Fat/Protein/Carbs, ALL in one meal?

[Adam444]

I was talking to a BB'er (He is/was a pro) and he was talking about how you should eat all 3 at the same time.

I gave him my diet and he kept asking, where is the fat? where is the carbs? where is the fat? you know, there was always something missing. He then told me that I need to get all 3 at the same time, with EVERY meal, 3-4 hours, and I have a choice to skip fat after post-work out.

This guy is probably one, if not the strongest dude in our gym, he IS dedicated, comes with his buddies every day, so I have faith in his words. I'll see how it works...

Also, he has told me that stop counting calories and just start counting grams, it's easier, less hassle...

What do you guys think about this?

[saw14]

i think for the most part most of the people on the forum include all three macronutrients in every meal. this is something that is brought up all the time and was talked about as recently as yesterday.

also you want to avoid fats pwo so you can get the protein and carbs into your system faster.

[thajeepster]

sounds like your buddy is giving yougood advice... i have fats/carbs/protein every meal except pwo.

[~SC~]

To each his own.

~SC~

[Andrew69]

Originally Posted by ~SC~

To each his own.

~SC~

You disagree SC?
May I ask why?

[HUGE_I_AM]

eating all together is ok, as long as your macros are in line... but its best to eat more of your carbs in morning/around your workout

[HydroStorm]

eating all three in one meal works and it's balanced. fiber is also good to include. something like this would be natural peanut butter on whole wheat bread.

[RipStone]

The dude at your gym is giving you great advice. I tried to eat p+f, p+c meal combos for about 6 months. It was a waste of time. I didnt make any gains and felt crappy at night cus I was only eat p+f meals. I also found it hard to eat a lot of calories this way.

Eating balanced meals(except PWO where you want to avoid fat) is the way to go. I have managed to gain a lot of LBM eating this way and feel so much better.

[bkman4]

For most it's more about calories than ratios. When I'm bulking I tend to eat less fat with my carbs because I'm eating so much carbs in my midday meals. I don't think it's wise to try to cause storage, lol.

[Sixpack]

Yep Rip and I are very similar in what we went through we both learned our lesson

Originally Posted by RipStone

The dude at your gym is giving you great advice. I tried to eat p+f, p+c meal combos for about 6 months. It was a waste of time. I didnt make any gains and felt crappy at night cus I was only eat p+f meals. I also found it hard to eat a lot of calories this way.

Eating balanced meals(except PWO where you want to avoid fat) is the way to go. I have managed to gain a lot of LBM eating this way and feel so much better.

[xxghostxx]

Originally Posted by bkman4

I don't think it's wise to try to cause storage, lol.

Seperating the fat out from the carbohydrate doesn't magically whisp away your ability to gain fat.

[bkman4]

Originally Posted by xxghostxx

Seperating the fat out from the carbohydrate doesn't magically whisp away your ability to gain fat.

Very true. But when you are eating an amount of calories from carbs that will cause so much insulin to release that it almost causes storage...it makes little sense to TRY and elevate trygliceride levels during this.

Insulin and tryglicerides don't mix.

[xxghostxx]

Originally Posted by bkman4

Very true. But when you are eating an amount of calories from carbs that will cause so much insulin to release that it almost causes storage...it makes little sense to TRY and elevate trygliceride levels during this.

Insulin and tryglicerides don't mix.

The amount of insulin released from protein alone can active fat storage my friend. Fat can even be stored in an insulin independent manner thanks to ASP.

[bkman4]

Originally Posted by xxghostxx

The amount of insulin released from protein alone can active fat storage my friend. Fat can even be stored in an insulin independent manner thanks to ASP.

Sure. But there is no need to push your luck. Fat is assimilated easier because of it's tendency to be less fiberous.

[Steve_W]

Originally Posted by bkman4

Sure. But there is no need to push your luck. Fat is assimilated easier because of it's tendency to be less fiberous.

Ummm, are you tripping?

[bkman4]

Not one bit, lately. I'm not going to go John Berardi on ya, but there is a bit to the thermic effect of eating. Your digestive system requires more blood and more muscle activity to digest fiberous veggies or complex carbs. Fat, in the form of oils doesnt'. That's why it's not a simple as calories in vs. calories out. If it was that simple you could just eat fat and sugar.

[tongueincheeeck]

I havent read a post from Alan delving into this logic... Has he elaborated on thos topic before? if so someone whos read it get it and post it in here, if not, someone get him in here

I have to say right now, I am quite torn between the two... I understand that balanced meals are the way to go, but right now I am cutting... As bkman said, when im bulking ill be eating ~40g protien, and up to 90g carbs in quite a few meals, so am VERY hesitant to wack 10-15g of fat into that equation... HOWEVER, am I being irrational? Possible, but all I can say is that from a completely UNscientific point of view it DOES make sense... But how many times have we been shown you just cant over simplify things like these...

ALAN! ALAN!!!!!!!!!!!! [like calling superman]

[brake]

i started out counting calories then got sick of and just started counting grams, bulking of course. i wouldnt recommed it though, cuz i know most days i over ate. i just ate 250 - 300 g protein a day and around 400g carbs. i did count calories in my head as i went along (just to make sure i was eating enough) worked great for me.

[xxghostxx]

Originally Posted by teamramrod

Originally posted by TeamRamrod
Combining carbs and fats is NEVER fine. This is why: Besides insulin's main purpose, which is to shuttle glucose into skeletal muscle, it also carries other nutrients to their storage sites. An example is fats. Eating carbs stimulates large insulin secretions while fat consumption raises blood fat(lipid) levels. The combination of these two is major fat storage.

Originally Posted by Alan Aragon

~TR



TR, bear with me on this, because i'm about to explain why you are oversimplifying this issue, and why you are largely incorrect. feel free to question my logic & science if i ain't makin it across the great divide here.

the answer to this issue is contingent upon specific conditions. to blanketly say that you should always separate carb from fat intake makes you sound like suzanne somers, ripe & ready to somersize your way to slimmer hips & thighs. heh, jus playin playa, but hopefully you'll see what i mean.

let's look at the conditions here, and gain a better understanding of the critical factors.

condition #1 - negative energy balance:

you can combine oprah's lard with sugar, and even throw in your dad's sweat socks for fiber all day long, and you will not gain bodyfat if you're in the midst of a calorie deficit. to be fair (especially since we're being somewhat theoretical here) there's actually a snowflakes chance in hell that you can gain bodyfat in an energy deficit if you can someway induce rapid loss of body protein, by perhaps consuming as little protein as possible and as much fat as possible while maintaining that hypocaloric state.. but that scenario is far fetched, to say the least. bottom line is that it rarely - if ever - matters to any real-world degree whether or not you combine carbs & fat in a hypocaloric state.

condition #2 - positive energy balance:

let's say you don't realize it, but you're about to consume 500 more calories for the day than you'll actually burn. this scenario has a little more complexity, so step through it slowly.. if that meal is 100% carbs, depending upon the carb, you will generate varying magnitudes of insulin at varying rates. the greater the surge, the greater potential for fat storage. BUT, imposed demand (type of training, type of stress vectors, recuperation intervals) will determine whether that caloric surplus of carb will be partitioned towards muscle glycogen or converted to triacylglycerol for adipose storage, so again, it depends upon your training state.. now, if that 500kcal was 100% fat, unsaturated fats will be easily dissembled for hormone, myelin, & eye/brain tissue maintenance. and of course a certain amount - but not all of it - will be shuttled into the adipose & intramuscular space. on the other hand, saturated fats (less reactive & more kinetically stable due to a lack of fragile double bonding rendering them resistant to chemical reassembly into other compounds) will in fact be preferentially partitioned towards adipose storage.......... take a deep breath............ now for the kicker. let's say this 500kcal is an even 50/50 combination of carbs & fat (i'm being very liberal here; fat proportion of purposely mixed meals is usually much lower). first off, whether or not the fat is saturated, the insulin potential of the carbs will blunted through at least 3 mechanisms: gastric emptying delay from the fat, absorption competition with the fat within the small intestine, and a potential 3rd mechanism where less insulin will be required for glucose disposal due to a heightened cellular receptivity/sensitivity created by chronic intake of omega-3 fatty acids. due to the presence of fat during digestion & absorption, that insulin response from the carbs gets significantly suppressed. this is BY FAR a better scenario than the previous 2, especially if the fats are for the most part unsaturated, and the carbs have a low insulinemic/glycemic profile --- much like slow cooked oats + peanutbutter.

um what was that about fat ingestion raising blood fats? depends upon the fat. some fats are highly conducive to net thermogenesis, and cannot be typcasted in the classical view, but that's another lecture. forget about acute conditions, let's look at chonic ones. under many conditions, carbs can hike up blood triacylglycerols, and keep them up in the resting state. one way to combat this: have some unsaturated fat with your carbs, and stop trying to somersize, lol.

in all fairness, i haven't personally read berardi's philosophy on never eating carbs & fats together, and i may be missing some contingencies of his stance on this --- but if he in fact put it in a blanket way like you did --- berardi is wrong.

A little something from Lyle McDonald on the same issue:
http://forum.avantlabs.com/index.php?act=ST&f=4&t=4605

"I am talking only about macronutrients.

The whole don't eat protein + fat or don't eat carbs + whatever is a bunch of bull**** within this context (the usual argument, and the original question, had to do with separating it out across meals and fat gain).

the whole reasoning behind don't eat carbs + fat is based on a simplistic and outmoded model of fat cell metabolism.

The basic reasoning, that you gave was, insulin = storage hormone + dietary fat = bodyfat

Problems
1. It takes only tiny amounts of insulin to affect fat cell metabolism
2. Protein more than sufficiently raises insulin this much so protein + fat works just as well to both inhibit fat cell mobilization and stimulate storage of nutrients.
3. Insulin is important to increase LPL activity. Lpl was thought to be rate limiting for fat storage but this is not the case. All LPL does is release fatty acids from chylomicrons.
4. Acylation stimulation protein (ASP) is the real player in triglyceride synthesis in the fat cell. It is stimulated by the mere presence of chylomicrons in the bloodstream and is insulin indepdendent. So whether you eat your fat with carbs protein or by itself, the dietary fat is going to get stored. Separating it out from carbs isn't going to make a ****'s worth of difference.

Whether you end up gaining or losing fat will depend on 24 hour fat balance (oxidation - intake) which will essentially be 24 hour calorie balance.

Of course, food combining nonsense will keep you leaner in the sense that, by setting up rules that only allow you to eat fat at every other meal, you'll probably end up eating less fat total over the day..."


And if you need any more clarification, google " lyle mcdonald acylation stimulation protein" you'll get some interesting reads out of that.

[xenithon]

I know I may get shot down but I have been separating for a long time, before berardi even came into the picture. It has worked well in helping me maintain leanness. I am fairly endomorphic so need to watch quite closely to stay lean.

That being said however I think once again, moderation is key. If I am having some chicken and some oats, I have no problem with the fat in oats, some olive oil for the chicken etc. However I will not go out of my way to add fats eg. adding two large tablespoons of PB to the oats. I would rather get the same amount of calories by having more protein or carbs, and in another meal with fewer carbs eg. massive salad or grilled vegetables I add in olive oil, mixed nuts etc.

[tongueincheeeck]

Originally Posted by xenithon

I know I may get shot down but I have been separating for a long time, before berardi even came into the picture. It has worked well in helping me maintain leanness. I am fairly endomorphic so need to watch quite closely to stay lean.

But this is the problem, when you say that you justify your leaness as a result of this seperation, when infact from a scientificatly based point of view (as we have just seen above), you have maintined your leaness from watching what you eat in regard to your energy in, and energy out, macronutrient breakdown, and timing of your foods...

[T-mag]

I understand how you have all that scientific evidence backing it up and stuff, but from my personal experience, following Berardi's p+f, p+c meal combinations has help me lose fat and maintain/build LBM quite effortlessly. I think its just about finding a particular eating plan that works well with your own body. JUUST my thoughts!

[alan aragon]

hello gang. ghost, i don't mind at all, thanks for digging that up.

here's some science on how food separation was actually observed to be slightly inferior in terms of fat loss and blood pressure [Golay A, et al. Similar weight loss with low-energy food combining or balanced diets. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2000 Apr;24(4):492-6]:

OBJECTIVE: The goal of this study was to evaluate the effect of two diets (dissociated vs balanced) on body weight and metabolic parameters during a 6-week period in an in-hospital setting.

SUBJECTS AND DESIGN: 54 obese patients were randomly assigned to receive diets containing 4.5 MJ/day (1100 kcal/day) composed of either 25% protein, 47% carbohydrates and 25% lipids (dissociated diet) or 25% protein, 42% carbohydrates and 31% lipids (balanced diet). Consequently, the two diets were equally low in energy and substrate content (protein, fat and carbohydrate) but widely differed in substrate distribution throughout the day.

RESULTS: Although not statistically significant, the balanced diet caused more weight loss than the dissociated diet (7.5 kg) versus (6.2 kg). Significant decreases in total body fat and waist-to-hip circumference ratio were seen in both groups, and the magnitude of the changes did not vary as a function of the diet composition. Fasting plasma glucose, insulin, total cholesterol and triacylglycerol concentrations decreased significantly and similarly in patients receiving both diets. Both systolic and diastolic blood pressure values decreased significantly only in patients eating balanced diets. The results of this study show that both diets achieved similar weight loss. Total fat weight loss was higher in balanced diets, although differences did not reach statistical significance. Total lean body mass was identically spared in both groups.

[RipStone]

Originally Posted by alan aragon

hello gang. ghost, i don't mind at all, thanks for digging that up.

here's some science on how food separation was actually observed to be slightly inferior in terms of fat loss and blood pressure [Golay A, et al. Similar weight loss with low-energy food combining or balanced diets. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2000 Apr;24(4):492-6]:

OBJECTIVE: The goal of this study was to evaluate the effect of two diets (dissociated vs balanced) on body weight and metabolic parameters during a 6-week period in an in-hospital setting.

SUBJECTS AND DESIGN: 54 obese patients were randomly assigned to receive diets containing 4.5 MJ/day (1100 kcal/day) composed of either 25% protein, 47% carbohydrates and 25% lipids (dissociated diet) or 25% protein, 42% carbohydrates and 31% lipids (balanced diet). Consequently, the two diets were equally low in energy and substrate content (protein, fat and carbohydrate) but widely differed in substrate distribution throughout the day.

RESULTS: Although not statistically significant, the balanced diet caused more weight loss than the dissociated diet (7.5 kg) versus (6.2 kg). Significant decreases in total body fat and waist-to-hip circumference ratio were seen in both groups, and the magnitude of the changes did not vary as a function of the diet composition. Fasting plasma glucose, insulin, total cholesterol and triacylglycerol concentrations decreased significantly and similarly in patients receiving both diets. Both systolic and diastolic blood pressure values decreased significantly only in patients eating balanced diets. The results of this study show that both diets achieved similar weight loss. Total fat weight loss was higher in balanced diets, although differences did not reach statistical significance. Total lean body mass was identically spared in both groups.

Very intersting study Alan. I would be curios to see a similar study done on people who are in good shape or people trying to add LBM.