Usnic Acid VS Sodium Usniate

**WHOSYOURDADDY02** · 07-21-2002, 09:17 PM

I am trying to figure out the real differences between the two. The one thing we do know is that sodium usniate is a derivative of usnic acid.

Windwords commented on sodium usniate and stated, "because of the sodium in it, overcomes the solubility issues that UA has and is therefore more bioavailable and theoretically then, more effective. But I'm not scientist and I can't say that it is true or not."

I cannot vouch for this statement either. Some studies reported usnic acid to have a bioavailability near 80%...if sodium usniate is higher than that, I would assume it is not much higher.

Any input is appreciated.

**windwords7** · 07-21-2002, 09:19 PM

I think most people consider them to be very similar. I have not taken either and I am still unsure if I will. Jonblaze has been my biggest source of instruction on this topic. I will be interested to learn what others in the "know" have to say.

**WHOSYOURDADDY02** · 07-21-2002, 09:22 PM

Originally posted by windwords7
I think most people consider them to be very similar. I have not taken either and I am still unsure if I will. Jonblaze has been my biggest source of instruction on this topic. I will be interested to learn what others in the "know" have to say.

Thanks bro, I look foward to hearing some more info as well. Check ur email. Thanks

**Par Deus** · 07-21-2002, 09:51 PM

I am just as curious on that one as you are -- RockECU has done quite a bit of research and said there is nothing more on bioavailability on either other than the rabbit study (that found 80%) on UA.

In case you have not seen it on my board, I am taking SU right now and have taken as much as 1.4 grams at once. I tend to think they likely are not that much different -- SU is probably more stable, being a salt of UA.

**windwords7** · 07-21-2002, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by Par Deus
I am just as curious on that one as you are -- RockECU has done quite a bit of research and said there is nothing more on bioavailability on either other than the rabbit study (that found 80%) on UA.

In case you have not seen it on my board, I am taking SU right now and have taken as much as 1.4 grams at once. I tend to think they likely are not that much different -- SU is probably more stable, being a salt of UA.

I agree, I think they are very much the same.

**WHOSYOURDADDY02** · 07-21-2002, 10:01 PM

In that case, what is the recommended dosage for SU? I notice that 1fast's bottles are 90 caps, 100mg per cap. Most people have been running a good 500-750mg of UA.

**WHOSYOURDADDY02** · 07-21-2002, 10:08 PM

Also, if we are saying that they are essentially the same as far as effects go, maybe we should examine side effects. There have been reports of a few rashes from usnic acid. Is this consistent with sodium usniate?

**Jonblaze639** · 07-21-2002, 10:20 PM

As far as i know, and this is not engraved in stone....Sodium Usinate is a derivative of UA. the sodium salt in SU helps make the stuff more bioavaliable by making UA water soluable, this should, at least theoretically make SU yield better results than UA.

**WHOSYOURDADDY02** · 07-21-2002, 10:45 PM

Through an internet search I found this. It is Derek from syntrax explaining products in an interview.

It is Sodium Usniate, which is a derivative of usnic acid. I have seen a few products with straight usnic acid in them but we concluded that these were not very effective due to bioavailability problems. The sodium salt overcomes this problem by making the usnic acid water-soluble and thus much more bioavailable. Sodium Usniate is the only supplement of its kind and does a better job of raising the metabolic rate than anything currently available

1. Bioavailability problems? I wonder what those were...

2. Not very effective? Where did this come from?

**Jonblaze639** · 07-21-2002, 10:54 PM

i stated the same exact thing...i read it somewhere..i can't remember, i think it was MD magazine, or somewhere else but it wasn't from anyone that had anything to do w/ syntrax.

**WHOSYOURDADDY02** · 07-21-2002, 10:59 PM

Originally posted by Jonblaze639
i stated the same exact thing....

Yeah, I know ...I just thought I show who said it.

Doing a search online for sodium usniate sucks. All I keep finding is information on lipokinetix.. blah

**Jonblaze639** · 07-21-2002, 11:18 PM

no no no....i'm saying i saw the same thing as what that guy said somewhere else....i know i didn;t read it from some syntrax guy....i think i read the same thing in MD mag...but i seriously dunno where i read it....i was pointing out that it's two sources saying the same thing, evne though mine really isn't a source.

**jb1309** · 07-21-2002, 11:48 PM

In bunny rabbits Plasma usnic acid levels following intravenous administration showed a triexponential elimination with a mean +/- SD terminal half-life of 10.7 +/- 4.6 hr. Plasma concentration data obtained after oral administration were analyzed using a noncompartmental method. Peak plasma level (Cmax) of 32.5 +/- 6.8 micrograms/ml was achieved in 12.2 +/- 3.8 hr (tmax). Mean absolute bioavailability of usnic acid following oral administration was 77.8%.

I dont know how close we are to rabbits but its 8.4 hours to 16 hours before usnic acid even reachs peak plasma levels in bunnys blood after oral administration (must be some slow ass absorbing ****??) and I dont really know how you would interpret the intravenous administration half-life data on the half life after oral administration in humans because you have to take into acount absorbtion time. It makes you wonder how much it builds up in your body if your taking say your 500mg spaced through out the day or just taking it twice a day. I wonder what the Multiple dosing to a Steady-State would be?

**Bobo** · 07-22-2002, 06:03 AM

Originally posted by WHOSYOURDADDY02
There have been reports of a few rashes from usnic acid. Is this consistent with sodium usniate?

Thats what I want to know.

**windwords7** · 07-22-2002, 06:18 AM

It would be interesting to know if the SU as an extract of UA is free from whatever compound that it is UA causing the rashes in some bro's. There has to be some thread on some boards somewhere about this....maybe?

WW7

**Bobo** · 07-22-2002, 07:11 AM

I remember people getting slight rashes from Lipokinetix so I'm assuming the allergic properties are still there, but I don't think its nearly as the severity as some of the ones higher doses of UA has caused.

**1fast400** · 07-22-2002, 07:35 AM

Maybe I should go hopping through the forrest with a carrot in my mouth

Is that one study the only one on absorbtion of UA? I know there isn't anything on SU.

**musclescientist** · 07-22-2002, 12:14 PM

Vestn Dermatol Venerol 1968 Apr;42(4):89-91 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut

[Treatment of trichomoniasis in men with antibiotics-sodium salt of usnic acid]

[Article in Russian]

Shkliar II.

A disease caused by Trichomonads, a human sexually transmitted disease occuring esp. as vaginitis with a persistent discharge and caused by a trichomonad (chomonas vaginalis) that may also invade the male urethra and bladder.

Should theoretically be more bioavailable. This was the only study listing the "Usnic Acid Sodium Salt Dihydrate." And it is not called Sodium Usniate*TM*....

Other synonyms for Usnic Acid are:
2,6-Diacetyl-7,9-dihydroxy-8,9b-dimethyl-1,3(2H,9bH)-dibenzofurandione; usninic acid, usnein. C18H16O7; Mol wt 344.31.

LD50 in mice: 25mg/kg (Gottlieb, Shaw) Soly at 25 cel. (g/100ml)

Sodium salt Dihydrate. C18H15NA07.2H20 Pale yellow, Slightly sol in water.

Musclescientist
"Also known as Sabertooth"

Originally posted by WHOSYOURDADDY02
I am trying to figure out the real differences between the two. The one thing we do know is that sodium usniate is a derivative of usnic acid.

Windwords commented on sodium usniate and stated, "because of the sodium in it, overcomes the solubility issues that UA has and is therefore more bioavailable and theoretically then, more effective. But I'm not scientist and I can't say that it is true or not."

I cannot vouch for this statement either. Some studies reported usnic acid to have a bioavailability near 80%...if sodium usniate is higher than that, I would assume it is not much higher.

Any input is appreciated.

**WHOSYOURDADDY02** · 07-22-2002, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by Bobo
I remember people getting slight rashes from Lipokinetix so I'm assuming the allergic properties are still there, but I don't think its nearly as the severity as some of the ones higher doses of UA has caused.

Lipo only had like 100mg of sodium usniate in it. I don't remember how many pills people were popping each day, but I would assume very few, if any, took enough lipokinteix to get up to a good gram of sodium usniate. If they did, it's not surprising people were getting sick!! Either way, since SU was only really used in combination with other products and not in the same dosages as UA, we cannot state whether their side effects are the same or if dosages need to be the same.

**jb1309** · 07-22-2002, 12:32 PM

there was 100mg of sodium usniate in it in one pill. SO if you were taking 2 3 times a day they were getting 600mg of Sodium usinate a day. Considering the long half-life that is enough to make u pretty Sickly if you ask me.

**WHOSYOURDADDY02** · 07-22-2002, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by jb1309
there was 100mg of sodium usniate in it in one pill. SO if you were taking 2 3 times a day they were getting 600mg of Sodium usinate a day. Considering the long half-life that is enough to make u pretty Sickly if you ask me.

Was that the correct dosage? 6 pills of lipo per day?

**jb1309** · 07-22-2002, 12:53 PM

http://www.lipokinetixclasslaw.com/about.html

**Bobo** · 07-22-2002, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by WHOSYOURDADDY02

Was that the correct dosage? 6 pills of lipo per day?

Also, I read that the effective dosage of SU was much less than UA, so take that into account. Then again we are all working off a lot of speculation.

**WHOSYOURDADDY02** · 07-22-2002, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by Bobo

Also, I read that the effective dosage of SU was much less than UA, so take that into account. Then again we are all working off a lot of speculation.

Can you provide a reference? If that is true, syntrax didn't know it cause they were recommending just as much SU as we do of UA....

**RockECU** · 07-22-2002, 04:28 PM

I really don't see how SU can be a DERIVATIVE of UA when the base UA molecule doesn't contain a sodium atom. How can something be a derivative of something when you must ADD that group onto the base molecule, especially when the new molecule you've just formed from adding that group isn't found in nature as an actual derivative of the original? It's a new substance IMO, not a derivative. Not entirely diff't, but new nonetheless.

**windwords7** · 07-22-2002, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by RockECU
I really don't see how SU can be a DERIVATIVE of UA when the base UA molecule doesn't contain a sodium atom. How can something be a derivative of something when you must ADD that group onto the base molecule, especially when the new molecule you've just formed from adding that group isn't found in nature as an actual derivative of the original? It's a new substance IMO, not a derivative. Not entirely diff't, but new nonetheless.

Good point. Now that's a post that makes sense.

**Bobo** · 07-22-2002, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by WHOSYOURDADDY02

Can you provide a reference? If that is true, syntrax didn't know it cause they were recommending just as much SU as we do of UA....

Nope. No reference. Just remembering some bro's on other boards using SU instead if UA. There results were quite nice on low dosages without the the side effects of high UA dosages. If I remember correctly they were using the surplus Syntrax had due to the pulling if Lipo. There recommendation was for 300-600mg total of SU per day. Most people I see here are using 750-1000mg of UA oer day.

Pardon the bad grammar....

**1fast400** · 07-24-2002, 05:07 PM

Well I guess now is the time to find out....I just got all of it in.

100mg/90 caps

1=22.50
2=40.00
3-56.00

We will see what happens I guess. New website should be up in about 4 days...saw it for the first time today...NICE!!!!!

**DaddyR** · 07-24-2002, 06:30 PM

What I don't get is all of the confusion on this. Sodium Usniate is the sodium salt of Usnic acid. The only part of the Usnic Acid molecule that is missing in sodium usniate is one or more of the acidic hydrogens, and they normally come off to some extent in solution anyway.

Put Usnic Acid in solution, and it will establish an equilibrium with H+ and the Usniate ion. With Sodium Usniate, you simply have an ionic compound which dissolves into the Usniate ion and the Sodium ion. As an ionic compound it dissolves more completely in water than the associated acid, whose dissociation is to a certain extent pH-dependent. Hmmmm does anyone know the Ka (acid dissociation constant) for Usnic Acid?

Unless the desired biological effects are based entirely on the acidic property of Usnic Acid, Sodium Usniate should have basically the same type of effects.

If the additional water solubility results in greater bioavailability (easier uptake from the gut, easier transport and access to the site of action), then you shouldn't need to take as much Sodium Usniate as Usnic Acid to get an equal response. How to quantify that I couldn't tell you though I could make some wild-ass guesses if I had a lot more info.

**jweave23** · 07-24-2002, 06:41 PM

Man, I'm just not sure here guys, I keep going back and forth debating UA or SU (currently cutting and want to get it soon!). I may try some of 1fast's SU here. I was thinking of trying maybe 500mg (100mg 5x daily) at first then going upwards to 1g if needed. I saw Par's post of 1.5g (I think?), but anyone else try SU at a higher dosage? I've read the UA threads, sounds promising.

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