What's more important? Quick absorbing protein PWO or casein protein before bed?

[vadox6466]

I workout generally right before bed because it fits my schedule the best..I was wondering which is more for me right after my workout (and also right before bed), getting fast absorbing protein, or having slow-absorbing protein for overnight?.. My two choices are whey protein in water, or a protein shake (milk, cottage cheese, whey protein)


What do you guys think?

[teen8ger]

i wouldnt take milk before bed due to the insulin spike it causes..

most of the bodybuilders have seen great results from taking cottage cheese only and they will continue to do so... because IT WORKS. Stick with what works.

[mrader59]

Any chance to have your PWO shake then eat an hour later before bed?

[vadox6466]

so if I have my PWO meal (whey protein in water) right after I workout, what is the earliest I can have my pre-bed meal (.5c CC, 1.5c Milk, 1 scoop whey, 1 TBSPN PB)

[CrackAddictX03]

Having WHEY before bed is just a waste of powder.

[mrader59]

so if I have my PWO meal (whey protein in water) right after I workout, what is the earliest I can have my pre-bed meal (.5c CC, 1.5c Milk, 1 scoop whey, 1 TBSPN PB)

An hour afterwards would be a good time.

[Clive Jones]

i wouldnt take milk before bed due to the insulin spike it causes..

most of the bodybuilders have seen great results from taking cottage cheese only and they will continue to do so... because IT WORKS. Stick with what works.

Uhmmmmmmmmmmm?

Milk before bed is absolutely fine. Hell, I drink 3-4 glasses directly before bed sometimes...
Milk is actually considered low on the GI index, therefore not causing a spike in insulin levels, something such as candy with high sugar would do that. Get your facts right.
Milk is casein which is slow digesting which is fantastic while your sleeping for 7 hours...
most bodybuilders see great results from cottage cheese? LOL where did that come from...I agree it is beneficial for protein source...i just dont know LOL "IT WORKS"

Nothing personal man.

[mrader59]

Uhmmmmmmmmmmm?

Milk before bed is absolutely fine. Hell, I drink 3-4 glasses directly before bed sometimes...
Milk is actually considered low on the GI index, therefore not causing a spike in insulin levels, something such as candy with high sugar would do that. Get your facts right.
Milk is casein which is slow digesting which is fantastic while your sleeping for 7 hours...
most bodybuilders see great results from cottage cheese? LOL where did that come from...I agree it is beneficial for protein source...i just dont know LOL "IT WORKS"

Nothing personal man.

Agreed. I drink milk every night near bedtime.

[rockstarsar]

Milk before bed is absolutely fine. Hell, I drink 3-4 glasses directly before bed sometimes...
Milk is actually considered low on the GI index, therefore not causing a spike in insulin levels, something such as candy with high sugar would do that. Get your facts right.
Milk is casein which is slow digesting which is fantastic while your sleeping for 7 hours...

No, actually, milk does rank high on the insulin index. And an insulin spike will blunt the release of growth hormone.

I quote Alan Aragorn here: "Despite having a very low GI of 15-36, milk and yogurt have a high insulin index equivalent to that of the high-GI white bread [5]."

[xxghostxx]

No, actually, milk does rank high on the insulin index. And an insulin spike will blunt the release of growth hormone.

I quote Alan Aragorn here: "Despite having a very low GI of 15-36, milk and yogurt have a high insulin index equivalent to that of the high-GI white bread [5]."

Just a little support for Rockstarsars comments here.
http://www.mendosa.com/insulin_index.htm

[Clive Jones]

Just a little support for Rockstarsars comments here.
http://www.mendosa.com/insulin_index.htm

I dont care, nor believe what either of you are saying..because, I cannot find a single bit of info on or about or by Alan Aragorn...In addition, I found no journals or articles stating a study was done and proved to show milk spiked insulin levels. ANd the article By mendosa...who is he to say anything? Hes a web writer, not a scientist. And also, that article he wrote didnt say anything on the subject. Milk wasnt even listed on his table. and The article/study he quotes, I just looked it up and it didnt say anything regarding milk and insulin spikes either.

I found a couple here and there that normal people question or head about dairy may cause a larger increase in insulin levels even though it has a low GI, but there is no evidence, they were statements from other boards/members.


Your telling me milk should not be drinken before bed? Its not beneficial. I think most on this board will agree milk is awesome. regardless. anything under 55 is considered low, whole milk at 27, you cannot compare that with a peice of sugary candy or white rice at over 70+ - 98 on the GI..milk is superior by far.

In conclusion, this is coming from someone who posted MMM milk...
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=441008

and...I just found out alan is just a member here. He has a thread about how much he loves milk pre/post workout..etc
(even if we're talking about before bed, doesnt matter)

[grndmstrflsch]

I dont care, nor believe what either of you are saying..because, I cannot find a single bit of info on or about or by Alan Aragorn...In addition, I found no journals or articles stating a study was done and proved to show milk spiked insulin levels. ANd the article By mendosa...who is he to say anything? Hes a web writer, not a scientist. And also, that article he wrote didnt say anything on the subject. Milk wasnt even listed on his table. and The article/study he quotes, I just looked it up and it didnt say anything regarding milk and insulin spikes either.

I found a couple here and there that normal people question or head about dairy may cause a larger increase in insulin levels even though it has a low GI, but there is no evidence, they were statements from other boards/members.


Your telling me milk should not be drinken before bed? Its not beneficial. I think most on this board will agree milk is awesome. regardless. anything under 55 is considered low, whole milk at 27, you cannot compare that with a peice of sugary candy or white rice at over 70+ - 98 on the GI..milk is superior by far.

In conclusion, this is coming from someone who posted MMM milk...
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=441008

and...I just found out alan is just a member here. He has a thread about how much he loves milk pre/post workout..etc
(even if we're talking about before bed, doesnt matter)

i agree. i drink a cup of milk before bed with my cottage cheese before bed every night, and i still look dam good! it hasn't harmed me whatsoever. forget studies and whatnot. how about you try it and see if you start getting fat or damaging your body by drinking milk before bed. most likely...you wont

[rockstarsar]

http://www.thepaleodiet.com/articles/Milk%20Final.pdf

Keep researching on the insulin index.

[xxghostxx]

I dont care, nor believe what either of you are saying..because, I cannot find a single bit of info on or about or by Alan Aragorn...In addition, I found no journals or articles stating a study was done and proved to show milk spiked insulin levels. ANd the article By mendosa...who is he to say anything? Hes a web writer, not a scientist. And also, that article he wrote didnt say anything on the subject. Milk wasnt even listed on his table. and The article/study he quotes, I just looked it up and it didnt say anything regarding milk and insulin spikes either.

I found a couple here and there that normal people question or head about dairy may cause a larger increase in insulin levels even though it has a low GI, but there is no evidence, they were statements from other boards/members.


Your telling me milk should not be drinken before bed? Its not beneficial. I think most on this board will agree milk is awesome. regardless. anything under 55 is considered low, whole milk at 27, you cannot compare that with a peice of sugary candy or white rice at over 70+ - 98 on the GI..milk is superior by far.

In conclusion, this is coming from someone who posted MMM milk...
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=441008

and...I just found out alan is just a member here. He has a thread about how much he loves milk pre/post workout..etc
(even if we're talking about before bed, doesnt matter)

haha you need to calm down. I was only supporting rockstars post with some data in support of dairy as having insulinogenic properties. The fact that it's presented on Mendosa's site doesn't credit him as an authority. I was refering you to the table he had posted in that link, which was extracted from:"An Insulin Index of Foods: The Insulin Demand Generated by 1000-kJ Portions of Common Foods" in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 1997, Vol. 66: pages 1264-1276 by Susanne HA Holt, Janette C. Brand Miller, and Peter Petocz." And I realize it didn't post the insulin properties of milk, but rockstar also mentioned yogurt, which WAS covered. To my understanding, it's believed that the amino profile is said to be what increases the insulin response to milk. This is also true of whey which also can induce an insulin response,but to what degree does this response occur? Probably slightly above baseline insulin concentrations in normal people. I never said insulin before bed is necessarily a bad thing either. In fact, I think most people skip it because they fear insulin release before bed, as if it definitely equates to triglyceride storage. Me personally, I drink milk before bed a few nights a week, it puts me at ease. Rockstars comments were mainly in lieu of an blunt in GH output during the sleep cycles. To what effect this has on you, I can't say, but I haven't seen a drastic downturn from it personally, and know lots of individuals who feel the same (apparently you are one of them). I think the real thing to keep in mind and worry about, is if having something before bed is effecting the quality of sleep. If it is, well you should know what to do. So don't come bringing me into this because you feel I wronged you by supporting rockstar with some data. You can clearly see, especially by that thread link you dug up, that I support milk....

[Clive Jones]

Ha Ha

Im calm. I just was typing fast and thinking fast so It came off like Im mad. Its cool man. no grudges..as long as we're on the same page here. Milk is awesome. case closed.

[rockstarsar]

I am lactose intolerant, but even if I wasn't, crossly challenging someone to drink milk before bed in response to: "No, actually, milk does rank high on the insulin index. And an insulin spike will blunt the release of growth hormone." is uncalled for. You said milk was low GI, which meant it would not cause a large insulin secretion. I just pointed out that in fact, milk is very insulinogenic. Yeah, I should have clarified my point on insulin spikes blunting growth hormone - I did not say that the insulin release stimulated by milk itself would blunt GH. I meant it as a general blanket statement.

[desire4dumbells]

i dont eat cottage cheese ok, so would milk be better then nothing? AS the casein i feel would be beneficial. and i just want to hold off the catabolic state........!

[Steve_W]

I am lactose intolerant, but even if I wasn't, crossly challenging someone to drink milk before bed in response to: "No, actually, milk does rank high on the insulin index. And an insulin spike will blunt the release of growth hormone." is uncalled for. You said milk was low GI, which meant it would not cause a large insulin secretion. I just pointed out that in fact, milk is very insulinogenic. Yeah, I should have clarified my point on insulin spikes blunting growth hormone - I did not say that the insulin release stimulated by milk itself would blunt GH. I meant it as a general blanket statement.

Eating any macro can blunt hGH release, not just carbs.

[grndmstrflsch]

i dont eat cottage cheese ok, so would milk be better then nothing? AS the casein i feel would be beneficial. and i just want to hold off the catabolic state........!

yeah definetly

[creed428]

so if I have my PWO meal (whey protein in water) right after I workout, what is the earliest I can have my pre-bed meal (.5c CC, 1.5c Milk, 1 scoop whey, 1 TBSPN PB)

i would say get rid of the scoop of whey and instead have a whole cup of CC you could take this 30 min after you pwo meal just take it right before bed so if your not going to bed for an hour after your workout then dont take it until your ready for sleep

[teen8ger]

Uhmmmmmmmmmmm?

Milk before bed is absolutely fine. Hell, I drink 3-4 glasses directly before bed sometimes...
Milk is actually considered low on the GI index, therefore not causing a spike in insulin levels, something such as candy with high sugar would do that. Get your facts right.
Milk is casein which is slow digesting which is fantastic while your sleeping for 7 hours...
most bodybuilders see great results from cottage cheese? LOL where did that come from...I agree it is beneficial for protein source...i just dont know LOL "IT WORKS"

Nothing personal man.

Telling me to get my facts right is a childish thing to say when you dont even know who I am and you dont have your facts straight.

"Milk before bed is absolutely fine."
get your facts straight, but you wont be able to, because you are more concerned about clinging on to OLD ideas and OLD ways of thinking such as looking at LOL Gi-index to determine INSULIN spikes.

And if you DONT know how cottage cheese "WORKS" then that just shows YOUR LACK of intelligence/knowledge regarding cottage cheese.

You havent even given one single proof about how milk is good BEFORE bed, and you say its 'absolutely fine' ... you seem more interested in jamming YOUR ideas on this forum instead of posting FACTS and helping other people get QUALITY RESULTS that will last a lifetime.

"Milk before bed is absolutely fine. Hell, I drink 3-4 glasses directly before bed sometimes..."
So milk is ABOSLUTELY FINE just because YOU drink 3-4 glasses prior to sleeping SOMETIMES...??
GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT.

Also, it seems like you dont UNDERSTAND much of what is going on, that could also be the reason why you lack knowledge.
You hide behind 'science' saying there are no scientific studies and blah blah blah while knowing nothing about science yourself.

Milk is fine (for me and my stomach). I drink milk everyday. I dont drink it before bed. I eat cottage cheese.

"At this point, you might be asking yourself why I simply don't recommend milk. Well, I'm hesitate to suggest milk as a result of the recent data showing that unfermented, intact milk (skim or whole) may not be all that great for you. The high incidence of milk allergies and lactose intolerance coupled with a huge insulin index makes me hesitant to give my endorsement to the moo juice. However, milk products like cottage cheese behave differently than milk and are another solid choice."
http://johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/bedtime.htm

[Eric75]

...but since this thread starter is talking about PWO, then milk is good, right? even though it's a little before bed? isn't getting that PWO insulin spike (for protein absorbtion) more important that the fact that the milk is before bed?

[Clive Jones]

Telling me to get my facts right is a childish thing to say when you dont even know who I am and you dont have your facts straight.

"Milk before bed is absolutely fine."
get your facts straight, but you wont be able to, because you are more concerned about clinging on to OLD ideas and OLD ways of thinking such as looking at LOL Gi-index to determine INSULIN spikes.

And if you DONT know how cottage cheese "WORKS" then that just shows YOUR LACK of intelligence/knowledge regarding cottage cheese.

You havent even given one single proof about how milk is good BEFORE bed, and you say its 'absolutely fine' ... you seem more interested in jamming YOUR ideas on this forum instead of posting FACTS and helping other people get QUALITY RESULTS that will last a lifetime.

"Milk before bed is absolutely fine. Hell, I drink 3-4 glasses directly before bed sometimes..."
So milk is ABOSLUTELY FINE just because YOU drink 3-4 glasses prior to sleeping SOMETIMES...??
GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT.

Also, it seems like you dont UNDERSTAND much of what is going on, that could also be the reason why you lack knowledge.
You hide behind 'science' saying there are no scientific studies and blah blah blah while knowing nothing about science yourself.

Milk is fine (for me and my stomach). I drink milk everyday. I dont drink it before bed. I eat cottage cheese.

"At this point, you might be asking yourself why I simply don't recommend milk. Well, I'm hesitate to suggest milk as a result of the recent data showing that unfermented, intact milk (skim or whole) may not be all that great for you. The high incidence of milk allergies and lactose intolerance coupled with a huge insulin index makes me hesitant to give my endorsement to the moo juice. However, milk products like cottage cheese behave differently than milk and are another solid choice."
http://johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/bedtime.htm

I didnt think it was childish, because. the way you stated it, it seems as if milk is a bad idea. PLus, your basically pushing cottage cheese and saying it WORKS, but nothing else will. You did not clarify, nor give any detail as to why or how.

Milk is fine. yes I drink a lot of it and I havent seen any significant fat increases from this amazing insulin spike you speak of. Im not focusing on old information, perhaps the information is just correct. It is "considered" low on the Gi index, yet dairy MAY increase insulin levels, but there is no proof.

There was a poll done on this board I believe on whether or not we all drink milk and the majority, 90% said all the time, they live off of it...etc

I lack knowledge? LOL, far from it. I suppose we all agree that milk is good. but to say it isnt beneficial before bed doesnt make sense. You want proof on why milk is good...there are many reasons..

. I am still searching for articles relating milk and insulin spikes, but i cant seem to find any? casein protein digests slow and is slowly absorbed which is a good thing.

dont take it personal man. Give me some data on why cottage cheese WORKS and is so great. I agree, it is very beneficial before bed or at anytime of the day, great protein source...etc
obviously bodybuilders have also been using it for a long time because its been around for hundreds of years...

I know nothing of science? im an exercise science major and study science all the time
If it werent for 'science', then you wouldnt have all those great benefits from bodybuilding and nutrition. Im hiding behind 'science', its just the way it is. The proof is in the science behind things. So I guess I can say, I dont believe it until I see research evidence because I guess this just my opinion. BUT, personal experience because Im continuing to lose body fat while drinking all that milk prior to bed. hmm, go figure. evern though every1 is different, I still havent heard or spoken to anyone saying they are getting too fat from milk and have to cut down due to the spikes during sleep and leaving it in the form of storage fat.

[Jules Verne]

IMO you want carbs PWO, even if you work out just before bed and even if that does blunt GH release.

Since you have limited time I'd go with dex+whey immediately after the workout, or say 30 mins before the end. Then go with the casein (in some form, I prefer cottage cheese) with some more slow digesting carbs (e.g. oats or yam) 30 mins after the dex+whey. Since this is the last meal before bed I'd also consider adding some fat to slow absorption.

If I had to choose between the two (e.g. you are totally anti dex), I'd go with the cottage cheese + low GI carbs.