Does ZMA work well for all of you?

[zxcager]

Well, I just gotten the ON ZMA. I read from you folks here that it's good for sleep and raises test level or something.

I don't have much of a sleep problem right now so I'm taking more for the other *advantage*.

The 1st time I popped it I woke up with a major headache in the morning. I just didn't know why cos I didn't drink milk or anything. It was bad, the whole day I walked around with a heavy head.

So I took again last night. I didn't have a headache this time but I still woke up with a heavy head and not feeling refreshed or anything.

So it looks like the whole bottle of 178 caps is gonna sit forever in the fridge now.

[chlaxman]

i've gotten a deeper sleep and vivid dreams from ZMA, but never anything else.

[NonCon]

i've gotten a deeper sleep and vivid dreams from ZMA, but never anything else.

Deeper sleep and vivid dreams is a contradiction in terms. When you have vivid dreams you are not in the the deepest sleep state.

Any "effect" from ZMA is purely imagined -- unless you are malnourished to the extent of someone living in a third world country.


(It's statements like this that made me go from having thousands of rep points to an all red rating. People hate to feel they've been wrong. But the truth is the truth).

[EME]

I respect NonCon's personal opinion, but I strongly disagree.

I have seen very noticeable effects on my sleep AND dreaming when using ZMA.

I have used ZMA for many years to aid in sleep, mainly because I am a very light sleeper and tend to wake up many times during the night.

I have been training and using supplements for more than 20 years, and I know the difference between a placebo effect, and actual results. I definitely experience real results from the use of ZMA nightly.

When using ZMA I do have noticeably more vivid dreams, AND I do get better sleep and wake up less frequently.

I definitely feel more rested when I wake up after using it.

I have seen no noticeable testosterone raising effect from using ZMA. However, that isn't why I use it, so I don't mind.

The relatively small cost of this supplement is definitely worth the results for me.

If you are using it to get prohormone like strength or size gains, you will most likely be dissapointed. If you are using it as an aid for better sleep, it may be a good supplement for you.

- EME

www.MichaelElias.com

[secondsight]

I use ZMASS PM (Cytodyne's ZMA product) and I like it very much. I usually take it during PCT and anytime when I'm off cycle. I find it does help in keeping my strength up. It definitely gives me deep sleep. As for vivid dreams? Not really. Though when I took Cold Fusion PM which contains 5HTP I had vivid dreams.

[rgkstl]

Deeper sleep and vivid dreams is a contradiction in terms. When you have vivid dreams you are not in the the deepest sleep state.

Any "effect" from ZMA is purely imagined -- unless you are malnourished to the extent of someone living in a third world country.


(It's statements like this that made me go from having thousands of rep points to an all red rating. People hate to feel they've been wrong. But the truth is the truth).

Without throwing internet punches, you are very wrong.

[VXX]

Deeper sleep and vivid dreams is a contradiction in terms. When you have vivid dreams you are not in the the deepest sleep state.

Any "effect" from ZMA is purely imagined -- unless you are malnourished to the extent of someone living in a third world country.


(It's statements like this that made me go from having thousands of rep points to an all red rating. People hate to feel they've been wrong. But the truth is the truth).

are you retarded? Dreams occur during RM sleep, they are present due to REM (rapid eye movement). Vivid dreams can occur any time when your body fully enters into RM mode and after that, vivid dreams happen when the right side of the brain takes over when you sleep. They are most likely to occur during the last few hours before you awake.

ZMA does work and if you did research you would find numerous studies have shown it effectivly combats fat storage and increases the effectiveness of natural melatonin release within the body. Melatonin puts you to sleep.

[CrazyTall]

ZMA = Luv it!

[Flagg3]

Deeper sleep and vivid dreams is a contradiction in terms. When you have vivid dreams you are not in the the deepest sleep state.

Any "effect" from ZMA is purely imagined -- unless you are malnourished to the extent of someone living in a third world country.


(It's statements like this that made me go from having thousands of rep points to an all red rating. People hate to feel they've been wrong. But the truth is the truth).

The truth is that you don't know what your talking about, and that's why your in the red.

Just because ZMA doesn't work for you doesn't mean it doesn't work for anyone. If you are a person who has no trouble moving quickly into sleep stages 3 and 4 then you most likely won't see any benefit from ZMA. But for people who are considered 'light sleepers', they very rarely can get into the deeper stages of sleep and spend most of the night in sleep stages 1 and 2. Symptoms of this are people who wake up at the drop of a hat, and a feeling of extreme physical or mental pain from lack of sleep. People who hit the snooze bar constantly usually fit into this category as well.

Vivid dreams occur in REM sleep, which is a completely separate category of sleep from the 4 other stages, but it occurs after stage 4 so it is sometimes referred to as 'Stage 5' sleep. While REM sleep in and of itself does not necessarily represent a deep, restful stage of sleep, experiencing more REM sleep indicates that you are cycling through the deeper stages of sleep because REM sleep will gradually replace the delta wave (deep) stages of sleep throughout the night, eventually replacing all other stages entirely. (Which is why when you can fall immediately into dreaming when you hit the snooze button and only sleep for a couple of minutes in the morning. This can't happen when you first fall asleep at night.)

Most people require about 2 hours of delta wave sleep (stages 3 and 4) per night. These are the stages when the brain starts to produce delta waves and these are the stages when our body repairs itself. If you are a light sleeper then you will rarely progress past stage 2 or 3 sleep and will wake up feeling weak, tired and generally lethargic, because you did not get enough delta wave sleep. Once your body gets enough delta wave sleep your sleep becomes almost entirely REM sleep, which is why experiencing more dreaming is an indication of more restful sleep.

The majority of people who suffer from this problem usually have some degree of zinc or magnesium deficiency, which is why ZMA can benefit them. You don't have to be from a third world country to experience vitamin deficiencies. Many, many factors can cause a vitamin deficiency. (High levels of kryptopyrroles in the body can bind to Vitamin B6 and zinc, preventing absorption. High carb diets, stress, calcium and even excess sweating can cause a zinc deficiency. etc.) Additionally, multivitamins are usually a poor source of Zinc and Magnesium because Zinc and Magnesium don't absorb well when take with other vitamins. That's why if you have a deficiency it is important to supplement them separately.

In my personal experience the results were dramatic and immediate. I have suffered from sleep problems my whole life, and would usually wake up feeling like death, even after sleeping for 12 hours or more. The first day I started Magnesium/Zinc supplementation I felt like a new man.

Whereas I used to wake up at the sound of anything I can now sleep through an earthquake. I sincerely doubt that any placebo effect could cause that.

Flagg

[CrazyTall]

Great post. Very repworthy.

[secondsight]

The truth is that you don't know what your talking about, and that's why your in the red.

Just because ZMA doesn't work for you doesn't mean it doesn't work for anyone. If you are a person who has no trouble moving quickly into sleep stages 3 and 4 then you most likely won't see any benefit from ZMA. But for people who are considered 'light sleepers', they very rarely can get into the deeper stages of sleep and spend most of the night in sleep stages 1 and 2. Symptoms of this are people who wake up at the drop of a hat, and a feeling of extreme physical or mental pain from lack of sleep. People who hit the snooze bar constantly usually fit into this category as well.

Vivid dreams occur in REM sleep, which is a completely separate category of sleep from the 4 other stages, but it occurs after stage 4 so it is sometimes referred to as 'Stage 5' sleep. While REM sleep in and of itself does not necessarily represent a deep, restful stage of sleep, experiencing more REM sleep indicates that you are cycling through the deeper stages of sleep because REM sleep will gradually replace the delta wave (deep) stages of sleep throughout the night, eventually replacing all other stages entirely. (Which is why when you can fall immediately into dreaming when you hit the snooze button and only sleep for a couple of minutes in the morning. This can't happen when you first fall asleep at night.)

Most people require about 2 hours of delta wave sleep (stages 3 and 4) per night. These are the stages when the brain starts to produce delta waves and these are the stages when our body repairs itself. If you are a light sleeper then you will rarely progress past stage 2 or 3 sleep and will wake up feeling weak, tired and generally lethargic, because you did not get enough delta wave sleep. Once your body gets enough delta wave sleep your sleep becomes almost entirely REM sleep, which is why experiencing more dreaming is an indication of more restful sleep.

The majority of people who suffer from this problem usually have some degree of zinc or magnesium deficiency, which is why ZMA can benefit them. You don't have to be from a third world country to experience vitamin deficiencies. Many, many factors can cause a vitamin deficiency. (High levels of kryptopyrroles in the body can bind to Vitamin B6 and zinc, preventing absorption. High carb diets, stress, calcium and even excess sweating can cause a zinc deficiency. etc.) Additionally, multivitamins are usually a poor source of Zinc and Magnesium because Zinc and Magnesium don't absorb well when take with other vitamins. That's why if you have a deficiency it is important to supplement them separately.

In my personal experience the results were dramatic and immediate. I have suffered from sleep problems my whole life, and would usually wake up feeling like death, even after sleeping for 12 hours or more. The first day I started Magnesium/Zinc supplementation I felt like a new man.

Whereas I used to wake up at the sound of anything I can now sleep through an earthquake. I sincerely doubt that any placebo effect could cause that.

Flagg

Good post and information.

[Iron___Stoner]

When using ZMA I do have noticeably more vivid dreams, AND I do get better sleep and wake up less frequently.

I definitely feel more rested when I wake up after using it.

ditto

[NonCon]

To Flagg and VXX You're contradicting yourselves. (And don't even realize it, which is quite funny).

First of all, the dream state when experiencing REM are not vivid dreams.
In fact they are the dreams that are rarely remembered. The dreams that are remembered occur during a less deep alpha state, i.e. when you're close to being awake, and NOT in a restful state. And as Flagg mentioned, the deepest sleep is in the delta state. That's when you're in a "dead" sleep which is dreamless.

But, whatever. Dream on.

[Flagg3]

To Flagg and VXX You're contradicting yourselves. (And don't even realize it, which is quite funny).

First of all, the dream state when experiencing REM are not vivid dreams.
In fact they are the dreams that are rarely remembered. The dreams that are remembered occur during a less deep alpha state, i.e. when you're close to being awake, and NOT in a restful state. And as Flagg mentioned, the deepest sleep is in the delta state. That's when you're in a "dead" sleep which is dreamless.

But, whatever. Dream on.

Wrong.

http://web.umr.edu/~psyworld/sleep_stages.htm

"Most importantly to psychologists, this (REM) is the stage of sleep most associated with dreaming. When a sleeper in a research lab begins to exhibit the physiological indices of R.E.M sleep, and they are awakened, the great majority of the time they will report that they were having a vivid, story-like, dream. During other stages, on the other hand, they normally do not report dreaming. "

Interestingly enough, it was not until 1953, that Dement and Kleitman discovered that the fact that this unique stage of sleep was associated with dreaming. This was very exciting and profound to the researchers, since dreams were so important a subject in the study of psychology. Dement describes it as follows:

The vivid recall that could be elicited in the middle of the night when a subject was awakened while his eyes were moving rapidly was nothing short of miraculous. It [seemed to open] … an exciting new world to the subjects whose only previous dream memories had been the vague morning-after recall. Now, instead of perhaps some fleeting glimpse into the dream world each night, the subjects could be tuned into the middle of as many as ten or twelve dreams every night.

(Dement, 1978, p. 37; quoted in Pinel, 1993)"



Do you just make things up as you go along?

Flagg

[solarize]

I only take ZMA on workout evenings, but yeah, I find it beneficial. I dont really have issues getting to sleep normally, but it helps a little. What I do find is I am more rested in the morning. Also, I tend to be more sexually excited when taking ZMA, which is probably a good indication of some sort of testosterone stimulation.

Solar.

[deserusan]

I take Dymatize Z-Force and love it. It also has tribulus and few other beneficial ingredients. I was taking Optimums ZMA and Trib and decided to switch to Dymatize just to cut down on the number of pills I was taking.

[norishinghgh]

Does ZMA also make you feel like optomistic and like energized?? (All i know is that it makes people feel refreshed in the morning )

Would it be advisable to make ur own ZMA or just use the real ZMA formula?

[NonCon]

Wrong.

http://web.umr.edu/~psyworld/sleep_stages.htm

"Most importantly to psychologists, this (REM) is the stage of sleep most associated with dreaming. When a sleeper in a research lab begins to exhibit the physiological indices of R.E.M sleep, and they are awakened, the great majority of the time they will report that they were having a vivid, story-like, dream. During other stages, on the other hand, they normally do not report dreaming. "

Interestingly enough, it was not until 1953, that Dement and Kleitman discovered that the fact that this unique stage of sleep was associated with dreaming. This was very exciting and profound to the researchers, since dreams were so important a subject in the study of psychology. Dement describes it as follows:

The vivid recall that could be elicited in the middle of the night when a subject was awakened while his eyes were moving rapidly was nothing short of miraculous. It [seemed to open] … an exciting new world to the subjects whose only previous dream memories had been the vague morning-after recall. Now, instead of perhaps some fleeting glimpse into the dream world each night, the subjects could be tuned into the middle of as many as ten or twelve dreams every night.

(Dement, 1978, p. 37; quoted in Pinel, 1993)"



Do you just make things up as you go along?

Flagg

Ah, yes, another genius who loves to prove how smart he is by cutting and pasting. Maybe you should try reading it. It says they recalled vivid dreams when they were AWAKENED!!!

Thank you for proving my point.

[icey]

I like it alot

Stallone's product is the best one I've tried, but it's extremley expensive.

I have gotten good muscle hardness from it that I have not experienced with other companies' ZMA.

Dymatize also makes a good ZMA, and EAS used to make a good one but they discontinued it.

Also check out Chuck Diesel's new natural test booster, I haven't tried it yet, but CHuck's products always freakin rock.

[NonCon]

I like it alot

Stallone's product is the best one I've tried, but it's extremley expensive.

I have gotten good muscle hardness from it that I have not experienced with other companies' ZMA.

Dymatize also makes a good ZMA, and EAS used to make a good one but they discontinued it.

Also check out Chuck Diesel's new natural test booster, I haven't tried it yet, but CHuck's products always freakin rock.

So Stalones special ZMA has properties that make it superior? More muscle hardness you say?


Geezusfreakinchryss. Give me a break already.

[rock4185]

for years I would sleep 10 hrs a night and still wake up tired. after 3 days of taking 500 mg of magnesium and 25 mg of zinc before bed time i wake up only after 7-8 hrs and am not tired at all. its truly amazing.

[rock4185]

So Stalones special ZMA has properties that make it superior? More muscle hardness you say?


Geezusfreakinchryss. Give me a break already.

ya im pretty sure ZMA is a pantended formula so all brands have the same ammount of stuff in it.

[Beppy]

Yep, worked well for me......a few vivid dreams here or there, but i liked it so far.

[Flagg3]

Ah, yes, another genius who loves to prove how smart he is by cutting and pasting. Maybe you should try reading it. It says they recalled vivid dreams when they were AWAKENED!!!

Thank you for proving my point.

You've got to be kidding! Did you miss the part where it says that they recalled vivid dreams ONLY when awakened from REM sleep?


"When a sleeper in a research lab begins to exhibit the physiological indices of R.E.M sleep, and they are awakened, the great majority of the time they will report that they were having a vivid, story-like, dream. During other stages, on the other hand, they normally do not report dreaming. "

Maybe this quote from the Society for Neuroscience will clear things up for you.
http://www.sfn.org/content/Publicati...rem_sleep.html

"Much of what is known about sleep stems from the groundbreaking 1953 discovery of rapid eye movement (REM) sleep. This is an active period of sleep marked in humans by intense activity in the brain and rapid bursts of eye movements. At the same time, scientists discovered that REM sleep is when dreaming occurs."

Or this one from the American Psychiatric Association:
http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/39/1/22
"Most scientists of that era thought the brain merely idled in sleep. The discovery of REMs and their link to dreaming, however, showed the sleeping brain is active."

All of these quotes are referring to the 1953 studies from the University of Chicago that discovered the existence of the REM sleep stage and the fact that this was the stage that dreaming occurs.

Quoting from trusted sources and studies is how normal people substantiate claims of fact. Please, feel free to find a quote from ANY source that backs up your claims.

Flagg

[Mr.Brown]

NonCon, take a look at your rep. There is probably a good reason for it being the worst on this board and your comments here just add to your crappy reputation. Try reading........it helps.

And as far as the ZMA goes, good stuff. I've been on it for 2 weeks now and have had felt more rested when I wake up, had some kick a$$ dreams, and that morning wood that I had in highschool has returned w/a vengence.

[NonCon]

You've got to be kidding! Did you miss the part where it says that they recalled vivid dreams ONLY when awakened from REM sleep?


"When a sleeper in a research lab begins to exhibit the physiological indices of R.E.M sleep, and they are awakened, the great majority of the time they will report that they were having a vivid, story-like, dream. During other stages, on the other hand, they normally do not report dreaming. "

Maybe this quote from the Society for Neuroscience will clear things up for you.
http://www.sfn.org/content/Publicati...rem_sleep.html

"Much of what is known about sleep stems from the groundbreaking 1953 discovery of rapid eye movement (REM) sleep. This is an active period of sleep marked in humans by intense activity in the brain and rapid bursts of eye movements. At the same time, scientists discovered that REM sleep is when dreaming occurs."

Or this one from the American Psychiatric Association:
http://pn.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/39/1/22
"Most scientists of that era thought the brain merely idled in sleep. The discovery of REMs and their link to dreaming, however, showed the sleeping brain is active."

All of these quotes are referring to the 1953 studies from the University of Chicago that discovered the existence of the REM sleep stage and the fact that this was the stage that dreaming occurs.

Quoting from trusted sources and studies is how normal people substantiate claims of fact. Please, feel free to find a quote from ANY source that backs up your claims.

Flagg

You're obviously not bright enough to understand, so I'll try this again.

If you remember dreams, you are not in a deep sleep. The study you posted cocurs. The scientist WOKE THE SUBJECTS UP. That's when they remembered the dreams. Are you getting this? Never mind.

Mr. Brown. There's avery good reason for negitive rep -- a couple of idiots don't like to hear that they're wrong so in an act of petulence they flood someone with red. It's childish and stupid. I had many positive reps. What happened to them? Actually, I don't know exactly how the system works, nor do I care. But just becuase a group of people agree does not make the assesment correct.

ZMA is zinc and magnesium and has been around in vitamin pills for almost a century. Suddenly, Victor Conte (a man of dubious integrity to say the least) seperates the two, tells everyone that it has magical powers, and a generation of suckers choose to believe it. Some people swear that one brand is better than the next when it's all the same. Not placebo? Fine. I apologize for telling you there's no Santa Claus. Go back to the confort of your own ignorance. And may you all sleep well tonight.

[PieEyedPiper]

nothing but good results here.
I've used two cytodine zma products, both providing me with noticeable growth in my nuts and good sleeps/dreams.

[Flagg3]

You're obviously not bright enough to understand, so I'll try this again.

If you remember dreams, you are not in a deep sleep. The study you posted cocurs. The scientist WOKE THE SUBJECTS UP. That's when they remembered the dreams. Are you getting this? Never mind.

This may surprise you, but it is possible to wake someone up from a deep sleep.

I give up. Your right, everyone else is wrong. I apologize that we are all too stupid to understand your brilliant logic.

Flagg

[NonCon]

This may surprise you, but it is possible to wake someone up from a deep sleep.

I give up. Your right, everyone else is wrong. I apologize that we are all too stupid to understand your brilliant logic.

Flagg

One more time. It's the WAKING UP PART you don't get. Listen. Carefully. R,E,M is deep sleep. Agreed? Okay. REM dreams are not remembered. Therfore (now pay attention) you don't remember dreams in deep sleep. Got it? So if you remember dreams, you are NOT in REM. Is that too difficult to understand?

BTW: I love when someone says. "You're right -- everyone else is wrong." It's what people said about the earth being flat and the sun revolving around the earth and the right to exterminate people for their beliefs in Germany in 1940.

You see, someday when you grow up, you'll realize that the majority isn't always right. But you know what? I'm not alone in what I'm saying. There are lots of people who know this. It's just that you don't -- and a few gullible individuals. That's not "everybody."

[Flagg3]

One more time. It's the WAKING UP PART you don't get. Listen. Carefully. R,E,M is deep sleep. Agreed? Okay. REM dreams are not remembered. Therfore (now pay attention) you don't remember dreams in deep sleep. Got it? So if you remember dreams, you are NOT in REM. Is that too difficult to understand? "

This is the last time I will respond, because your obviously a troll who refuses to admit when you are wrong. Claiming that you are right doesn't make it so. If you are so convinced that you are correct, PLEASE, provide corroborating evidence. The 1953 and subsequent 1959 university studies specifically conclude that ALL dreaming takes place during REM sleep. Dreaming is a higher brain function, and it does not occur during theta or delta wave sleep.

Are you basing your assumptions on personal belief alone? If not what studies are you referring to?

I can make a claim that dreaming only occurs during the twilight zone stage of sleeping. Anyone can make an unfounded claim. If you can't back it up with evidence then that's all it is.

Flagg