Creatine Ethyl Ester - MAJOR ISSUES

[w_llewellyn]

I am prepairing a full report on this in the next iss of Body of Science, so I see no problems with starting a general discussion about the issue here today. You will all be made aware of this soon enough.

As you may or may not know, we've got a new section where we send various supplement samples in for lab analysis, to see how the products in general stand up. Last issue we did prohormones, and disclosed none of the participants, pass or fail. This issue we decided we were going to name the "PASS" companies (not by actual number, but just pass/fail 90% of claim), just so consumers at least know some of the good products to buy. This time we sent in a total of 7 creatine ethyl ester samples.

Analysis has dragged on for 4 weeks, as the lab wanted to be sure they were accurate, and are still prepairing full analysis results showing not only the CEE% in each product, but what the other material consitutents were (creatine monohydrate, creatinine).

NONE OF THE PRODUCTS PASSED. IN FACT, NONE EVEN CAME CLOSE. SOME HAD NO CEE AT ALL. SOME HAD VERY LITTLE.

I love this industry and the ingenuity behind many of the new products that spring up all the time. I sincerely hope company owners reading this do not take my post as offensive, or as a knock against CEE. I just felt this issue was very important to talk about. There may indeed be much low grade CEE circulating the market at this time, and I am sure the companies selling the materials are paying top dollar, and are unaware.

Now I am not dicrediting the option that my testing may be wrong, but I am confident enough at this time to make this post. I fear that there may even be serious manufacturing or stability issues with CEE, and perhaps this testing is indicitave of a more fundamential problem.

I will NOT be disclosing the names of the companies tested, don't ask.

[smitty99]

pm me the names and I will disclose. This way everyone is well informed.

[pu12en12g]

1) I'm guessing that you tested "name brand" CEE products correct ?

2) What did they contain (if not CEE) ?

[w_llewellyn]

1) I'm guessing that you tested "name brand" CEE products correct ?

2) What did they contain (if not CEE) ?

Yes. They tended to contain a combination of the following: low or no CEE, creatine monohydrate, and creatinine. By low I mean that off-hand, nobody hit 40-50%. I expect a final report in a few days. The lab is doing some additional work on the other components, as I'd guess they expect a ****storm over this.

[Lok7y]

LoL...oh the power of placebo.

This makes me even happier I stuck with CP.

[animalfan]

damn, everytime i am about to order cee something like this comes up. guess i'll stay with the mono, since it's so cheap. at least you know what your gonna get, right?

[pu12en12g]

LoL...oh the power of placebo.

This makes me even happier I stuck with CP.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=413476

[Budhaka]

Yes. They tended to contain a combination of the following: low or no CEE, creatine monohydrate, and creatinine. By low I mean that off-hand, nobody hit 40-50%. I expect a final report in a few days. The lab is doing some additional work on the other components, as I'd guess they expect a ****storm over this.

Next time it wold be nice if you were to test the bulk powder's such as tp.com

[Matt96teg]

LoL...oh the power of placebo.

This makes me even happier I stuck with CP.

Or the power of CrM.

[Lok7y]

Good point. I still don't see what everyone's beef with CrM is. It's only the most scientifically well-established-and-clinically-proven-to-be-effective ergogenic aid of all time...

[sicosico]

I am prepairing a full report on this in the next iss of Body of Science, so I see no problems with starting a general discussion about the issue here today. You will all be made aware of this soon enough.

As you may or may not know, we've got a new section where we send various supplement samples in for lab analysis, to see how the products in general stand up. Last issue we did prohormones, and disclosed none of the participants, pass or fail. This issue we decided we were going to name the "PASS" companies (not by actual number, but just pass/fail 90% of claim), just so consumers at least know some of the good products to buy. This time we sent in a total of 7 creatine ethyl ester samples.

Analysis has dragged on for 4 weeks, as the lab wanted to be sure they were accurate, and are still prepairing full analysis results showing not only the CEE% in each product, but what the other material consitutents were (creatine monohydrate, creatinine).

NONE OF THE PRODUCTS PASSED. IN FACT, NONE EVEN CAME CLOSE. SOME HAD NO CEE AT ALL. SOME HAD VERY LITTLE.

I love this industry and the ingenuity behind many of the new products that spring up all the time. I sincerely hope company owners reading this do not take my post as offensive, or as a knock against CEE. I just felt this issue was very important to talk about. There may indeed be much low grade CEE circulating the market at this time, and I am sure the companies selling the materials are paying top dollar, and are unaware.

Now I am not dicrediting the option that my testing may be wrong, but I am confident enough at this time to make this post. I fear that there may even be serious manufacturing or stability issues with CEE, and perhaps this testing is indicitave of a more fundamential problem.

I will NOT be disclosing the names of the companies tested, don't ask.

wow, not new news, but at least a confirmed source, could you list the brands you tested at least , and where it has been tested! did you test any of the bulk powders?

[secondsight]

I am prepairing a full report on this in the next iss of Body of Science, so I see no problems with starting a general discussion about the issue here today. You will all be made aware of this soon enough.

As you may or may not know, we've got a new section where we send various supplement samples in for lab analysis, to see how the products in general stand up. Last issue we did prohormones, and disclosed none of the participants, pass or fail. This issue we decided we were going to name the "PASS" companies (not by actual number, but just pass/fail 90% of claim), just so consumers at least know some of the good products to buy. This time we sent in a total of 7 creatine ethyl ester samples.

Analysis has dragged on for 4 weeks, as the lab wanted to be sure they were accurate, and are still prepairing full analysis results showing not only the CEE% in each product, but what the other material consitutents were (creatine monohydrate, creatinine).

NONE OF THE PRODUCTS PASSED. IN FACT, NONE EVEN CAME CLOSE. SOME HAD NO CEE AT ALL. SOME HAD VERY LITTLE.

I love this industry and the ingenuity behind many of the new products that spring up all the time. I sincerely hope company owners reading this do not take my post as offensive, or as a knock against CEE. I just felt this issue was very important to talk about. There may indeed be much low grade CEE circulating the market at this time, and I am sure the companies selling the materials are paying top dollar, and are unaware.

Now I am not dicrediting the option that my testing may be wrong, but I am confident enough at this time to make this post. I fear that there may even be serious manufacturing or stability issues with CEE, and perhaps this testing is indicitave of a more fundamential problem.

I will NOT be disclosing the names of the companies tested, don't ask.

Thanks for the disclosure and post... we do need some self regulation to keep up integrity.

[gut23]

Next time it wold be nice if you were to test the bulk powder's such as tp.com

wouldnt they all get them from the same factories in china?

[pu12en12g]

wouldnt they all get them from the same factories in china?

Even if they all came from the same factory, company _____ might be more concerned with profits vs. a bulk powder company.

[sicosico]

wouldnt they all get them from the same factories in china?

not really, there are many companies that produce creatine and its salts ! so no

[w_llewellyn]

The possibility exhists that there are a handful of bulk suppliers overseas. Perhaps synthesis is difficult, and some are releasing very low grade product while others have it down so to speak. Since I haven't seen a pure CEE test yet, I can't discredit the possibility that there are other things going on.

I really can't disclose any names. I would only do so if the brand passed, and none did this time. I'd be in for an instant lawsuit if I did, and I'd rather not get into that.

I went for brand names because I wanted to offer the most useful info for the most number of people. If we ever grow to a big profitibale publication, you can be assured we'll be doing a whole lot more testing, and such online bulk suppliers are also of interest to me.

I really wish I had better news this time. I certainly wasn't expecting this. If anything, I was starting to think I did something to piss the lab off, and they were sitting on my samples foroever out of spite..

[J-Rod]

LoL...oh the power of placebo.

This makes me even happier I stuck with CP.

No ****! That is exactly what I thought.

[J-Rod]

pu12en12g, maybe you could post all the CEE brands being sold. Hint, Hint.

[Slated]

All I can say is... wow

[w_llewellyn]

I do want to clarify that I believe this clearly is an issue at the bulk supply level. The problem wouldn't be this bad if it were the companies themselves, although admittedly each shares some responsibility.

[NAP_s_king]

Good point. I still don't see what everyone's beef with CrM is. It's only the most scientifically well-established-and-clinically-proven-to-be-effective ergogenic aid of all time...

Because people always want the new magic pill/powder to make them hyuge

And some people don't tolarate CrM too well. I've taken it for years on and off, yet I still get an upset stomach when "on".

[Budhaka]

I do want to clarify that I believe this clearly is an issue at the bulk supply level. The problem wouldn't be this bad if it were the companies themselves, although admittedly each shares some responsibility.

Did you test VPX CEX? for quality?

[pu12en12g]

I do want to clarify that I believe this clearly is an issue at the bulk supply level.

In addition to that, can we clarify one other thing ?

Were the products that you tested, pure CEE products ? In other words... CEE listed as the only ingredient ?

[An Inconvenient Bro]

So Bill.......who were the brands that failed?










just kidding

[gut23]

The possibility exhists that there are a handful of bulk suppliers overseas. Perhaps synthesis is difficult, and some are releasing very low grade product while others have it down so to speak. Since I haven't seen a pure CEE test yet, I can't discredit the possibility that there are other things going on.

I really can't disclose any names. I would only do so if the brand passed, and none did this time. I'd be in for an instant lawsuit if I did, and I'd rather not get into that.

I went for brand names because I wanted to offer the most useful info for the most number of people. If we ever grow to a big profitibale publication, you can be assured we'll be doing a whole lot more testing, and such online bulk suppliers are also of interest to me.

I really wish I had better news this time. I certainly wasn't expecting this. If anything, I was starting to think I did something to piss the lab off, and they were sitting on my samples foroever out of spite..

Does this even include a certain brand that is only sold at gnc? notice no names mentioned.

[w_llewellyn]

Did you test VPX CEX? for quality?

Yeah, like I am going to answer that..

[Bacardi]

I'm half way through a CEE cycle, Cre2, and let me tell you that I was better off with creatine mono. I don't feel like the Cre2 is doing anything to me. I'm pretty sure I have one of the low grade ones. I bought mine from d..p..s.. nutrition.

[w_llewellyn]

Does this even include a certain brand that is only sold at gnc? notice no names mentioned.

You guys are all shameless..

[UnleashedBeast]

Hey Bill, just curious as to which HPLC you used for testing?

[w_llewellyn]

Hey Bill, just curious as to which HPLC you used for testing?

I don;t have the details of the testing methods on hand. I got the results via phone. I will have more info when the final report arrives.