Anyone into MMA fighting?

**Kane Fan** · 03-22-2005, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by bluemarlin04

for everyone saying you cant setup in BJJ or grappling is wrong. In fact its all about setups. The higher level players can setup subs by doing moves and what not. Its not going with the flow, its creating the things you want ur opponent to do. A bad grappler will wait for whats given, a good one will make something happen.

the other guy still has to go for your setup tho to leave himself open
with striking you can rather easily throw a jab at their face, they either move or get hit, either way you have forced them to do soemthing
with grappling you can do set ups but I think it's much more difficult then with standup
at least for me it is

**bluemarlin04** · 03-22-2005, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by Kane Fan

the other guy still has to go for your setup tho to leave himself open
with striking you can rather easily throw a jab at their face, they either move or get hit, either way you have forced them to do soemthing
with grappling you can do set ups but I think it's much more difficult then with standup
at least for me it is

yea get ur point now.

**TDW586** · 03-22-2005, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by bluemarlin04

for everyone saying you cant setup in BJJ or grappling is wrong. In fact its all about setups. The higher level players can setup subs by doing moves and what not. Its not going with the flow, its creating the things you want ur opponent to do. A bad grappler will wait for whats given, a good one will make something happen.

No, a good grappler will take the opportunity. Obviously you can encourage an opponent to do something, but you can't set it up like you can with straight striking.

For example, the recent fight between Andrei Arlovski and Tim Sylvia. When Sylvia went down from a right cross, Arlovski, a superb grappler, did not try to go down to guard for a knee bar or mount for a kata gatami. He took the opportunity that was given him and went for the Achilles lock to end it right there.

**bluemarlin04** · 03-22-2005, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by TDW586

No, a good grappler will take the opportunity. Obviously you can encourage an opponent to do something, but you can't set it up like you can with straight striking.

For example, the recent fight between Andrei Arlovski and Tim Sylvia. When Sylvia went down from a right cross, Arlovski, a superb grappler, did not try to go down to guard for a knee bar or mount for a kata gatami. He took the opportunity that was given him and went for the Achilles lock to end it right there.

yea I know that. Its different than striking. But you can bait ur opponent into doing things. I guess it is different in the sense of striking setups. But you can make people play ur game. Professional grapplers are good at making the other guy play ur game.

**TDW586** · 03-22-2005, 06:02 PM

Originally Posted by bluemarlin04

yea I know that. Its different than striking. But you can bait ur opponent into doing things. I guess it is different in the sense of striking setups. But you can make people play ur game. Professional grapplers are good at making the other guy play ur game.

Of course, you can't be passive. But a good grappler will never pass up any good opportunity to try a lock to wait for a great one.

**bluemarlin04** · 03-22-2005, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by TDW586

Of course, you can't be passive. But a good grappler will never pass up any good opportunity to try a lock to wait for a great one.

good point, agreed.

**Kane Fan** · 03-23-2005, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by bluemarlin04

yea get ur point now.

well then I respect you even more now cus most people don't know wtf I am saying

**Kane Fan** · 03-23-2005, 03:31 PM

I hope to someday be a good grappler

**beachbum23** · 03-23-2005, 03:35 PM

You guys are just jealous because I've been talking to hoy chicks all day, besides, you know I'm training to beceome a cage fighter!

**chad21186** · 03-25-2005, 10:31 PM

I train under hixen in beverly hills. i have been here now for about 7 years and befor this i did judo for 4 years. I wresteld in high shcool but i did not like it. I love BJJ and will stand by this stuff for the rest of my life. Judo is ok also but not for a way of fighting more for a sport. They give there back witch is not a good thing in BJJ and also in a real fight. I think that normal wrestling sucks balls in a real fight. So dont take that stuff try to take a BJJ class and make sure it is gracy certified so you dont get some noob trying to teach you stuff. If you want to fight you are going to need some basic stand up striking stuff. I would stay away from hmm well every thing

i would just mabey take a kick boxing class or just boxing. 90% of fights end up on the ground. So focus on BJJ and work on some boxing stuff. Kicks only work in movies. kicking at knees works but any thing else is gay. BJJ is what you need to focus on.

**bluemarlin04** · 03-25-2005, 11:39 PM

Originally Posted by chad21186

I train under hixen in beverly hills. i have been here now for about 7 years and befor this i did judo for 4 years. I wresteld in high shcool but i did not like it. I love BJJ and will stand by this stuff for the rest of my life. Judo is ok also but not for a way of fighting more for a sport. They give there back witch is not a good thing in BJJ and also in a real fight. I think that normal wrestling sucks balls in a real fight. So dont take that stuff try to take a BJJ class and make sure it is gracy certified so you dont get some noob trying to teach you stuff. If you want to fight you are going to need some basic stand up striking stuff. I would stay away from hmm well every thing

i would just mabey take a kick boxing class or just boxing. 90% of fights end up on the ground. So focus on BJJ and work on some boxing stuff. Kicks only work in movies. kicking at knees works but any thing else is gay. BJJ is what you need to focus on.

What?

**TDW586** · 03-26-2005, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by chad21186

I train under hixen in beverly hills. i have been here now for about 7 years and befor this i did judo for 4 years. I wresteld in high shcool but i did not like it. I love BJJ and will stand by this stuff for the rest of my life. Judo is ok also but not for a way of fighting more for a sport. They give there back witch is not a good thing in BJJ and also in a real fight. I think that normal wrestling sucks balls in a real fight. So dont take that stuff try to take a BJJ class and make sure it is gracy certified so you dont get some noob trying to teach you stuff. If you want to fight you are going to need some basic stand up striking stuff. I would stay away from hmm well every thing

i would just mabey take a kick boxing class or just boxing. 90% of fights end up on the ground. So focus on BJJ and work on some boxing stuff. Kicks only work in movies. kicking at knees works but any thing else is gay. BJJ is what you need to focus on.

.....

**bluemarlin04** · 03-26-2005, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by bluemarlin04

What?

first off its rickson.
second its gracie
third your an idiot

**TDW586** · 03-26-2005, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by chad21186

BJJ is what you need to focus on.

Yeah...tell that to Tito Ortiz. If you can find him, he might still be on the ground after Chuck Liddell knocked his ass out.

When are you BJJ boys going to figure out that strikers have figured out how to beat you, even in the ground game?

How many championships do your guys need to lose before it sinks in?

Originally Posted by chad21186

I think that normal wrestling sucks balls in a real fight

Damn, man, rent UFC 49: Unfinished Buisness and watch Vitor Belfort bleed all over himself, the ring and Randy Couture, a Greco-Roman wrestler, as he beats him senseless for 3 rounds.

**pbradish** · 03-26-2005, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by chad21186

I train under hixen in beverly hills. i have been here now for about 7 years and befor this i did judo for 4 years. I wresteld in high shcool but i did not like it. I love BJJ and will stand by this stuff for the rest of my life. Judo is ok also but not for a way of fighting more for a sport. They give there back witch is not a good thing in BJJ and also in a real fight. I think that normal wrestling sucks balls in a real fight. So dont take that stuff try to take a BJJ class and make sure it is gracy certified so you dont get some noob trying to teach you stuff. If you want to fight you are going to need some basic stand up striking stuff. I would stay away from hmm well every thing

i would just mabey take a kick boxing class or just boxing. 90% of fights end up on the ground. So focus on BJJ and work on some boxing stuff. Kicks only work in movies. kicking at knees works but any thing else is gay. BJJ is what you need to focus on.

Someone who's trained bjj for 7+ and judo for 4+ would not be saying this. Standup is equally important, and wrestling is extremely important and actually intensifies your bjj. I mean, ****, did you think that those single and double leg takedowns that you've perfected by now are true bjj?

that's pure ignorance.

**pbradish** · 03-26-2005, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by TDW586

When are you BJJ boys going to figure out that strikers have figured out how to beat you, even in the ground game?

there aren't any true bjj boys anymore who actually compete in mma. even guys like royce and all the vets train stand-up with their grappling, or vica versa.

I think I know the type you are talking about though. The bjj guys who think it's god's gift to the world, and they are invincible. I love bjj but it's just one of many tools fighters should have. It's cool to specialize, but to specialize 100% in one art is asking for disaster imo.

I box downtown at a hardcore boxing gym as well, and if he said **** like that he'd have to pick himself up off the floor, lol.

**bluemarlin04** · 03-26-2005, 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by TDW586

Yeah...tell that to Tito Ortiz. If you can find him, he might still be on the ground after Chuck Liddell knocked his ass out.

When are you BJJ boys going to figure out that strikers have figured out how to beat you, even in the ground game?

How many championships do your guys need to lose before it sinks in?

Damn, man, rent UFC 49: Unfinished Buisness and watch Vitor Belfort bleed all over himself, the ring and Randy Couture, a Greco-Roman wrestler, as he beats him senseless for 3 rounds.

not exactly true. BJ penn dominates the ground in his weight class. The UFC just has a lack of good submission fighters. Pride has good subs and grapplers. BJ penn is the best P4P in the world and hes a BJJ fighter. Fabrico werdum is up and coming the world championship BJJ fighter. Saying that is Ignorant. Vitor blows at grappling and Tito is a wrestler not BJJ though he has some subs. Matt hughes wrestles and subs people. Saying that is just off.

**pbradish** · 03-26-2005, 02:22 PM

yup. groundfighting is alot more boring to the average ufc fan than a KO. ufc really caters to stand up fighters, which keeps things more exciting for american viewers and increases ppv sales.

if you goto many other parts of the world it is the opposite though.

**TDW586** · 03-26-2005, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by bluemarlin04

not exactly true. BJ penn dominates the ground in his weight class. The UFC just has a lack of good submission fighters. Pride has good subs and grapplers. BJ penn is the best P4P in the world and hes a BJJ fighter. Fabrico werdum is up and coming the world championship BJJ fighter. Saying that is Ignorant.

Come on. Who are the Pride Champions, as of now? Fedor, who wins more fights via decision or KO than sub, and Wanderlai Silva, a Muy Thai fighter with very little in the way of subs.

As for Fabrico Werdrum...don't know much about him, and until he is a champion in some sort of MMA/NHB, he really doesn't enter into this discussion.

Originally Posted by bluemarlin04

Vitor blows at grappling and Tito is a wrestler not BJJ though he has some subs. Matt hughes wrestles and subs people. Saying that is just off.

Okay, forgive me for saying BJJ: all primarily submission fighters.

**TDW586** · 03-26-2005, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by pbradish

there aren't any true bjj boys anymore who actually compete in mma. even guys like royce and all the vets train stand-up with their grappling, or vica versa.

I think I know the type you are talking about though. The bjj guys who think it's god's gift to the world, and they are invincible. I love bjj but it's just one of many tools fighters should have. It's cool to specialize, but to specialize 100% in one art is asking for disaster imo.

I box downtown at a hardcore boxing gym as well, and if he said **** like that he'd have to pick himself up off the floor, lol.

^^^^^^Exactly.

I have disdain for anyone who refuses to cross-train or dismisses any fighting style out of hand.

In my mind, straight BJJ fighters (I admit there aren't many in MMA/NHB anymore; and there's a reason for that) are just as bad as TKD guys who think they can fight. Just on different ends of the spectrum.

**bluemarlin04** · 03-26-2005, 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by TDW586

Come on. Who are the Pride Champions, as of now? Fedor, who wins more fights via decision or KO than sub, and Wanderlai Silva, a Muy Thai fighter with very little in the way of subs.

As for Fabrico Werdrum...don't know much about him, and until he is a champion in some sort of MMA/NHB, he really doesn't enter into this discussion.

Okay, forgive me for saying BJJ: all primarily submission fighters.

Nog is the second best hw they have. A BJJ black belt who won 17 of his fights by submission. Fedor is a sambo and judo champ who won 9 of his pride fights by subs. Your argument is flawed. Submissions still work in MMA.

Fedors Record: See how many KO's he has to Subs
http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/f...fighterID=1500

Nogs record: Look how many subs he has that ended the fight
http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/f...fighterID=1440

So I dont understand where your saying subs dont work because they do, strikers obviously still lose, so it goes both ways

**TDW586** · 03-26-2005, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by bluemarlin04

Nog is the second best hw they have. A BJJ black belt who won 17 of his fights by submission. Fedor is a sambo and judo champ who won 9 of his pride fights by subs. Your argument is flawed. Submissions still work in MMA.

Fedors Record: See how many KO's he has to Subs
http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/f...fighterID=1500

Nogs record: Look how many subs he has that ended the fight
http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/f...fighterID=1440

So I dont understand where your saying subs dont work because they do, strikers obviously still lose, so it goes both ways

Look up the thread and tell me exactly where I said submissions did not work.

In fact, I specifically stated that they did in another post to you in another thread.

I said styles based primarily on submissions are inferior to styles based primarily on striking.

Show me why that argument is flawed, not some other argument.

**bluemarlin04** · 03-26-2005, 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by TDW586

I said styles based primarily on submissions are inferior to styles based primarily on striking.

Why are they inferior? I just proved that their not. The two top HW in the world are grapplers. So your argument is flawed inthe fact that their not inferior, but more or less equal.

**zmanpt** · 03-27-2005, 01:46 PM

its all about flow. moving with your opponent. setups are always the way to go. but when you train with the higher level like brown belts and above, setting up wont work.. but i get what you mean.. buti am just talking about gi and no gi fights. vale tudo is another story but how many hits can you get in on a guy before you hit the ground.

**TheCrazyCossack** · 03-27-2005, 01:59 PM

lol since you all seem to love arguing about these types of thinsg go sing up here...

www.defend.net/deluxeforums

better place to argue with people about these types of things....

**zmanpt** · 03-27-2005, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by TheCrazyCossack

lol since you all seem to love arguing about these types of thinsg go sing up here...

www.defend.net/deluxeforums

better place to argue with people about these types of things....

LETS ALL GO TO THE RING.
EVERYONE WOULD HAVE MORE RESPECT FOR EACHOTHER.

BE WELL

ZMAN

**StevieSparkZ** · 03-27-2005, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by bluemarlin04

i train man...

I more of a grappler, train about 3-4 times a week...do a lot of bag work and lots and lots of grappling. I wouldnt try wrestling if i was you, you will lack submission knowledge, if anything learn the takedowns and thatll be good then learn some BJJ.

Oh no, I strongly disagree, I started out in HS wrestling. It gives you EXCELLENT base and balance training. It gives you awesome takedowns of course as well as takedown defense. The wrestlers dominate the UFC, Matt Lindland who was walkin thru everyone in the middleweights, matt hughes, 6 time UFC champion and current holder of the WW belt, couture holds LHW belt, thats nuff said.

Frank Mir is also a state champion from NV, but hes more of a grappler and he's shown takedowns before.
My point is that you can never neglect wrestling, some of the most conditioned people in the world are collegiate and olympic wrestlers... Lindland/Couture/Henderson, when was the last time you've seen any of them gas out in a match?

**StevieSparkZ** · 03-27-2005, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by TDW586

Come on. Who are the Pride Champions, as of now? Fedor, who wins more fights via decision or KO than sub, and Wanderlai Silva, a Muy Thai fighter with very little in the way of subs.

As for Fabrico Werdrum...don't know much about him, and until he is a champion in some sort of MMA/NHB, he really doesn't enter into this discussion.

Okay, forgive me for saying BJJ: all primarily submission fighters.

Wrong.........It's MMA, MIXED martial arts, someone without any kind of training in a grappling art who does dominate, WILL NOT for long..

Example: Mark Coleman, won the pride GP 2000, later on at Pride 16: Beasts from the East, Noguiera triangle chokes him. He goes on to be arm barred by fedor.......

Now fedor may win more by TKO, (not KO) is a world champion in sambo....which is the russian version of judo and it has a lot of emphasis on submissions, primarily on leg locks....he won another world sambo tournament after his 2nd fight with nog.....

Before Fedor, who looks to be the most well rounded fighter out there, noguiera was holding the belt and walked through the heavyweight division.....he beat coleman for the belt, then beat herring, then he triangled schilt and etc etc

Wanderlei Silva....primarily a muay thai artist, he strikes....however he received his black belt in BJJ about 2 years ago....hes been training for years.....

Werdum is currently cro cop's newer BJJ teacher, after cro cop got beat by randleman, he fired Mike Bencic and werdum is his new trainer, werdum is a world champion in BJJ, he took the mundials.....

....then after cro cop worked with him, he rematched randleman and choked him out with a gullotine.....

So TDW586....cliff notes? You are wrong..VERY wrong.

**bluemarlin04** · 03-27-2005, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by StevieSparkZ

Wrong.........It's MMA, MIXED martial arts, someone without any kind of training in a grappling art who does dominate, WILL NOT for long..

Example: Mark Coleman, won the pride GP 2000, later on at Pride 16: Beasts from the East, Noguiera triangle chokes him. He goes on to be arm barred by fedor.......

Now fedor may win more by TKO, (not KO) is a world champion in sambo....which is the russian version of judo and it has a lot of emphasis on submissions, primarily on leg locks....he won another world sambo tournament after his 2nd fight with nog.....

Before Fedor, who looks to be the most well rounded fighter out there, noguiera was holding the belt and walked through the heavyweight division.....he beat coleman for the belt, then beat herring, then he triangled schilt and etc etc

Wanderlei Silva....primarily a muay thai artist, he strikes....however he received his black belt in BJJ about 2 years ago....hes been training for years.....

Werdum is currently cro cop's newer BJJ teacher, after cro cop got beat by randleman, he fired Mike Bencic and werdum is his new trainer, werdum is a world champion in BJJ, he took the mundials.....

....then after cro cop worked with him, he rematched randleman and choked him out with a gullotine.....

So TDW586....cliff notes? You are wrong..VERY wrong.

excellent post my friend...i wasnt saying that wrestling was bad or anything...hell i would love to wrestle, what i was trying to imply was that if your gonna fight you need to know how to not get submissions.

**Kane Fan** · 03-27-2005, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by pbradish

there aren't any true bjj boys anymore who actually compete in mma. even guys like royce and all the vets train stand-up with their grappling, or vica versa.

I think I know the type you are talking about though. The bjj guys who think it's god's gift to the world, and they are invincible. I love bjj but it's just one of many tools fighters should have. It's cool to specialize, but to specialize 100% in one art is asking for disaster imo.

I box downtown at a hardcore boxing gym as well, and if he said **** like that he'd have to pick himself up off the floor, lol.

I like that guy who posted here and said BJJ was the only real martial art and everything else was useless, and then he told us he also trained in Muy Thai
I was like wtf, why do you train in two styles if only one is any good, are you just being polite to the other instructor?

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