom and ask does some other symptom exist. If so continue if not ask about another symptom. This continues until all symptoms are accounted for and a diagnosis is reached. (this is the short version and I wonder how long it took you to figure it out )

You're just a young pup that is still wet behind the ears. Give yourself some time in the field and see if you are still so cocky after you have put a good number of your patients in the ground.

So I guess when u get cancer you'll just stay at home cuz those SOB's will probably kill you right?

[Formula1Wizard]

im going to school to become a doctor

[The Experiment]

_BigJoe_: Take off the tinfoil hat. Most drugs are tested rigorously before putting out there. Olestra took 29 years. However when millions take it for extended periods, thats the true test. There is no conspiracy theory behind pharmaceutical corporations and side effects. Diagnoses will be off because there are thousands of illnesses out there. It is tough (near impossible actually) to know all of them and what to do about them. Most will know about the major ones.

[Nathan1]

So I guess when u get cancer you'll just stay at home cuz those SOB's will probably kill you right?

as a matter of fact i know someone who DID stay at home(my boss) and cured herself and the same for my friends' mother whose tumor on her stomach we WATCHED monthly decrease until completely gone, and yes she got retested and everything. my brother on the other hand, had/has colon cancer and had radiation and chemo, he is 90% better(one of the lucky ones). but do i thank the docs? Nah....no offense but you don't survive cancer "because" of radiation treatments and chemotherapy, you survive "in spite of" them. sorry, but just check out how many people die each year from cancers that ARE treated by hospitals....it's still a top killer. so something doesn't add up with goin to the SOB's. somethin ain't workin....just MY OPINION of course though. i'm on both sides.....but ya gotta wonder what's really best for each person.

[No Brakes]

im going to school to become a doctor

Ok, you are 18--- you are just going to school. When and if you hit med school, then you are going to school to become a doctor.

[BringnIt]

Evidently you have not seen Doogie Howser.

[dwm230000]

Evidently you have not seen Doogie Howser.

LMAO

[Lonny]

as a matter of fact i know someone who DID stay at home(my boss) and cured herself and the same for my friends' mother whose tumor on her stomach we WATCHED monthly decrease until completely gone, and yes she got retested and everything. my brother on the other hand, had/has colon cancer and had radiation and chemo, he is 90% better(one of the lucky ones). but do i thank the docs? Nah....no offense but you don't survive cancer "because" of radiation treatments and chemotherapy, you survive "in spite of" them. sorry, but just check out how many people die each year from cancers that ARE treated by hospitals....it's still a top killer. so something doesn't add up with goin to the SOB's. somethin ain't workin....just MY OPINION of course though. i'm on both sides.....but ya gotta wonder what's really best for each person.

And who do your boss and friends mother attribute this to? A Diety? Or their own actual faith?

Blind faith goes a long way.

****, spring must just bring all the hippies out. You guys would hate Canada because "The government man. They are the establishment paying the DR's to kill us off. What we need to do is not go to DR's or buy any material goods. And stage a musical festival to show the government that they can't run our lives with their drugs. If more people just smoked more weed, everyones lives would be better. Now lets get out there and do NOTHING!"

[Com-Shuk]

as a matter of fact i know someone who DID stay at home(my boss) and cured herself and the same for my friends' mother whose tumor on her stomach we WATCHED monthly decrease until completely gone, and yes she got retested and everything. my brother on the other hand, had/has colon cancer and had radiation and chemo, he is 90% better(one of the lucky ones). but do i thank the docs? Nah....no offense but you don't survive cancer "because" of radiation treatments and chemotherapy, you survive "in spite of" them. sorry, but just check out how many people die each year from cancers that ARE treated by hospitals....it's still a top killer. so something doesn't add up with goin to the SOB's. somethin ain't workin....just MY OPINION of course though. i'm on both sides.....but ya gotta wonder what's really best for each person.

very true
my dad's friend is a moron who drank pepsi 4 times aday and hate chips for breakfast all his life and smoked a lot, got cancer very fast
with natural meds against cancer he cured himself when doctors tought nothing would ever work.
now hes still clean after 3years

[uhockey]

What does trade names have to do with anything?? It is the drug companies that give both names to the drug. I feel sorry for you. You start out wanting to help others as a physician but you end up as a drug pusher for companies that could give a **** about you. Just to prove my point what treatment modalities have you been taught that are not produced by a drug company??? Please don't say diet and exercise or I will think you are more stupid then I already do.

You are being inculturated and you don't even know it. You might even like it. You get to be called doctor and everything right? But before you get to high and mighty realize that the number three cause of death in America is mistakes by doctors. A consumer group went over all of the data on mistakes by doctors and said that doctors were the number one cause of death in America. But the AMA didn't like that so they went over the data and discarded a bunch of cases and said no we are only number three. What a joke Mr. high and mighty. But wait it gets better, 60 minutes did a show on a new industry, private autopsies. So many doctors are killing their patients that they are lying on the death certificate. So there is a new company that a private individual can send their loved ones remains to be privately autopsied. 60 minutes asked "how many inaccurate death certificates have they found?" The answer was about fifty percent. I am willing to bet that when these numbers are added in the death by doctor will rise to number one again.

To under score my point there was a computer program that came out of Stanford. It is called Mycin. Mycin is an expert system for diagnosing bacteriological infections. Further work was done on it at the Mayo clinic. The Mayo clinic version is know as Mycin-II. When tested in the clinic on over five hundred people the error ratio was three percent. That means, for your math challenged brain, that about 15 people had an error in the diagnosis. When compared to five hundred randomly sampled doctor diagnosed patients there was a one hundred and sixty three percent error ratio. To explain for those that don't understand how you can have more then one hundred percent. If you spread the errors out over the total group everybody had at lest one error and sixty three percent and two errors. But in reality some people had many errors and maybe one or two had none. So are we going to see Mycin-II in hospitals??? Of course not because it is to the doctors and drug companies advantage for doctors to make mistakes. That way they can sell more drugs and doctors get paid more often.

And by the way a differential diagnosis resembles a flow chart. You start with a symptom and ask does some other symptom exist. If so continue if not ask about another symptom. This continues until all symptoms are accounted for and a diagnosis is reached. (this is the short version and I wonder how long it took you to figure it out )

You're just a young pup that is still wet behind the ears. Give yourself some time in the field and see if you are still so cocky after you have put a good number of your patients in the ground.

You appear to think you know what you're talking about.......let me ask you this then, what is your solution? I can preach all day to the average fat, lazy, ignorant American that McDonalds will give them atherosclerosis and "put them in the ground." There is TONS of evidence that smoking will kill you.......but people still smoke. Why? Because just like the drug companies spend millions of dollars "inculturating" me in the "drug pusher" lifestyle, those companies spend millions of dollars to make people use their product.

I have given my life and $100K+ in tuition to persue a job that no longer sees the glamour it once did, that no longer pays what it once did, that people have come to disrespect...........why? To help a society of people who can't even be bothered to read the warnings and get off the ****ing couch to help themself...........and then there's some ******* like you who claims I'm doing this to hurt the patient so they come for more drugs? I DON'T NEED TO HURT A PATIENT, THIS SOCIETY IS KILLING ITSELF.

I'm tired of defending doctors on this site. Believe what you like, I know some doctors are corrupt, but I am trying and will continue to try to not become that person. There are lots of people in my class who want to persue glamour specialties like Ortho or Derm or Radiology.........I want to be a primary care doc. Why? Because I want to get there before the problems start. I don't want to be that guy who comes in and fixes a problem with a drug or a surgery..........I want to be there on the front line spreading education and PREVENTING disease. I'm not sure if a doctor killed someone you loved, whether you failed to gain acceptance to medical school, or whatever......I pity you regardless. The fact is, you are making broad generalizations about a culture of persons who have dedicated their careers to serving society.

[coofoostu]

It's not.

The role of metabolic activation in drug-induced hepatotoxicity.

Park BK, Kitteringham NR, Maggs JL, Pirmohamed M, Williams DP.

Department of Pharmacology and Therapeutics, University of Liverpool, Sherrington Buildings, Liverpool, Merseyside L69 3GE, United Kingdom. bkpark@liv.ac.uk

The importance of reactive metabolites in the pathogenesis of drug-induced toxicity has been a focus of research interest since pioneering investigations in the 1950s revealed the link between toxic metabolites and chemical carcinogenesis. There is now a great deal of evidence that shows that reactive metabolites are formed from drugs known to cause hepatotoxicity, but how these toxic species initiate and propagate tissue damage is still poorly understood. This review summarizes the evidence for reactive metabolite formation from hepatotoxic drugs, such as acetaminophen, tamoxifen , diclofenac, and troglitazone, and the current hypotheses of how this leads to liver injury. Several hepatic proteins can be modified by reactive metabolites, but this in general equates poorly with the extent of toxicity. Much more important may be the identification of the critical proteins modified by these toxic species and how this alters their function. It is also important to note that the toxicity of reactive metabolites may be mediated by noncovalent binding mechanisms, which may also have profound effects on normal liver physiology. Technological developments in the wake of the genomic revolution now provide unprecedented power to characterize and quantify covalent modification of individual target proteins and their functional consequences; such information should dramatically improve our understanding of drug-induced hepatotoxic reactions.

PMID: 15822174 [PubMed - in process]




And from the Nolvadex prescribing information:

• Liver problems, including jaundice. The signs of liver problems include lack of appetite and yellowing of your skin or whites of
your eyes.

[Strongurche]

6-OXO is scientifically proven not to reduce estrogen levels. Yes it blocks the production of estrogen, however the body compensates by creating more testosterone which then gets converted to estrogen and this process stops when estrogen levels normalize. Thus when you take 6-OXO your estrogen levels don't actually change. Just your testosterone levels go up. This fact is even pointed out in the add for 6-OXO.

You say the body compensates by producing more testosterone. And yes this is true. But how do we know the body doesn't ALSO compensate by increasing the number of estrogen receptors? When aromatase disappears and estrogen becomes starce, why should testosterone increase be the only adaptation?

And also, regarding the study you're talking about, I remember reading that estrogen levels were actually HIGHER at some points in the 6-oxo cycle than pre 6-oxo levels. Though I don't know if I'm remembering this right...someone please correct it if it's wrong.

[_BigJoe_]

hahahaha classy

But im guessing that your comment about MD's was misstated; obviously most dont know anything about sports supplements, or their effects on the endocrine system, but they oviously have substantial knowledge of the body that nobody else possesses.

I'd like to hear some opinions from some other respected members on this subject. layne, loki, etc?

What I was attempting to point out was a doctor is just a human being like yourself. If they can learn so can you. There is no secret knowledge that they have that anybody can't learn. There are a number of great places to learn anatomy, physiology and pathology on line or by courses such as those offered by the teaching company. One of my favorite places on the web is at MIT. MIT has open sourced all of their courses. You can study any class offered at MIT on line for free. You need to be self motivated but if you want to learn you can. The URL is http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/index.htm. If you want to give yourself up to the intelligence, or lack there of, of some doctor then that's is your decision. And when you die from his mistake it's on you for not taking command of your own health. I know of what I speak. My father was killed by a screw up of an MD. The reason malpractice insurance is so high priced is because there is a lot of malpractice.

Do you know what you call a doctor that graduated with a C average?
A doctor.
Do you want to put your life in the hands of a C student????

[uhockey]

What I was attempting to point out was a doctor is just a human being like yourself. If they can learn so can you. There is no secret knowledge that they have that anybody can't learn. There are a number of great places to learn anatomy, physiology and pathology on line or by courses such as those offered by the teaching company. One of my favorite places on the web is at MIT. MIT has open sourced all of their courses. You can study any class offered at MIT on line for free. You need to be self motivated but if you want to learn you can. The URL is http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/index.htm. If you want to give yourself up to the intelligence, or lack there of, of some doctor then that's is your decision. And when you die from his mistake it's on you for not taking command of your own health. I know of what I speak. My father was killed by a screw up of an MD. The reason malpractice insurance is so high priced is because there is a lot of malpractice.

Do you know what you call a doctor that graduated with a C average?
A doctor.
Do you want to put your life in the hands of a C student????

And the truth comes out......someone with an agenda. Doctors ARE regular people..........regular people who dedicate their time, 7+ years of their life AFTER college, and their money to helping and doing their best to save others. I didn't say they were all great........but if you're so smart and so dedicated, please apply to any med school.......God knows that with the current state of affairs we need more quality minds in the field.

[_BigJoe_]

You appear to think you know what you're talking about.......let me ask you this then, what is your solution? I can preach all day to the average fat, lazy, ignorant American that McDonalds will give them atherosclerosis and "put them in the ground." There is TONS of evidence that smoking will kill you.......but people still smoke. Why? Because just like the drug companies spend millions of dollars "inculturating" me in the "drug pusher" lifestyle, those companies spend millions of dollars to make people use their product.

I have given my life and $100K+ in tuition to persue a job that no longer sees the glamour it once did, that no longer pays what it once did, that people have come to disrespect...........why? To help a society of people who can't even be bothered to read the warnings and get off the ****ing couch to help themself...........and then there's some ******* like you who claims I'm doing this to hurt the patient so they come for more drugs? I DON'T NEED TO HURT A PATIENT, THIS SOCIETY IS KILLING ITSELF.

I'm tired of defending doctors on this site. Believe what you like, I know some doctors are corrupt, but I am trying and will continue to try to not become that person. There are lots of people in my class who want to persue glamour specialties like Ortho or Derm or Radiology.........I want to be a primary care doc. Why? Because I want to get there before the problems start. I don't want to be that guy who comes in and fixes a problem with a drug or a surgery..........I want to be there on the front line spreading education and PREVENTING disease. I'm not sure if a doctor killed someone you loved, whether you failed to gain acceptance to medical school, or whatever......I pity you regardless. The fact is, you are making broad generalizations about a culture of persons who have dedicated their careers to serving society.

All of what you say about doctors is true. And I do hold the altruistic ideal of the medical profession in high regard. But you and every other MD is a human being. You make mistakes. But because of the enculturalization of the modern medical community these mistakes are ignored. A good example is Terry Shrivo. She had a heart attack because an MD misread a chem panel and did not take into account her dangerously lowered potassium levels. He mistreated her and she had a heart attack. Then the medical community judged the quality of her life and killed her through starvation. The part of the story I find so interesting is she had been regularly receiving communion from a Priest. This means she could swallow on her own and did not need a feeding tube. But one was utilized because it is less time consuming then feeding by hand. When a person can swallow on their own and food and water is withheld until death occurs that's murder.

To further exemplify my point of the enculturalization that you have gone through is the fact that the first thing you wrote in you post to me was moron!! You said nothing about my admonition for everyone to take part in their own health care through self motivated study. You just tried to reinforce the myth that you, and all MDs, are some how higher minded then the rest of us. But with that said I could have used better phrasing to not be insulting to MDs in my post and for that I apologize. Today modern medicine is an industry not an altruistic scientific endeavor. To show this point all you need to do is watch NASCAR. A perscription drug is a sponsor for one of the cars. Is it a miracle life saving drug such as rituxan?? No it's a drug to get your dick hard.

I actually feel for you, no joke I do, I have many family member that are MDs and also many friends. Most of my friends that are MDs have stopped practicing because of the industrial nature of modern medicine in America. I am sure you know that if, in your practice, you advocate for a from of therapy that is not based on products from a pharmaceutical company you will be investigated. But if you are killing your patients left and right with products from a pharmaceutical company you can continue treating as long as you want. This is the nature of modern medicine and only you and the rest of the medical community can change it.

To show my point why does the medical community not scream their heads off over the lack of ethics of the "New England Journal of Medicine?" For those that don't know the story. The "New England Journal of Medicine" had an ethic statement that said that if an author of an article had a financial stake in what the article was about then this should be clearly stated in the article. Sounds good right. But they didn't uphold this ideal and a consummer group called them on it. Their response was yes this is true we will correct the problem right away. So they changed their ethics statement. When ethics are variable based on economic factors they are no longer ethics!! Only you can change this doc. It's your reputation that others are despoiling. Why do you sit by and let it happen???

Also you are almost correct about my situation. Yes my father was killed by a mistake from an MD, but I don't hold that against him. When it happened he came out to where I was to tell me what had happened. I could tell that he was hurting as much over this as I was so I gave him a hug and told him it was OK we are all only men. Also I love science. I think the scientific method is the greatest invention man has ever created. And I scrimpted and saved and studied my ass off from the time I was nineteen till I was thirty in an attempt to go to medical school, I have a friend that did it when he was fifty. But I was talked out of it by a close friend that is an MD. All of the arguments he used are the ones I have presented and that was over twenty years ago. The problems have only gotten worse.

One last thing doc, I'm not an *******. I am advocating for the exact same thing that you are. That people get off their asses. Take command of their own lives and health care. Study and learn what they need to ask intelligent questions of their health care provider and use them as a resource but not treat them like a god. Because if you do there is a good chance you will meet the devil.

[_BigJoe_]

I didn't say they were all great........but if you're so smart and so dedicated, please apply to any med school.......God knows that with the current state of affairs we need more quality minds in the field.

I am more then twice your age and I have made enough money so my two children will grow up in a good home, my son is six and my daughter is 10. When I was an undergrad I was invited to join an international honors society, I accepted. I took the test for mensa, just to see where my IQ was, and was invited to join, I declined.

I am going back to school. But to quote the Chinese author, Lu Xun, of the yearly nineteenhundreds. Who was in medical school in Japan when he had an epiphany. He saw how human beings treated each other and said "What good does it do to heal a man's body when his soul is sick?" And with this in mind I am working towards a Doctorate in Religious Studies. Also to quote a friend of mine that was a federal agent, "There is nothing you can do. The problem is to big. All you can do is fall back and help the wounded."

Also I do wish you good luck and no hard feelings but if I could give you a word of advice please refrain from using Ad Hominem attacks. Using things like moron and ******* does not help you or your cause.

Just one more thing. The MD that talked me out of going to medical school has a sign in his office. It say's:

If you want to feel better see a doctor and take drugs.
If you want to get better see an acupuncturist and take herbs.
If you want to be happy read the classics and help others.

[mugger]

If you want to feel better see a doctor and take drugs.
If you want to get better see an acupuncturist and take herbs.
If you want to be happy read the classics and help others.

Amen to that.

[Phelan]

Do you want to put your life in the hands of a C student????

Well we put a c student in charge of our nuclear arsenal and so far we are still alive.

[BringnIt]

Einstein failed math?/science?/english?/something. But then again he was just an idiot...

[No Brakes]

Well we put a c student in charge of our nuclear arsenal and so far we are still alive.

That might not be the best way to state your case, "so far".

[Phelan]

That might not be the best way to state your case, "so far".

Well, I can hardly vouch for the future.
But I am quite confident that I'll be able to say the same thing as above in 4 years.

[No Brakes]

Well, I can hardly vouch for the future.
But I am quite confident that I'll be able to say the same thing as above in 4 years.

I undestood what you meant. It just didn't sound too convincing.

[_BigJoe_]

So I guess when u get cancer you'll just stay at home cuz those SOB's will probably kill you right?

I have thought about what you wrote and have gone over what I wrote and I just can't see how someone with two working brain cells can interpret what I said as don't go to the doctor. My only conclusion is you don't have two working brain cells. The fact that you interchangeably use the letter "u" with the word "you" would tend to bear this observation out.

Just so you are clear, maybe a lost cause but let us hope, I would like to see you educate yourself so that you understand how your body works. Doctors have belly buttons and mothers just like you. They learned from reading books and listening to lectures. Hey so can you, well maybe not you but most people can. Take responsibility for your own life and learn about how your body works. As soon as you have some basic things studied, like anatomy, physiology and pathology, then you can use resources, such as medline, to research any topic that might be of interest to you. Such as that pain on urination and dripping you have. This way when you have a disease or condition you can study that disease or condition and read everything ever published about it. Then when you see a doctor and he says "Here take med X" you can ask why not med Y? Because you have read about both med X and med Y along with all the others. If your doc says "because we have a deal worked out with the drug company and that's all we offer" which is the case at the HMO Kaiser, or with socialized medicine in Canada, you can make an informed choice on what treatment you think is best. Why do you think so many people are flying to India from Canada when there is socialized medicine in Canada???????

As for something like cancer. When you get cancer it's like someone breaking into your house and trying to kill you. Sure you will call the police but you better fight your ass off until they get there.

Also I have had cancer. I used every tool I could get my hands on. I did use chemo therapy, but not blindly. I consulted with a number of people and read everything I could, the internet is great. I also used Acupuncture and herbal medicine. And I am in great shape now. I bet I have more young chicks smile at me in the gym then you do. And I'm pushing fifty.

One more thing. That's going to cost you an arm and a leg Mr. Bill.

[uhockey]

I have thought about what you wrote and have gone over what I wrote and I just can't see how someone with two working brain cells can interpret what I said as don't go to the doctor. My only conclusion is you don't have two working brain cells. The fact that you interchangeably use the letter "u" with the word "you" would tend to bear this observation out.

Just so you are clear, maybe a lost cause but let us hope, I would like to see you educate yourself so that you understand how your body works. Doctors have belly buttons and mothers just like you. They learned from reading books and listening to lectures. Hey so can you, well maybe not you but most people can. Take responsibility for your own life and learn about how your body works. As soon as you have some basic things studied, like anatomy, physiology and pathology, then you can use resources, such as medline, to research any topic that might be of interest to you. Such as that pain on urination and dripping you have. This way when you have a disease or condition you can study that disease or condition and read everything ever published about it. Then when you see a doctor and he says "Here take med X" you can ask why not med Y? Because you have read about both med X and med Y along with all the others. If your doc says "because we have a deal worked out with the drug company and that's all we offer" which is the case at the HMO Kaiser, or with socialized medicine in Canada, you can make an informed choice on what treatment you think is best. Why do you think so many people are flying to India from Canada when there is socialized medicine in Canada???????

As for something like cancer. When you get cancer it's like someone breaking into your house and trying to kill you. Sure you will call the police but you better fight your ass off until they get there.

Also I have had cancer. I used every tool I could get my hands on. I did use chemo therapy, but not blindly. I consulted with a number of people and read everything I could, the internet is great. I also used Acupuncture and herbal medicine. And I am in great shape now. I bet I have more young chicks smile at me in the gym then you do. And I'm pushing fifty.

One more thing. That's going to cost you an arm and a leg Mr. Bill.

Well, I can say we agree on one thing, there is nothing more irritating than someone saying "Canada is better than the US because they have socialized medicine." What an ass backwards system. Regarding your PM, it really is a good idea and once the USMLE is out of the way it may be something I consider. There is a bit of an issue with your decription of changes to the oath as MOST of them were inacted to allow people like me (who do not have doctors for parents) and females to study medicine. I will get back to you via PM later this week when my plate isn't so full.

[bofeity]

What a true statement...They will also most always go for recommending a prescription drug over a supplement, or natural remedy.

You act as if alliopathic medicine is something new...