Olympic Lifting = better vertical

[BigLarge]

I've read that Olympic Lifting is really good for your vertical jump. Well its true. My vertical jump has been between 23 and 24 inches the last few years, and i've been a bodybuilder/powerlifter during that time (ZERO olympic lifting EVER), with a max RAW squat of 495. The last 3 months i've done NO squats (as an experiment), and have ONLY done Power Snatches and Power Cleans and Jerks. Occasionally i'll do front squats with only the amount that I can Power clean (usually 205-225).

During this time, again, the only change in my program was switching from a conventional leg routine (squats etc), to Olympic Lifts, my vertical has increased 4 inches up to 27 inches.

I cant wait until next week when I incorporate box squats and heavy front squats ALONG with my Olmypic Lifts. I hope to hit a 30" vertical by the end of the year.

[raffiki]

Nice work man. Putting heavier front squats in should help.

[StrongInChrist]

I just thought of making a thread about this. I too want to increase my vert with O lifts. The basic movers seem to be the hips and lower back in a two footed jump. Do you think I could just do explosive high pulls since I dont really care about catching the clean? The power clean seems to be the thing that increases the vert.

[raffiki]

I just thought of making a thread about this. I too want to increase my vert with O lifts. The basic movers seem to be the hips and lower back in a two footed jump. Do you think I could just do explosive high pulls since I dont really care about catching the clean? The power clean seems to be the thing that increases the vert.

High pulls will work if you have a height device. Otherwise you could just be adding weight and not getting it quite as high. The thing about power cleans is that you either catch it or don't.

I disagree with your last statement. Power cleans are just what most people do because snatches, jerks, and deep squats are harder to do. Cleans (including squat cleans) are only a portion of weightlifting. Actual "power cleans are 5% or less of my training. Besides the snatch has proven to display more power than the clean.

It's like saying that all cops are fat because they donuts. Donuts are only part of it.

[StrongInChrist]

I see what you mean. I usually do my high pulls to hit my chest and kinda jump with the bar. I try to mimic a jump. If its not hitting the chest I go lighter. So are you agreeing with the part about the cleans being what increases the vert? This is the only thing I want from O lifts atm because Im a PLer. What type of cleaning routine is best for increasing the vert?

[raffiki]

So are you agreeing with the part about the cleans being what increases the vert?

No. You missed my point entirely. I was saying that all the exercises that o-lifters do contributes to a great vertical. Also the training is very efficient. The full squats help increase the snatch, clean, and jerk. The snatch helps increase the clean, jerk, and squats. Etc. They all work together.

What type of cleaning routine is best for increasing the vert?

Right now I work in phases. Start with working on your 5RM for 6-8 weeks. Then 3RM for 6-8 weeks. Then singles for 3-4 weeks. That should get you some new PRs. Just work them the same way you would do squats. Cycle the weights, and do a new program every 3-4 weeks or so.

[Ibanez]

There's a study that compares olympic lifting exercises to traditional jumping exercises and the olifts out performed the traditional jumping exercises.

[James456]

I've read that Olympic Lifting is really good for your vertical jump. Well its true. My vertical jump has been between 23 and 24 inches the last few years, and i've been a bodybuilder/powerlifter during that time (ZERO olympic lifting EVER), with a max RAW squat of 495. The last 3 months i've done NO squats (as an experiment), and have ONLY done Power Snatches and Power Cleans and Jerks. Occasionally i'll do front squats with only the amount that I can Power clean (usually 205-225).

During this time, again, the only change in my program was switching from a conventional leg routine (squats etc), to Olympic Lifts, my vertical has increased 4 inches up to 27 inches.

I cant wait until next week when I incorporate box squats and heavy front squats ALONG with my Olmypic Lifts. I hope to hit a 30" vertical by the end of the year.

Well done man. I reckon that big squat of yours helped give you good foudation to work off

[James456]

There's a study that compares olympic lifting exercises to traditional jumping exercises and the olifts out performed the traditional jumping exercises.

Really? Thats interesting i throught coaches were using olifts less and less. Well particulary Joe Defranco

[Arlecchino]

It is not just the re-bend action of the unloading phase on the pull, but the catch as well that contributes to an increased vertical leap. The catch increases the ability to generate force secondary to increased myotactile response/RFD.

I am currently looking for a study showing the effects of different modes of training on the VL. As soon as I find it (thought I had it on my hard drive, but apparently not) I will post it.

[PrivateBaldrick]

Really? Thats interesting i throught coaches were using olifts less and less. Well particulary Joe Defranco

What planet are you on?

[StrongInChrist]

Good points from everyone. This is an interesting topic so please post all your info with results too. I wanna know its been tried and tested.

[James456]

What planet are you on?

I am not suggesting for a moment that Olifts dont work at getting people explosive. All i am saying is that some coaches from articles i read dont think there necassary for getting there athletes explosive. And Joe Defranco is one one of the of main ones and he admantly thinks there not necasary and he has produced results without them having got a good number of athletes at his facilty with 35+ verticals a couple above 40. Thats all

[thebigboss9]

yess but do you know that olympic lifters have the highest verticals in the world?

[BEhave]

yea. go search frank yang on youtube and prepare to be amazed.

a good vertical depends on explosive strength which olympics lifts help a lot with

[Lager1]

yea. go search frank yang on youtube and prepare to be amazed.

I did, and I was.

[Cheetah]

Well doesn't it make sense. I know i'm not the only one who jumps when doing olympic lifters. Plus for power cleans you don't need a spot, if you can't lift it, it just drops. I was so happy when I first got 185. (no bounce)

[thadaz]

so from what i've gathered the snatch,power clean, hang clean, hang snatch is the best to incorporate into my routine, but how should i divide this all up into the week, obviously i can't do all 4 on the one day?

[Kiknskreem]

I am not suggesting for a moment that Olifts dont work at getting people explosive. All i am saying is that some coaches from articles i read dont think there necassary for getting there athletes explosive. And Joe Defranco is one one of the of main ones and he admantly thinks there not necasary and he has produced results without them having got a good number of athletes at his facilty with 35+ verticals a couple above 40. Thats all

What this guy is saying is true... there are those out there that dont believe olympic lifting is the holy grail often made out to be.

Here is Kelly Bagget on the subject....

Are Cleans and Other Olympic Lifts Necessary?


Q: I have a question about what I recall you saying about there not being much of a need to engage in explosive weight room work using olympic lifts like cleans. I love the hang power clean. Are you saying that improving the clean doesn?t also improve explosiveness in other activities?
Just like any other explosive movement, the clean (or snatch) can help bridge the gap between total strength and total useable strength, if that is an area lacking. However, by itself it isn?t a miracle exercise. I love performing hang cleans myself, but a good clean is really a demonstration, or indicator, of explosiveness, just like a fast sprint and a good vertical jump are good demonstrations of explosiveness.

Let's just say for the sake of argument that the clean correlates perfectly with your on-field explosiveness (running and jumping etc.) So, any improvements you make to your clean will be transferred into your running speed and jumps. You'd obviously want to get your clean poundages as high as possible right? Let's say you choose 315 pounds as the magic number. Now, what is the best way to get your clean up to 315 pounds? Can the guy with a 200-pound squat build his clean up to 315 pounds by just performing cleans? Hardly. Can the guy with a 300-pound squat clean 315? No. Can a guy who practices cleans every day of his life, yet only squats 300 pounds, clean as much as the 700 pound squatting powerlifter who comes into the gym and does cleans for the first time in his life? Usually not. My point is this: How much you can clean is highly dependent on how strong you are overall and cleans aren't as good as movements like squats and deadlifts at making you stronger overall. Regardless of how good your technique is on cleans and how much you practice them, the only way you're gonna clean 315 is if you get your overall body strength up to the point where you are capable of at least a ~400 pound squat and 400 pound deadlift minimum.

Once you've mastered the technique in the lift and learned to express your strength in the lift, the only way to continue driving your clean poundages up is to get stronger overall. The clean is really about 1/3 technique, 1/3 explosiveness, and 1/3 strength. Initially, clean poundages will increase as you master the correct technique. Once you've mastered the proper technique, you'll continue to make some gains as you better learn to express your strength, or become more explosive in the exercise. If you're the guy who squats 500 pounds and only cleans 175, you have a big gap between your overall strength and useable (explosive) strength and obviously have a lot of room for improvement. You'd probably be able to take your clean all the way up to 315 by doing nothing but cleans. But if you're the guy who squats 300 pounds and cleans 225, you'd probably never get any better at cleans by just practicing cleans. At some point, you'd have to pay your dues in the power rack getting your strength up on basic movements like squats and deadlifts so that you?d have more raw strength to express.

Now, let's look at a sprint or a jump the same way we would the clean. They're both demonstrations of explosiveness. Since actually practicing the clean is the best way to learn to express your strength in the clean, wouldn't it make sense that practicing variations of the sprint and jumps (and things closely related to that like plyometrics), would be the best way to learn to express your strength in those movements? There is a lot of specifity involved with improvements in speed-strength movements and the carryover from one activity to the next is fairly small. If you couldn't express your strength very good in the sprint or jump what makes you think you'd best improve upon that by engaging in cleans?

Improvements in a sprint or jump are just like improvements in the clean. Initially you'll improve as you master the correct technique. You'll continue to improve as you are better able to express your strength in the movement. If you're the 175 pound guy who squats 500 and only runs a 5.2 40 yard dash, you will probably have a lot of room for improvement. But if you're the 175 pound guy who only squats 250 and already runs a 4.55 forty yard dash, you're probably not gonna get much faster by just sprinting. At some point, just like the clean, you're gonna have to pay your dues with the heavy iron and get your strength up so that you have more raw horsepower to tap into.

Now, let's assume that you already spend a significant amount of time in the weight room getting stronger overall. Let's also assume that you spend a fair amount of time performing a nice assortment of sprint, movement, and plyo work. So, in the weight room you're driving your strength and baseline levels of horsepower up. On the field, you're better learning to express that strength in the most direct way possible - by engaging in the very things that you're trying to improve (sprinting, jumping etc). Since you're already addressing your baseline strength and you're already directly addressing your ability to express strength in the specific movements, what are cleans gonna give you that you're not already getting?

I hope that makes sense. One other drawbacks to cleans and other olympic lifts is they are technical lifts that do require some coaching. I know a good coach can teach someone how to do a proper clean or snatch within minutes, but judging by the technique I've seen in most high schools there is a big shortage of good coaches that can properly teach these lifts. It?s not that cleans will hurt you by any means, I like them too but it?s not like you need them.

Having said all that, the best utility for the cleans and other explosive weight room movements would be for someone like I mentioned above who had a big squat and slow running times. His maximum strength is already there and it need not be a big focal point, so, instead of just getting him stronger in the weight room, we could focus on getting him to express his strength better in all his activities, including the weight room. He could use lots of speedier type exercises like cleans, speed box squats, and jump squats while also working on getting more explosive in his field activities. Where cleans and related exercises would REALLY be more beneficial is for this same ?strong but slow? type of guy who also, for whatever reason, isn?t able to get out and engage in much specific sprint, movement, and plyo work. They wouldn?t be as effective as the specific sprint, movement, and plyo work, but would at least allow him to train his nervous system to produce faster contractions with some type of accelerative emphasis.

One other good utility for the clean and associated movements is this: Assuming that one has pretty good technique in the clean, it can also be used as a pretty good gauge to ensure that you're building useable strength, or strength that you can use in a fairly high velocity manner. In other words, let's assume that I determine that a person that can clean 75% of his best back squat is doing a pretty good job utilizing the raw strength that he has. So, assuming that technique is good, a person squatting 200 pounds should be able to clean 150, while a person squatting 400 pounds should be able to clean 300. Let's say you have an athlete that squats 400 pounds but only cleans 200. From that information, we know that he's not able to utilize his strength in a high velocity specific manner very effectively, so he would best work on bridging the gap between his strength and useable strength. In other words, instead of continually trying to push up his squat weight, he'd be best to focus on more explosive oriented work in his training. In contrast, the guy squatting 400 and cleaning 300 is already doing a pretty good job using the strength he has, and, assuming his field related tests didn?t show any explosive deficiencies, he?d know that in order to improve he could just get stronger overall.

Louie Simmons is also of this persuasion and again the main idea of building raw horsepower in the limit strength lifts and then expressing that strength best through the practice of specific sporting activities. He also cites the controlled first pull as a reason why they can be sub-optimal.

[raffiki]

"The clean is really about 1/3 technique, 1/3 explosiveness, and 1/3 strength."

Wow.

The truth is that the clean is like any other exercise. You can get stronger just by working at that one lift. A bigger deadlift will only equate to a bigger clean in the beginner and intermediate stages. I agree that training max strength is important, but it isn't a replacement, and it has it's limits.

[Kiknskreem]

The truth is that the clean is like any other exercise. You can get stronger just by working at that one lift. A bigger deadlift will only equate to a bigger clean in the beginner and intermediate stages. I agree that training max strength is important, but it isn't a replacement, and it has it's limits.

I don't think Bagget would disagree.... but Olympic lifters are surely also doing heavy back squats, front squats, and high pulls all to increase the classical lifts. Same principle at work there.

[AJ010]

High pulls will work if you have a height device. Otherwise you could just be adding weight and not getting it quite as high. The thing about power cleans is that you either catch it or don't.

I disagree with your last statement. Power cleans are just what most people do because snatches, jerks, and deep squats are harder to do. Cleans (including squat cleans) are only a portion of weightlifting. Actual "power cleans are 5% or less of my training. Besides the snatch has proven to display more power than the clean.

It's like saying that all cops are fat because they donuts. Donuts are only part of it.

So...you could do high pulls in a power rack with the safety pins at a set height. Is that what you mean?

[thadaz]

Hey Kiknskreem
do u have a link for the rest of that kelly baggett article, that was a great read, learnt alot from just reading that extract!

[Kiknskreem]

Hey Kiknskreem
do u have a link for the rest of that kelly baggett article, that was a great read, learnt alot from just reading that extract!

There's a lot of good relevant stuff right here...

http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/articles.html

[thadaz]

seems like alot of measuring points/yardsticks are done with the squat, i know in his vert jump bible he also uses what an athlete squats (max force or strength without time constraint)vs what the athlete outputs (max force put out in a vertical jump .2 seconds) as good indicators...

so from everything ive seen and read thus far, would it be fair to say that the squat is probably the single most important exercise to be strong in before moving on to other exercises?

[Kiknskreem]

so from everything ive seen and read thus far, would it be fair to say that the squat is probably the single most important exercise to be strong in before moving on to other exercises?

You don't have to squat to the exclusion of other exercises... but yes it is typically considered the most fundamental exercise.

[sillz100]

not every1 who wants a big vertical should run out and do olympic lifts. They do work. But most would benefit a lot more from getting their squat to 1.5x or 2x and lift explosively, accelerate through your lifts. If you have a high squat relative to your bodyweight you should start looking into other things........ olympic lifts, plymoterics.

[Bodysteele]

I've read that Olympic Lifting is really good for your vertical jump. Well its true. My vertical jump has been between 23 and 24 inches the last few years, and i've been a bodybuilder/powerlifter during that time (ZERO olympic lifting EVER), with a max RAW squat of 495. The last 3 months i've done NO squats (as an experiment), and have ONLY done Power Snatches and Power Cleans and Jerks. Occasionally i'll do front squats with only the amount that I can Power clean (usually 205-225).

During this time, again, the only change in my program was switching from a conventional leg routine (squats etc), to Olympic Lifts, my vertical has increased 4 inches up to 27 inches.

I cant wait until next week when I incorporate box squats and heavy front squats ALONG with my Olmypic Lifts. I hope to hit a 30" vertical by the end of the year.

Makes complete sens to me if youve been training with a PLing stance and for PLing all along.

Does your body benefit from building a bigger "engine" in the explosive realms?

Absolutely, especially in the first 6 months- year of lifting.

Do I think its HUGELY successful in raising your vertical after a year or so of gains....

No, not really.

Should SOME heavy squatting be incorporated into your program forever...sure, why not...you should be periodozing your workouts and it should be a large part of the "power/strength" period and less and less a part as you move into more and more explosive training.

Oly lifting and squatting for speed and below maximal poundages should be a much bigger part OVERALL as well as plyometrics.


I think also you guys are placing WAY too much emphasis on numbers while form/biomechanics in large part determine numbers in alot of trainees and certain idiosyncratic things leverage-wise can make squatting very challenging to some trainees.

Obviously people LESS suited for squatting arent going to regularly congregate on aPLing board so of course the opinion will be slanted the other way on here....I played fball with several guys with long limbs and VERY long forelimbs that always struggled to squat...nevertheless they benefitted from Olympic lifting, plyometrics, and other lifts....and performed quite well in the Vertical Jump. They also were very much standout athletes when it came to leaping/running and speed.

Lets not act as if everyone is cut from the same mold bc they arent.

[raffiki]

So...you could do high pulls in a power rack with the safety pins at a set height. Is that what you mean?

I've heard of people using a broomstick, you don't want to stop the movement of the bar.