Dont Use Anti-estrogens

[freaker]

PA, you'd better post up in here. I'm not gonna be happy if I get gyno from 6-OXO. Anyway, I'd really like to hear what Patrick Arnold has to say about this. BTW, your avatar over at Avant is cool, but I really do get tired of seeing your ugly mug. Is that real or is that something you did just to have a funny picture?

[RepubCarrier]

estrogen is far easier for the body to make than testosterone, test. suppresion briefly wont cause the body to make more test. receptors. testosterone is very different than estrogen.
test. takes alot longer to create than estrogen

are you freakin retarded? Estrogen is MADE FROM TESTOSTERONE.

[greencapper]

i don't know if doctors will prescibe this but i work in radiation therapy..and most prostate cancer patients get drugs that have estrogen in them..so in response to that..99% of those patients that take that drug we give them 500 rads of radiation aroudn each nipple for 4 days to bsaically kill tissue and it stops about 95% of the chances of getting bitch titties

[eojonescb]

Mmmmmmmm chicken breasts!!

Wheres ILOVEBOOBS for this comment?? LOL

[uhockey]

estrogen is far easier for the body to make than testosterone, test. suppresion briefly wont cause the body to make more test. receptors. testosterone is very different than estrogen.
test. takes alot longer to create than estrogen

By what logic do you make this statement?

[Patrick Arnold]

i just talked to my doctor and he said that when you use an anti aromatise it causes your body to produce more estrogen receptors, so when you stop taking anti E, like 6oxo, you will be more prone to getting breast tissue and it will develop very fast so when you stop using anti E's your body will have more estrogen, nolvadex and clomid dont work like that though

well since 6-OXO doesn't lower estrogen levels very much but does increase testosterone quite a bit (the explanation for this is on my website) then even if what your doctor said were true it should not be relevant to 6-OXO

I would like to know the evidence for his theory, beyond him just speculating that it happens

[The Doc]

Mr. Arnold, I PMed you a quick Psychotropin question.

The Doc

[dungeon1]

PA what are your thoughts on the kid who says that it is easier to create estrogen than testosterone? I would imagine that because the source for estrogen in males is through conversion from testosterone, someone could rather easily distort info to make this appear to be true; however I feel that it is complete BS and doctors who are regularly overweight or rather fragile looking individuals should shut the **** up.

[neuron]

i just talked to my doctor and he said that when you use an anti aromatise it causes your body to produce more estrogen receptors, so when you stop taking anti E, like 6oxo, you will be more prone to getting breast tissue and it will develop very fast so when you stop using anti E's your body will have more estrogen, nolvadex and clomid dont work like that though

That is true, but 6-OXO probably doesn't lower it to a point where your body needs more estrogen receptors. Rebound XT on the other hand...

Nolvadex is a receptor modifier/competitor, so it shouldn't upregulate estrogen receptors.

[50joe]

I thought that Rebound XT was an AI too?

[Formula1Wizard]

omg its patrick arnold!! hese rich!, my doctor doesnt know what 6oxo is but he said that it happens to people with supressed estrogen

[Strongurche]

6-oxo is a suicide inhibitor of aromatase, meaning it perminently inactivates the enzyme that converts testosterone to estrogen. So as soon as you start taking 6-oxo, aromatase levels drop say 75% (I'm making this up for the purpose of explanation...the percentage it drops is going to be proportional to how much 6-oxo you're taking). As a result of less aromatase, estrogen levels hit the floor and the body starts pumping out extra testosterone to compensate, so that what little aromatase is left has more testosterone (substrate) to convert to estrogen and restabilize estrogen levels. Patrick Arnold says, in his study, that at a normal 6-oxo dose or whatever, estrogen levels aren't supressed for very long because the heightened testosterone levels allow enough substrate to be aromatized, such that estrogen levels return to normal fairly quickly.

Now, concerning the issue of coming off 6-oxo and an estrogen rebound effect... When you come off 6-oxo, assuming aromatase levels return to the pre 6-oxo level and not higher, then for a short time there is going to be a ton of substate (testosterone) around to convert. For this reason I think a brief estrogen spike is plausable for non-suicidal inhibitors of aramotose however since 6-oxo perminantly inactives the enzyme and since it takes the body time to make it a natural tapering effect should be seen. However I seem to remember in Patrick Arnold's study (correct me if I'm wrong) that estrogen levels while on 6-oxo were actually higher than pre 6-oxo levels at some point in the cycle -- could this be a result of estrogen receptors upregulating for the same reason testosterone increases (to restablize estrogen)? Receptor upregulation seems to be just as valid an adaptation response as the testosterone increase for which 6-oxo is widely used.

[The Experiment]

I heard estrogen rebound happened with Letrozole but not with Anti-Es in general. I've taken anti-Es to get rid of gyno. Its been a month later and no new tissue. Just former tissue gone forever.

If you want to be safe, taper down the Anti-Es. That will reduce the risks of any rebounding I believe.

[_BigJoe_]

estrogen is far easier for the body to make than testosterone, test. suppresion briefly wont cause the body to make more test. receptors. testosterone is very different than estrogen.
test. takes alot longer to create than estrogen

This is not true. In a man estrogens are created from testosterone, or androstenedione, by aromatization. As far as 6-oxo causing an upgrading of estrgen receptors is just plane BS. The fast majority of MDs don't know their Butt Holes from holes in the ground. All they know is what they learned in Med school and that was controlled my the drug companies.

The next time you are at your doctors ask him to back up what he said with articles published on medline. If he can't email you at lest three studies that backup what he says then he is full of it.

Also you can use medline to do your own research on medical issues. Well worth the time to learn how to use medline. Learn how to use medline and research your medical questions before going to the doc then you will be able to ask intelligent questions and check the answers the doc gives you. I think you will be shocked and how little they really know.

Here is a link to an article published on line at Indiana State University that gives a good introduction to hormones.
http://web.indstate.edu/thcme/mwking...-hormones.html

What's the difference between a hormone and an enzyme???
You can't hear an enzyme.

[Strongurche]

From an article Big Cat posted in the steroids section regarding Aromatase Inhibitors:

"4.The second thing that came to mind is that estrogen seems to downregulate its receptor as well in most tissues. This means in very low levels of estrogen (like those that will occur with aromatase blockers) we will actually see an upregulation (2) of the estrogen receptor. When You then stop taking your AI, the estrogen level that was previously there is acting on a greater density of receptors and will be more prone to cause problems. "

Entire article:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=210434

[neuron]

I thought that Rebound XT was an AI too?

It is, however, from ancedotal reviews, its active ingredient has a greater affinity for estadiol than does 6-OXO - leading to an adaptive increase in estrogen receptors (i.e. estrogen rebound).

[Calstar]

This thread is starting to freak me out. I've been stacking Unleashed and Post Cycle from the P Factory for about 3 weeks. Am I doomed or what? Should I taper the last week of this stack?

Unleashed:

Servings Size 3 capsules
Servings Per Container 30
Avena Sativa (with at least 7% Avenacosides A&B) 500 mgs
Muara Puama: 12:1 active extract 500mgs
Trimethyglycine 1000mgs
Xanthoparmilia Scabrosa: 50mgs
Urtica dioica: 100 mgs
Ashwagandha: Standardized to 1.5%Withanolides 500 mgs

Post Cycle:

Serving Size 3 Capsules (once per day)
Servings per Container 30
Milk Thistle:80%Silymarin 100mgs
Epimedium 500 mgs
N-Acetyl Cysteine 50 mgs
Pirkoliv (Ayurvedic herb) 100 mgs
r-ALA 10 mgs
Lecithin (containing Phosphatidyl Choline) 250 mgs
Maca 500 mgs
Calcium D-Glucarate 25 mgs
5, 7 Dihydroxyflavone 500 mgs
Bioperine 5 mgs
Cindium Monnieri 50 mgs
Zinc Aspartate 15 mgs
Arginine 250 mgs

[sprung]

I heard estrogen rebound happened with Letrozole but not with Anti-Es in general. I've taken anti-Es to get rid of gyno. Its been a month later and no new tissue. Just former tissue gone forever.

If you want to be safe, taper down the Anti-Es. That will reduce the risks of any rebounding I believe.

Which one did you try? Do you think Rebound XT should be tapered down.

[jhferry]

Disturbing whats coming out about all these products. Just goes to show you how much testing they need before we start popping them like tic tacs. Its coming out now that Rebound should not be used as a pct for SD if you want your lipids kept intact.

[The Experiment]

Which one did you try? Do you think Rebound XT should be tapered down.

I've done Nolvadex and Rebound XT. Every Anti-E should be tapered down. Nolvadex isn't candy either; its harsh on the liver but I don't think its as bad as lets say SD or M1T. The point of PCT is to make sure the HPTA returns to normal. By going high doses and then leaving it, its like doing a hormone cycle - too much T and not enough E. So more E is made to counter it.

Trust me, tapering down anti-Es will not cause gyno or anything like that. Millions of bodybuilders spanning back decades will tell you that. So this isn't some huge shock or new news.

[uhockey]

All they know is what they learned in Med school and that was controlled my the drug companies.

Moron. The drug companies most certainly do not control medical schools. Continuing education, very much so, but not the actual schools........we aren't even taught trade names until we are actually prescribing them. Also, you may want to rephrase that and say all they know about supplements, because I'd be willing to bet you can't run a differential diagnosis or a head to toe physical........

[neuron]

This thread is starting to freak me out. I've been stacking Unleashed and Post Cycle from the P Factory for about 3 weeks. Am I doomed or what? Should I taper the last week of this stack?

Unleashed:

Servings Size 3 capsules
Servings Per Container 30
Avena Sativa (with at least 7% Avenacosides A&B) 500 mgs
Muara Puama: 12:1 active extract 500mgs
Trimethyglycine 1000mgs
Xanthoparmilia Scabrosa: 50mgs
Urtica dioica: 100 mgs
Ashwagandha: Standardized to 1.5%Withanolides 500 mgs

Post Cycle:

Serving Size 3 Capsules (once per day)
Servings per Container 30
Milk Thistle:80%Silymarin 100mgs
Epimedium 500 mgs
N-Acetyl Cysteine 50 mgs
Pirkoliv (Ayurvedic herb) 100 mgs
r-ALA 10 mgs
Lecithin (containing Phosphatidyl Choline) 250 mgs
Maca 500 mgs
Calcium D-Glucarate 25 mgs
5, 7 Dihydroxyflavone 500 mgs
Bioperine 5 mgs
Cindium Monnieri 50 mgs
Zinc Aspartate 15 mgs
Arginine 250 mgs

No. That stack is fine. You don't have to taper.

[neuron]

I've done Nolvadex and Rebound XT. Every Anti-E should be tapered down. Nolvadex isn't candy either; its harsh on the liver but I don't think its as bad as lets say SD or M1T. The point of PCT is to make sure the HPTA returns to normal. By going high doses and then leaving it, its like doing a hormone cycle - too much T and not enough E. So more E is made to counter it.

Trust me, tapering down anti-Es will not cause gyno or anything like that. Millions of bodybuilders spanning back decades will tell you that. So this isn't some huge shock or new news.

Why is nolvadex hard on the liver?

[Calstar]

No. That stack is fine. You don't have to taper.

Thanks Tri. Not to go off topic but going into week 4 of this stack I'm really not impressed. I've made gains (strength and size) but I think I could easily contribute that to Bulk CEE and my diet.

My sex drive never went crazy like I think it should have if this stack was effective.

[dio]

Why is nolvadex hard on the liver?

It's not.

[_BigJoe_]

Moron. The drug companies most certainly do not control medical schools. Continuing education, very much so, but not the actual schools........we aren't even taught trade names until we are actually prescribing them. Also, you may want to rephrase that and say all they know about supplements, because I'd be willing to bet you can't run a differential diagnosis or a head to toe physical........

What does trade names have to do with anything?? It is the drug companies that give both names to the drug. I feel sorry for you. You start out wanting to help others as a physician but you end up as a drug pusher for companies that could give a **** about you. Just to prove my point what treatment modalities have you been taught that are not produced by a drug company??? Please don't say diet and exercise or I will think you are more stupid then I already do.

You are being inculturated and you don't even know it. You might even like it. You get to be called doctor and everything right? But before you get to high and mighty realize that the number three cause of death in America is mistakes by doctors. A consumer group went over all of the data on mistakes by doctors and said that doctors were the number one cause of death in America. But the AMA didn't like that so they went over the data and discarded a bunch of cases and said no we are only number three. What a joke Mr. high and mighty. But wait it gets better, 60 minutes did a show on a new industry, private autopsies. So many doctors are killing their patients that they are lying on the death certificate. So there is a new company that a private individual can send their loved ones remains to be privately autopsied. 60 minutes asked "how many inaccurate death certificates have they found?" The answer was about fifty percent. I am willing to bet that when these numbers are added in the death by doctor will rise to number one again.

To under score my point there was a computer program that came out of Stanford. It is called Mycin. Mycin is an expert system for diagnosing bacteriological infections. Further work was done on it at the Mayo clinic. The Mayo clinic version is know as Mycin-II. When tested in the clinic on over five hundred people the error ratio was three percent. That means, for your math challenged brain, that about 15 people had an error in the diagnosis. When compared to five hundred randomly sampled doctor diagnosed patients there was a one hundred and sixty three percent error ratio. To explain for those that don't understand how you can have more then one hundred percent. If you spread the errors out over the total group everybody had at lest one error and sixty three percent and two errors. But in reality some people had many errors and maybe one or two had none. So are we going to see Mycin-II in hospitals??? Of course not because it is to the doctors and drug companies advantage for doctors to make mistakes. That way they can sell more drugs and doctors get paid more often.

And by the way a differential diagnosis resembles a flow chart. You start with a symptom and ask does some other symptom exist. If so continue if not ask about another symptom. This continues until all symptoms are accounted for and a diagnosis is reached. (this is the short version and I wonder how long it took you to figure it out )

You're just a young pup that is still wet behind the ears. Give yourself some time in the field and see if you are still so cocky after you have put a good number of your patients in the ground.

[mr00bill]

What's the difference between a hormone and an enzyme???
You can't hear an enzyme.

hahahaha classy

But im guessing that your comment about MD's was misstated; obviously most dont know anything about sports supplements, or their effects on the endocrine system, but they oviously have substantial knowledge of the body that nobody else possesses.

I'd like to hear some opinions from some other respected members on this subject. layne, loki, etc?

[The Monstrosity]

he said that it how the body works though, low estrogen means more receptors

6-OXO is scientifically proven not to reduce estrogen levels. Yes it blocks the production of estrogen, however the body compensates by creating more testosterone which then gets converted to estrogen and this process stops when estrogen levels normalize. Thus when you take 6-OXO your estrogen levels don't actually change. Just your testosterone levels go up. This fact is even pointed out in the add for 6-OXO.

[BringnIt]

BigJoe, let's not lump all doctors into the same mold. Doctors possess an incredible amount of knowledge on the human body, etc. No disrespect for the original poster, but if he comes in and asks his doctor about any negative side-effects of 6-oxo and his doctor isn't familiar with it does, he's likely going to ask, "Well, what's it for?" Unless the original poster knew exactly what 6-oxo does and how it does it, the doctor can only go on the basis of what he is told it does. As for medline, pubmed, any sites like that, it is doctors who provide that information, and you know that. And I love how everyone (not referring to you) can come on here and insult doctors' knowledge. It's entirely different to know what something does than it is to know HOW it does it.

[Formula1Wizard]

damn theres some really smart ppl in these forums