Protein + Fat & Protein + Carb Only Meals

[blaugrana555]

John Berardi recommends me this in his nutritional articles, what is everybody's take on this? I personally eat P+C+F all the time but I was wondering whether P+F and P+C only meals were more "optimal"?

[epote]

mind you P+F does include vegies and fruits!

for bulking reasons its prety good, berardi knows his **** (most of the time) but in the end what pays of is consistency and hard work...

the diference is minimal, so if you eat clean theres little to worry about.

but the fact is that sports wise the p+c, p+f meals do keep a prety stable insulin so it kind of helps with the work outs

[blaugrana555]

What do you mean when you say "for bulking reasons it's good"? Can you please elaborate?

[taffer]

its all a load of BS, dont listen to berardi

[gaberox]

One benefit of this would be to avoid carbs and fat meals.Especially high gi carbs beacuse the insulin spike works to store the fat you ate with it.Of the macronutrients fat obviously is most easily stored as fat.So a protien fat meal or a carb protien meal can avoid this.

[xenithon]

Give it up guys We all know BB.com is affectionately known as Anti-Berardi.com

[taffer]

One benefit of this would be to avoid carbs and fat meals.Especially high gi carbs beacuse the insulin spike works to store the fat you ate with it.Of the macronutrients fat obviously is most easily stored as fat.So a protien fat meal or a carb protien meal can avoid this.

there is so many reasons why that is incorrect
steve and/or ghost will explain it

[RipStone]

Here my take on Berardi's meal combo theory. I followed it for about 4-5 months. I made minimal gains and had a major lack of energy. I decided it eas too hard to eat enough calories only eating p+f, p+c meals. So I decided to eat balanced meals. For me, I found it much easier to eat enough caloires eating balanced meals and as a result I was able to finally gain weight. Just my 2c.

[xxghostxx]

So a protien fat meal or a carb protien meal can avoid this.

Hehe, Taffer could have explained this... I thank Lyle McDonald for debunking it so many times over. while it's wonderful and idealistic to think that not eating carbs with fat prevents them from being stored (based on the simplistic notion that only insulin stimulating HSL can store fat), it shows that Berardis not up on the research.

There's a new protein in town, called ASP (acylation stimulating
protein) that stores fat in fat cells that doesn't require insulin for
activation (in fact, rats who are bred HSL deficient, but who have ASP
present still get fat.

Guess what stimulates ASP activity?
If you said the presence of fat (actually chylomicrons, produced by the
intestinal hydrolysis, absorption and resynthesis of TG in the
intestines) in the bloodstream, you'd be correct. Translation: dietary
triglycerides can store themselves just fine and dandy without insulin
present. There's a protein present in chylomicrons that 'turns on' ASP
activity, which then stores the triglycerides in the fat cells.

See:
Cianflone, K et. al. Actylation stimulating protein (ASP), an adipocyte
autocrine: new direction. Cell and Developmental Biology (1999) 10: 31-41.
See also
Londos, C. et. al. On the control of lipolysis in adipocytes. Ann NY
Academy of Sciences (1999) 892: 155-168.
Maslowska, M. et. al. Acylation Stimulating protein (ASP): Role in
adipose tissue. Chapter 8 in "Progress in Obesity Research: 8" Ed. Guy
Grand and Ailuaud (1999) 65-70.

Long story short: separating out carbs from fat doesn't work to prevent
fat gain, although it'd be lovely if it did. If it did, you could eat
as much fat as you wanted on a ketogenic diet and not get fat. And that
doesn't work either.

On top of which, protein + carbs is FAR more anabolic than protein +
fat. Even if such silliness did prevent you from getting fat, it'll
also limit anabolism because more of the protien will get converted to
glucose in the liver."

[bignbeefy]

i dunno i do something like that right not to bulk, trying to not combine carbs and fats. Dunno about the bernardi thing, but i didn't get it from that. But being an endomorph i've found by trial and error that it works for me. It may not work for everyone, thats what makes bodybuilding a bit different than a lot of sports. I do 3 meals of low carb/high protein/high fat, and 3 meals of low carb/high protein/high fat, seems to work well for me and i get over 3000 calories a day.

BIGS

[ChewB4Swallow]

blaugrana555

Don't listen to a bunch of teenage e-thugs bashing a Ph. D. Follow his diet for a while and see how it goes. Oh wait, teenagers know everything, so follow their advice to the letter.

[KingOfChaos]

I agree with him. It's better to get your fats SEPERATE from any sort of carbs....simply because it makes it that much harder for your body to store any of it as actual adipose tissue.

[BackInTheJox]

I agree with him. It's better to get your fats SEPERATE from any sort of carbs....simply because it makes it that much harder for your body to store any of it as actual adipose tissue.

So what you're saying is, you have not even read this thread. Had you done so, you'd understand why your logic is flawed.

[KingOfChaos]

So what you're saying is, you have not even read this thread. Had you done so, you'd understand why your logic is flawed.

Yes, and if you'd look at my signature, you'd see that my logic is not flawed and in fact works. Then again, I make sure and still eat under my maintenance level when cutting, so the fat is still coming off.

Everyone's body reacts differently to nutrition.

[epote]

Hehe, Taffer could have explained this... I thank Lyle McDonald for debunking it so many times over. while it's wonderful and idealistic to think that not eating carbs with fat prevents them from being stored (based on the simplistic notion that only insulin stimulating HSL can store fat), it shows that Berardis not up on the research.

mate you are severly skiping to conclusions there.

its a no brainer that fat will be stored as fat *faster* when in a higly insulemic enviroment.

the masive eating thing does not even propose that tryglycerides are convertet to adipose tissue only through insulin, merely that insulin helps that.

More over, eating protein + fat meals (mind you protein + fat mean something like lean beef, lots of vegies and perhaps some fish oil) for most of the day reserving carbs for post work out (i.e the 2-3 meals after the work outs, not only imediately after) keeps a very steady insulin profile up to the training.

have you ever tried it? I am a sprinter, i work out on average 2 hours a day, my work outs include short sprints, wheight lifting, tempo sessions, plyos a whole bunch of thing.

if i do the mistake of say eating pasta 1-3 hours before working out i get hammered, i just cant perform. On the other hand, not eating carbs at all (any form of ketosis) is obviously a stupid thing to do, the berardi thing, after i adapted it to my needs helps me keep a relatively full glycogen storage while keeping my insulin steady.

its by no means a miracle, but saying its crap is also harsh.

in any case, berardi is mostly refering to athletes, not body builders, bb'ers are diferent animals, have not even close to the energy requirments an athlete has so they can manipulate their nutrition more freely.

What do you mean when you say "for bulking reasons it's good"? Can you please elaborate?

the main point of the masive eating thing, is being on calorie surplus while minmising (*not* eliminating fat gain) its easier to plan C+F and C+P meals when eating 5000kcal and much harder when eating 2500kcal, the reasons are practical.

Here my take on Berardi's meal combo theory. I followed it for about 4-5 months. I made minimal gains and had a major lack of energy. I decided it eas too hard to eat enough calories only eating p+f, p+c meals. So I decided to eat balanced meals. For me, I found it much easier to eat enough caloires eating balanced meals and as a result I was able to finally gain weight. Just my 2c.

im not getting it, it was dificult eating enough calories while on a P+F and P+C seperation while it was easier to eat them when P+F+C. that makes no sense...I mean you eat say 400 gr of carbs, 250 of protein and 70 of fat/day, i cant see where the distribution is a problem, instead of eating two servings of rice one in two meals along with meat and vegies, eat on one meal the two serving together with meat and the other eat it along with vegies and some olive oil.

no offence (honestly, i like you all guys) but you have a problem with berardi when you have dextrose after every work out....i mean, come on...!

gost:

regarding the studies you presented. Are they suposed to contradict berardi? if so in what way? For gods sake, its all about calories, no one said anywhare that *only* insulin causes fat gain.

in the end its berardi that is mundane, i know virtually no bb'er that does not minimize fat consumption after training while elevating protein and carb intake . 99% of us here eat cottage cheese and penut butter pre bed. That is we do a P+C and P+F meal. Yet berardi is a load of crap...

talk about prejudice...

[Tatsumaru]

I eat all of my meals P+C or P+F when I cut... but when I bulk I have a steady flow of nutrients most of the time. I don't really care but I feel it works.

[corple]

i usually get my carbs in more at the beginning of the day, and they slowly tapper down as the day goes on and my fat intake slowly goes up. fat right after workout is no good, cause its lows absorption down. i usually get my days fat starting 2-3 hours after my workout. and low fat before and around workout times.

[blaugrana555]

Honestly, I'd like to try it out but it just seems inconvenient to plan something eating P+F and P+C only means rather than all 3 altogether. I'm wondering whether the benefits are worth it?

[xxghostxx]

mate you are severly skiping to conclusions there.

its a no brainer that fat will be stored as fat *faster* when in a higly insulemic enviroment.

the masive eating thing does not even propose that tryglycerides are convertet to adipose tissue only through insulin, merely that insulin helps that.

Agreed. Insulin inhibits HSL, and therefore will limit lipolysis, we both understand how insulin works, but this is where I lose Berardis train of thought. What is technically wrong with the situation is it's taken at extremes. "Fat will be stored as fat *faster* when in a highly insulemic enviroment." I don't understand where the idea comes from that he thinks we'd be eating something like loaded with lots of fats/ especially saturates which stimulate higher insulin secretion, with a bunch of carbohydrates. I'm not arguing a case to nail down a meal with dextrose and peanut butter here, but from how that article comes across, that is the situation too which he seems to be implying it. True that is the typical "Westerner Diet," but bodybuilders/athletes are far from typical. Most bodybuilders are eating lower glycemic, lower insulinogenic carbohydrates in general outside of the pwo enviroment. Berardi has even gone on record in the follow up articles to state that low glycemic carbohydrates get the go ahead with the lovely P+F meals (see Massive Eating Part II).

gost:

regarding the studies you presented. Are they suposed to contradict berardi? if so in what way? For gods sake, its all about calories, no one said anywhare that *only* insulin causes fat gain.

in the end its berardi that is mundane, i know virtually no bb'er that does not minimize fat consumption after training while elevating protein and carb intake . 99% of us here eat cottage cheese and penut butter pre bed. That is we do a P+C and P+F meal. Yet berardi is a load of crap...

talk about prejudice...

Hehe, nope, no contradiction, just illustrating a point, it seemed as if Berardis logic was that by nixing insulin, we completely stop the ability of the body to store fat, which would mean you could eat infinite amount of calories on a keto diet and still be losing. But I know he isn't that rediculous . Your second point, I just feel the Berardi took that insulin-fat storage metabolism data to far to the extremes, and sort of implying the Westerner diet to a bodybuilder diet (although some bodybuilders fall into this still..poor saps). I agree to take fat out of the pwo equation though, I don't see where anyone argued that, fat delays gastric emptying, obvious point. Yes, a lot of people do a pre bed P+F meal, for many of these guys, they've fully maxed out what they were aiming for achieving in their carbohydrate intake earlier in the day, so they aim to satisfy the remaining macro requirements at the end, and that might happen to dismiss carbohydrates.

BTW - I like a good civil argument, thank for you doing it without flaming and such. *Awaits rebuddle *

[epote]

I don't understand where the idea comes from that he thinks we'd be eating something like loaded with lots of fats/ especially saturates which stimulate higher insulin secretion, with a bunch of carbohydrates. I'm not arguing a case to nail down a meal with dextrose and peanut butter here, but from how that article comes across, that is the situation too which he seems to be implying it. True that is the typical "Westerner Diet," but bodybuilders/athletes are far from typical. Most bodybuilders are eating lower glycemic, lower insulinogenic carbohydrates in general outside of the pwo enviroment. Berardi has even gone on record in the follow up articles to state that low glycemic carbohydrates get the go ahead with the lovely P+F meals (see Massive Eating Part II).

agreed, though any disputal here is based purely on scematics

i am aware of the reloaded articles and truth be told he is kind of stating the obvious, don eat crap, eat low G.I-G.L food, lots of protein etc. Hell thats what all athletes and body builders do My objection was on the "what a load of crap" statement, not because im a berardi fun, merely because the eating habits he proposes are prety trivial among us.

it seemed as if Berardis logic was that by nixing insulin, we completely stop the ability of the body to store fat, which would mean you could eat infinite amount of calories on a keto diet and still be losing.

if only that would be.... how much easier things would become

I agree to take fat out of the pwo equation though, I don't see where anyone argued that, fat delays gastric emptying, obvious point.

another reason for limiting PWO fat would be to avoid its rapid convertion to adipose. What i mean is that in most cases a PWO meal is constituded by some form of high g.i simple sugar and abundant amounts of protein, point being that the body needs nutritiens fast and efficiently. An insulin spike would cause the faster absorbsion. If fat was present it would too get stored.

i must say though, high G.I pwo meals sould be reserved only for after the most intence work outs. Either through sear volume or prolonged exposure to great intencity and not after *every* work out. Experience has tought me that messing around with insulin too often results in mood swings. Though that could just be me

Yes, a lot of people do a pre bed P+F meal, for many of these guys, they've fully maxed out what they were aiming for achieving in their carbohydrate intake earlier in the day, so they aim to satisfy the remaining macro requirements at the end, and that might happen to dismiss carbohydrates.

a rather typical point of view for the P+F meal pre bed is the fact that fats delay (as you clearly state ofcource) the absorbsion of nutrients, thus giving a slow steady release of protein throughout the night to avoid catabolism.

be that as it may, any and all gains come from healthy eating habits the rest are details based on (simplistic perhaps) notions of our understanding of metabolism. Diet is a very personal thing, and especialy at the semi advanced level of bodybuilders and athletes what works sould be based on personal excperience and not berardi or some sticky in our (excelent) forums.

[Steve_W]

Hello to those who practice voodoo nutrition. My name's Steve and I'm going to kick your ass..ok maybe not, but just educate you a little.

Your model of insulin = fat storage is completely wrong. This is an old outdated model which is in fact bordering incorrect. Fat can be stored with NO or little insulin present. The reasoning behind this voodoo nonsense is this outdated model of fat cell metabolism.

Problems
1. It takes only tiny amounts of insulin to affect fat cell metabolism
2. Protein more than sufficiently raises insulin this much so protein + fat works just as well to both inhibit fat cell mobilization and stimulate storage of nutrients.
3. Insulin is important to increase LPL activity. Lpl was thought to be rate limiting for fat storage but this is not the case. All LPL does is release fatty acids from chylomicrons.
4. Acylation stimulation protein (ASP) is the real player in triglyceride synthesis in the fat cell. It is stimulated by the mere presence of chylomicrons in the bloodstream and is insulin indepdendent. So whether you eat your fat with carbs protein or by itself, the dietary fat is going to get stored. Separating it out from carbs isn't going to make a ****'s worth of difference.

^ that clear enough for you?

The body is simply way to smart to make stuff like this work. I've searched and seen only one study looking specifically at food combining (they compared a food combining diet, and Berardi gives the standard set of rules to a non-food combining diet at the same weight loss calorie levels) There was no difference. The body simply has too many redundant pathways to make stuff like this work.

Fats by themselves can stimulate TG synthesis (and FFA uptake into adipocytes) in an insulin independent nature. Seperating carbs and fat doesn't make any damn difference.

There's this little bitch of a metabolic pathway called the Acylation Stimulation Protein (ASP) pathway which allows this to happen. It's stimluated by one of the apoproteins on the chylomicrons and allows fat storage even in the complete absence of lipoprotein lipase (LPL, previously thought to be the rate limiting step for FFA uptake and fat synthesis).

That is, the old picture was that insulin increased LPL activity (as well as inhibiting HSL, hormone sensitive lipase which is the rate limiting step for fat breakdown and release into the bloodstream) and that's all that mattered for fat storage. But it's out of date. Chlyomicrons (produced from the digestion of fat in the gut) stimulate FFA uptake and triglyceride synthesis into fat cells all by themselves, even in the absence of insulin. Because our bodies hate us.

As well, it only takes tiny, tiny amounts of insulin to active fat storage in fat cells (even the levels after an overnight fast inhibit fat breakdown by half of the maximal rate) so the protein stimulated insulin release will have an effect.

To conclude: Seperating your carbs from your fat will not make an ounce of difference apart from the fact that it's not optimal nor will you feel good. The body has too many other pathways to make nonsense like this happen, fat can stored without insulin perfectly easily.

[xxghostxx]

Hello to those who practice voodoo nutrition. My name's Steve and I'm going to kick your ass..ok maybe not, but just educate you a little.

I bet Don Lemmon has a big flaming crush on you!!!

[blaugrana555]

Thanks Steve, I'll stick with P+C+F then

BTW, when you say "it's not optimal (P+C, P+F)" why is this? Does this imply that all my meals should have good portions of all 3 (except PWO and before sleep)?

I do normally eat P+C+F for most of my meals, but I have the occasional P+C or P+F only meals, how is this "not optimal"?

EDIT: Just clarifying that I'm not arguing here, just wanting an explanation because I'm curious

[Steve_W]

Thanks Steve, I'll stick with P+C+F then

BTW, when you say "it's not optimal (P+C, P+F)" why is this? Does this imply that all my meals should have good portions of all 3 (except PWO and before sleep)?

I do normally eat P+C+F for most of my meals, but I have the occasional P+C or P+F only meals, how is this "not optimal"?

EDIT: Just clarifying that I'm not arguing here, just wanting an explanation because I'm curious

P + F meals alone aren't optimal for many reasons.

1) People complain about lack of energy
2) It's nowhere near as anabolic or anti-catabolic as p + c or even a mixed meal
3) This method means slamming large amounts of fat or carbs in certain meals which is a hassle. I remember doing this (not food combining per se, just keep fat away from the workout completely, even ppwo) and I had to eat ALOT of fat in other meals.

Yes, immediately pwo you don't want large amounts of fat and before bed carbs aren't going to make any difference provided you obey the laws of thermodynamics (don't eat too much ).

IMO the best pre bed meal would contain protein, carbs and fibre and fat. This way you have the p + c for anabolic/anti-catabolic reasons and the fibre + fat to delay the gastric emptying. Many people find it hard to fit the calories from carbs in before bed therefore don't use them though eating carbs before bed won't make any difference provided they fit into your calorie allotment.

[jah191]

I take a tbsp of flax+fish oil after just about every meal. This along with a few tbsp of nat pb and some olive oil in my brown rice is my only fats for the day. Do you see any problem with this?

NO I dont put peanut butter in my rice those are two separate things.

[blaugrana555]

P + F meals alone aren't optimal for many reasons.

1) People complain about lack of energy
2) It's nowhere near as anabolic or anti-catabolic as p + c or even a mixed meal
3) This method means slamming large amounts of fat or carbs in certain meals which is a hassle. I remember doing this (not food combining per se, just keep fat away from the workout completely, even ppwo) and I had to eat ALOT of fat in other meals.

Rep for that

Thanks for the explanation, so you are still saying that P+C meals are OK right?

[epote]

Your model of insulin = fat storage is completely wrong.

a)where in gods name do you see that? Please, either give me directions on the berardi articles with that hypothesis or quote one of my posts.

the "model" if you can describe it like that is "increased insulin+lots of fat in the blood=increased fat storage" do you have any objections there?

Yes, immediately pwo you don't want large amounts of fat

why?

before bed carbs aren't going to make any difference provided you obey the laws of thermodynamics (don't eat too much ).

well isnt that obvious? if you are within you caloric limits, eating prety much anything (including trash food, candies etc) will not get you fatter....will it...?

perhaps you sould try eating only pizza for a couple of weeks (2500kcal worth of pizza) and tell us the results

you tend to forget the fact that we are not dealing with the average couch potato here. Bodybuilders when bulking are in a caloric surplus for months at a time. What about carbs pre bed, then?

you are denying things that have been used over and over again (with results) for decates. Its not as simple as "carbs pre bed=fat" if it where we would of have been extincted a couple thousant years ago, but people have used it and it works...

when science starts dictating the excperiment result you are bound to do a screw up. I would know, i am a scientist

1) People complain about lack of energy
2) It's nowhere near as anabolic or anti-catabolic as p + c or even a mixed meal
3) This method means slamming large amounts of fat or carbs in certain meals which is a hassle. I remember doing this (not food combining per se, just keep fat away from the workout completely, even ppwo) and I had to eat ALOT of fat in other meals.

we are not talking about ketogenic diets here mate. While on food combinations i felt more consistent throughout the day, while when eating (lots of) carbs before work out i just couldnt perform. If glucogen stores are filled P+F meals help stabilize insulin giving a more energy consistent profile.

define alot of fat...a tablespoon of olive oil is alot of fat?

(btw, try eating carbs before working out, and tell me how your work out wenr....not fruits and vegies, e mean carbs as in rice or bread or pasta)

The body is simply way to smart to make stuff like this work. I've searched and seen only one study looking specifically at food combining (they compared a food combining diet, and Berardi gives the standard set of rules to a non-food combining diet at the same weight loss calorie levels) There was no difference. The body simply has too many redundant pathways to make stuff like this work.

agreed, but we are talking about a caloric surplus here. The masive eating thing is for BULKING purposes.

in the end you dont even need fat at all to store adipose. body can convert excess glucose to fat as you obviously know...

To conclude: Seperating your carbs from your fat will not make an ounce of difference apart from the fact that it's not optimal nor will you feel good.

except PWO for some peculiar reason....

[BackInTheJox]

Yes, and if you'd look at my signature, you'd see that my logic is not flawed and in fact works. Then again, I make sure and still eat under my maintenance level when cutting, so the fat is still coming off.

Everyone's body reacts differently to nutrition.

Jesus Christ, KingOfChaos, you were like 856% body fat, virtually ANY type of diet would have to result in weight loss for you.

Now, almost everyone ELSE in the world is much different, and for your average person, more care should be taken when putting together a diet.

Please, for the love of God, don't use yourself as an example of what to do or what not to do, for you are an anomaly as it is. Advising someone on eating habits who is perhaps 20-30lbs overweight is a lot different than tailoring a diet for someone whose body fat percentage is off the charts like yours was.

[Steve_W]

a)where in gods name do you see that? Please, either give me directions on the berardi articles with that hypothesis or quote one of my posts.

the "model" if you can describe it like that is "increased insulin+lots of fat in the blood=increased fat storage" do you have any objections there?

Yes I do, did you not read ANYTHING I said. Fat can be stored with no or hardly any insulin present. Just because there's lots of fats flowing in your bloodsteam with no insulin doesn't make any difference. I'll repeat myself.

"There's this little bitch of a metabolic pathway called the Acylation Stimulation Protein (ASP) pathway which allows this to happen. It's stimluated by one of the apoproteins on the chylomicrons and allows fat storage even in the complete absence of lipoprotein lipase (LPL, previously thought to be the rate limiting step for FFA uptake and fat synthesis).

That is, the old picture was that insulin increased LPL activity (as well as inhibiting HSL, hormone sensitive lipase which is the rate limiting step for fat breakdown and release into the bloodstream) and that's all that mattered for fat storage. But it's out of date. Chlyomicrons (produced from the digestion of fat in the gut) stimulate FFA uptake and triglyceride synthesis into fat cells all by themselves, even in the absence of insulin. Because our bodies hate us."

So, if you want to practice voodoo nutrition, and you're using your model of insulin = fat storage then protein insulin release will have an effect, another flaw of the theory.

"As well, it only takes tiny, tiny amounts of insulin to active fat storage in fat cells (even the levels after an overnight fast inhibit fat breakdown by half of the maximal rate) so the protein stimulated insulin release will have an effect."

[ChewB4Swallow]

Ya'll are blowing this way out of proportion. Berardi isn't saying that you won't get fat seperating fat and carbs. That has to do with how many calories you take in, but what he is saying is to focus on P + C in the morning and post workout because that is when you need energy the most.

Also, Epote, your post is way of base. You have no idea what you are talking about.