Kre-Anabolyn

[Mixelflick]

Just noticed this new product at www.againsttherules.com

Interesting combo of Kre-Alkalyn, 4-hydroxyisoleucine, L-dopa and 98% pure Rhaponticum Carthamoides. I've never seen that combo before but it looks really good. I've had good luck with Ecdy, and remember buying from this company when they sold Zoe Discoveries Zebutol (blue tabs) in the early 90's.

I'm going to order a few bottles and keep a log.

[Garyboy]

Looks like a very interesting formulation.

Would be interested to see how this works out for you.Good luck.

[Mixelflick]

Yeah, interesting formula for sure.

Looks like it would drive a lot of creatine/carb storage from a meal plus boost dopamine/protein synthesis. I'll be using urinary testing strips to get a concrete look at if that's really the case.

Have you used rhaponticum carthamoides before?

[Danrules14]

I went on the site and read the article about the product yet i am still without a clue on what this product is..can someone care to enlighten me?

[Garyboy]

I went on the site and read the article about the product yet i am still without a clue on what this product is..can someone care to enlighten me?

Leuzea Rhaponticum Carthamoides • L-Dopa
Kre-Alkalyn • 4-Hydroxy-L-isoleucine

Would be nice to know the dosage of at least ingredient, or at the very least, a proprietary blend number. Nonetheless, looks like something with good potential.

[Garyboy]

Yeah, interesting formula for sure.

Looks like it would drive a lot of creatine/carb storage from a meal plus boost dopamine/protein synthesis. I'll be using urinary testing strips to get a concrete look at if that's really the case.

Have you used rhaponticum carthamoides before?

No, I have never used rhaponticum carthamoides before/

What excatly do these urinary testing strips do and where do you get them? They sound like something I'd love to try out.

Thanks for your help and good luck with the Kre-Anabolyn.

[Mixelflick]

Formula looks like it will maximize protein synthesis, glycogen storage, creatine storage and boost nitrogen retention via non-hormonal means. It is clever I will give them that.

[Mixelflick]

I'll be using Multistix urinary testing strips which test for protein/glucose etc..

I plan on consuming a "control" meal of 2 cups of oatmeal with honey, natural PB and raisins mixed w/ 2 scoops of MassPro chocolate whey protein:

> Measure with the Multistix at 30, 60, 90 and 120 min intervals post meal.Then re-test but this time with X number of Kre-Anabolyn capsules before the meal.

> If I see lower protein/glucose in the urine after such a test, I'll know they're on to something. Probably wouldn't take too long to do this either. Couple of weeks maybe to throw out the high/low figures and average the results over a dozen or so meals.

After 6 weeks, I should have enough data from skinfolds/training journal to assess body comp changes.

[Garyboy]

I'll be using Multistix urinary testing strips which test for protein/glucose etc..

I plan on consuming a "control" meal of 2 cups of oatmeal with honey, natural PB and raisins mixed w/ 2 scoops of MassPro chocolate whey protein:

> Measure with the Multistix at 30, 60, 90 and 120 min intervals post meal.Then re-test but this time with X number of Kre-Anabolyn capsules before the meal.

> If I see lower protein/glucose in the urine after such a test, I'll know they're on to something. Probably wouldn't take too long to do this either. Couple of weeks maybe to throw out the high/low figures and average the results over a dozen or so meals.

After 6 weeks, I should have enough data from skinfolds/training journal to assess body comp changes.

Good luck. I hope you're kind enough to provide a review or log. I'm really interested to see how this works out for you. Thanks.

[John Drake]

Zebutol... Wow.

Now THAT takes me back, and I've got more than a few stories.

As good as the real version of Zeb was back in those days (and believe me it has not legitimately existed since the days we carried it), this new Leuzea based Kre-Anabolyn is light years beyond it in real science and standards thereof. We are VERY proud of this one, I must say.

I was alerted to this thread, visited, and just had to comment re the Zeb mention. I used to participate here, but haven't for years. It was enjoyable, but I remember someone endlessly flaming us over some cheap-O protein they liked and ignorantly calling ours (which isn't the cheapest, and for good reason) a con after he was repeatedly shown valid, compelling scientific proof of his... errrrr, ignorance. Anyway, I don't suffer fools gladly, lol.

Oh, by the way, you'll find more on the formula breakdown/background in the Q&A on our site. It is 320mg of the Leuzea ECDY, L-Dopa and 4-Hydroxy on top of 500mg Kre-Alkalyn per cap. I'm not going to hard sell it here, but if you are interested just check out the Q&A and you'll see the science behind it.

We were the very first firm to distribute Kre-Alkalyn, by the way.

Nice to finally check out one of the mentions of us again and post personally. The last time I was compelled to do so was when we introduced Nitro AKG a few years ago. I will state that we have never brought out new items every few months... and there is a reason for that being the case.

My best to everyone reading this!

[Mixelflick]

Good to see company owners visiting/educating on how best to use product.

Do I use this with a higher carb or higher protein diet? What is the primary mode of action? I guess what i'm really asking is, how do I best use it to get maximum results?

[John Drake]

Good to see company owners visiting/educating on how best to use product.

Do I use this with a higher carb or higher protein diet? What is the primary mode of action? I guess what i'm really asking is, how do I best use it to get maximum results?

Generally speaking, high protein is the way to go.

However, this is not your typical stand-alone ECDY product and carbs DO play an interactive and significant role. There is more on this in the Q&A.

Overall, and given that the high protein base is covered, I would suggest doing what you have found to work best for you as far as diet, calories and style of training goes for whatever your particular goal may be. That is the true test of any supplement, and you have to give the trainer those allowances and respect their time in the trenches educating themselves as to what works best for their particular body.

With that in mind, on items such as this we strive to design them to be as versatile and as fail proof as possible. And again, there is more on this as well in the Q&A with a response to a question about using it for size verses cuts, etc.

Beyond sit down meals. I do think it is vital to consume a fast absorbing protein post training, no matter the goal, and that holds true especially with Kre-Anabolyn to get the most out of it. Our protein is top-shelf and made for this if I may say so, but just make sure you use one that gets assimilated fast no matter the brand.

The bottom line is; Skimp on protein at the table and post training and you might as well not bother too much with any other details past that, IMO.

Train hard, and train SMART!

[Garyboy]

Welcome to the board, John.

I remember ordering Zebutol years and years ago when it was all the rage. I'm pretty sure it was a cheap knock off because I really didn't get much out of it.Then again, back then my diet was deplorable and my training routine wasn't much better, so it was unlikely I would have gotten much out of the real deal anyways.

What exactly happend to Zebutol anyways? I totally forgot about it until reading your post.

One again, welcome to the board and I look forward to purchasing your Kre-Anabolyn in the near future. Looks very promising.

[John Drake]

Welcome to the board, John.

I remember ordering Zebutol years and years ago when it was all the rage. I'm pretty sure it was a cheap knock off because I really didn't get much out of it.Then again, back then my diet was deplorable and my training routine wasn't much better, so it was unlikely I would have gotten much out of the real deal anyways.

What exactly happend to Zebutol anyways? I totally forgot about it until reading your post.

One again, welcome to the board and I look forward to purchasing your Kre-Anabolyn in the near future. Looks very promising.

Thank you, Gary.

The only real Zebutol (Zoe Discoveries) that was distributed on a national level in the earlier net days came from either us or Labtech. Lots of local gyms had it too, but online and mail order we were the only two until towards the end of it's existence.

I'm not going to name names, but there came to be and probably still might exist some very cheap knock-offs that ruined the name. That, and even the legitimate Discoveries version started to vary widely in quality/potency batch to batch.

We simply could not abide by that kind of variance in the end and developed Adaptogen N at that time to replace it, holding ingredients and production to exceedingly high standards. I'm happy to say that it is more popular than ever today, even though we do not advertise in M&F and so forth anymore... you can't buy the kind of word-of-mouth praise it gets. Rob Van Dam has done a lot to promote it, too, and he legit loves it and is not paid to say so.

What style of training/diet are you currently into, Gary?

[mr_azz_84]

OP posting to other suppliments sites is not allowed, id be expecting a ban if i was you!

[Mixelflick]

Sorry about the infraction. I was not aware and will not do it again. Understand ignorance of the rules is no defense.. My intent was only to give reference/information to the product in question.

Again, my apologies.

[Garyboy]

What style of training/diet are you currently into, Gary?

Just basically training for size and strength right now. Following the 5x5 madcow protocol that focuses on the compound lifts.Have made good strength and pretty good size gain over the past 4 months. I'm currently at 193 at 8%bf while standing at 6'0. Would love to break the 200lbs barrier sometime soon.

Diet I try to eat as clean as possible, but because of my sky high metabolism, I don't shy away from the snacks as much I should.

Anyways, thanks for the detailed Zebutol answer and I'll be sure to come to you whenever I end up trying your Kre-Anabolyn or Adaptogen N.

[THEstudent]

Hey John I wish you much success with the product. I have a couple of questions; why do you feel the ecdy that is in the product is the best? I mean Thermolife says they have the purest most potent ecdy product(E-Bol)along with the added cyasterone(supposedly more anabolic than ecdy but not as anabolic as turkesterone,the most anabolic). Also, have you guys looked at 6-keto diosgenin(25R Spirostan-5a-diol-6-one-3-one) supposedly this compound was discovered by Syrov as well? It is claimed to have 67% of the anabolic potency of testosterone and less than 2% of the androgenic effects with a 33:1 anabolic/androgenic ratio. This is what is the metabolite of the compound in Anabolic Extreme's Mass-Fx. Anabolic Extreme claims 6-keto diosgenin has absorption and bioavailability issues so they went with a precursor type compound. Now Patrick Arnold says there is nothing to these ecdysteroids and 6-keto diosgenin. What is your take on all this?

[John Drake]

Hey guys,

I guess things have changed around here since the time when I was an active contributor. Interesting to be edited for what used to be required, that being, being above board.

Anyway, THE, there is actually some dios in the product by way of the 4-hydrox, but I don't think it plays a major role. All your other questions are answered on the Kre-Anabolyn Q&A. Real Leuzea 98% extract costs over 2k a kilo for good reason, is the nutshell answer. We don't have the only legit ecdy, but they are few and far between, and I think the science behind our array is tops.

Gary... I'm from the hardgainer school, myself. Sounds like you need more focus, more than anything. Set a goal, then set another, and then another!

Feel free to drop me a line, guys. Always happy to talk training, supps, diet.

Train hard & train SMART!

[Mixelflick]

I just received my order.

I've read all about ecdysterones, lueza, cyanotis vaga, pfaffia paniculata, pulparis vulgare and suma. It seems ecdysteroids can be obtained from a wide variety of plants, but only Rhaponticum Carthamoides has the positive studies done on humans. And it is an impressive list.

What I find interesting is the inclusion of Kre-Alkalyn/4-hydroxyisoleucine and of course, L-dopa. RC boosts creatine/carb storage all it's own. I wonder how much more muscle fullness will results from combining all 3/4?

The potency of extracts looks about as high as I've ever seen for these ingredients.

[NO HYPE]

From the Q&A section for Kre-Anabolyn....


"Leuzea Extract considerably increases the working capacity of tired skeletal muscles and increases their content of glycogen, ATP and Creatine Phosphate (Petrov et al. 1984)."


The same results CANNOT be displayed in creatine supplemented humans, as skeletal muscle PCr concentrations are at a maximum threshold.

[NO HYPE]

"In back-to-back studies with animals, the Leuzea Rhaponticum extract was superior to synthetic steroids like Dianabol at inducing endurance and muscle cell growth." (Syrov et al. 1976, 1992)"




I did not come to this conclusion. Care to elaborate?

Also, out of curiousity.... what is your take on the enlarged organs that followed a 7-day supplementation of Rhaponticum carthamoides (phytoecdysone-ecdysterone)?




1: Farmakol Toksikol. 1976 Nov-Dec;39(6):690-3.Links

"Anabolic activity of phytoecdysone-ecdysterone isolated from Rhaponticum carthamoides" (Willd.) Iljin][Article in Russian] Syrov VN, Kurmukov AG.

Introduction of phytiexdizone-exdisterone (0.5 mg/100 g) to rats for 7 days is shown to be attended by an accelerated body weight gain and also by a rising weight of the liver, heart, kidneys and musculus tibialis anterior. In these organs the total amount of protein increases. All of the above-stated changes are more marked when the substance is given to growing rats (70--80 g). In experiments on castrated sexually immature rats the androgenic action of exdisterone, unlike that of methandrostenolone, is not demonstrable. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...ubmed_RVDocSum



1: Eksp Klin Farmakol. 1997 May-Jun;60(3):41-4.Links

The results of experimental study of phytoecdysteroids as erythropoiesis stimulators in laboratory animals [Article in Russian] Syrov VN, Nasyrova SS, Khushbaktova ZA.

Phytoecdysteroids alpha-ecdysone, 2-desoxyecdysterone, ecdysterone, sileneoside A, and turkesterone isolated from Rhaponticum carthamoides (Willd.) IIjin, Silene brahuica Boiss and Ajuga turkestanica (Rgl.) Repeated administration of brig increased the content of erythrocytes and hemoglobin in the blood of intact rats. The most active of them--ecdysterone, sileneoside A, and, particularly turkesterone, cause also a marked effect on red blood regeneration in hemotoxic phenylhydrazine anemia. In its capacity for simulating erythropoiesis turkesterone resembles the well-known steroidal anabolic drug nerobol. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...ubmed_RVDocSum

[Mixelflick]

"Leuzea Extract considerably increases the working capacity of tired skeletal muscles and increases their content of glycogen, ATP and Creatine Phosphate (Petrov et al. 1984)."

The same results CANNOT be displayed in creatine supplemented humans, as skeletal muscle PCr concentrations are at a maximum threshold.

- I can see your point here, but question your conculusion that the same results can't be displayed in creatine supplemented humans. It may result in even greater ATP storage, given that RC does this all on it's own with no additional creatine. That tells me there may be a separate mechanism being used. That's speculation on my part though. Still, even if no more creatine is stored I'll take more glycogen in the muscle..

[Mixelflick]

"In back-to-back studies with animals, the Leuzea Rhaponticum extract was superior to synthetic steroids like Dianabol at inducing endurance and muscle cell growth." (Syrov et al. 1976, 1992)"

I did not come to this conclusion. Care to elaborate?


- The specific study referenced used rats who were pre-conditioned with and without swimming exercises. Dianabol produced anabolic effects only on rats with constant swimming exercises. The RC treated group displayed anabolic/endurance of mice both with and without swimming pre-conditioning. I believe in the real world, people blow up more on dianabol due to greater water retention within the muscle... something Dbol is famous/infamous for.




Also, out of curiousity.... what is your take on the enlarged organs that followed a 7-day supplementation of Rhaponticum carthamoides (phytoecdysone-ecdysterone)?




1: Farmakol Toksikol. 1976 Nov-Dec;39(6):690-3.Links

"Anabolic activity of phytoecdysone-ecdysterone isolated from Rhaponticum carthamoides" (Willd.) Iljin][Article in Russian] Syrov VN, Kurmukov AG.

Introduction of phytiexdizone-exdisterone (0.5 mg/100 g) to rats for 7 days is shown to be attended by an accelerated body weight gain and also by a rising weight of the liver, heart, kidneys and musculus tibialis anterior. In these organs the total amount of protein increases. All of the above-stated changes are more marked when the substance is given to growing rats (70--80 g). In experiments on castrated sexually immature rats the androgenic action of exdisterone, unlike that of methandrostenolone, is not demonstrable. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...ubmed_RVDocSum

- This tells me that all organs, not just skeletal muscle are benefiting from increased nutrient storage, likely due to the fact no androgen receptor binding is necessary. It also tells me that RC will beef up a wide variety of tissues yet does so without displaying any androgenic side effects. This is the bane of all steroids... scientists were never able to separate entirely the androgenic (bad) effects from the anabolic (good) effects. RC seems like a nice compromise.

1: Eksp Klin Farmakol. 1997 May-Jun;60(3):41-4.Links

The results of experimental study of phytoecdysteroids as erythropoiesis stimulators in laboratory animals [Article in Russian] Syrov VN, Nasyrova SS, Khushbaktova ZA.

Phytoecdysteroids alpha-ecdysone, 2-desoxyecdysterone, ecdysterone, sileneoside A, and turkesterone isolated from Rhaponticum carthamoides (Willd.) IIjin, Silene brahuica Boiss and Ajuga turkestanica (Rgl.) Repeated administration of brig increased the content of erythrocytes and hemoglobin in the blood of intact rats. The most active of them--ecdysterone, sileneoside A, and, particularly turkesterone, cause also a marked effect on red blood regeneration in hemotoxic phenylhydrazine anemia. In its capacity for simulating erythropoiesis turkesterone resembles the well-known steroidal anabolic drug nerobol. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...ubmed_RVDocSum

- This is the big effect I think many people miss with RC... a huge increase in erythrocyte and hemoglobin regeneration. For me, it hits on day 3. I observe a big increase in stamina, be it in between sets or just walking my dog up and down hills in the park - it's noticeable.

[Mixelflick]

One final note: I agree that "expectations" of ecdy products are oversold. Comparisons to dianabol are problematic insofar as lbs on the scale are concerned. Rather, that reference should point out that SOME of the benefits of Dianabol can be replicated by RC, but not the water/fluid retention inside the muscle.

All in all, I think the human studies on RC extract are most indicative of what it can do for you. A steady, although not dramatic increase in REAL muscle tissue, a slight reduction in bodyfat, a huge increase in intramuscluar energy compounds (ATP/Glycogen etc.) and a whole host of health benefits that go unseen (except in blood work). You want an eye opener, get some before/after bloodwork done while using this stuff. Nearly every bodily function is improved.

If you're smart, I think you take advantage of this in crafting your workout density. That is, you use Kre-Anabolyn's ability to stuff muscles full of more glycogen, ATP etc. and do more work in less time. Alternatively, you take advantage of the enhanced recovery to get in a greater number of productive sessions per month. I can tell you that coming off of M1T, this stuff is a Godsend.

[Mixelflick]

Yesterday was my first workout "on" using this product.

My weighted dips were up 5 reps from previous workout, 2 on the positive portion, 2 on the partials and 1 on negatives BUT I jumped 35lbs more on the negatives. These are all done back to back with no rest other than to load the additional 35lbs on the negatives.

Started 20 rep hip belt squats at 300lbs for 20, set of light pullover afterwards.

I use an abbreviated routine and space my workouts accordingly. One thing I noticed today: Quite a bit less DOMS.

[DRP7]

Also, out of curiousity.... what is your take on the enlarged organs that followed a 7-day supplementation of Rhaponticum carthamoides (phytoecdysone-ecdysterone)?




1: Farmakol Toksikol. 1976 Nov-Dec;39(6):690-3.Links

"Anabolic activity of phytoecdysone-ecdysterone isolated from Rhaponticum carthamoides" (Willd.) Iljin][Article in Russian] Syrov VN, Kurmukov AG.

Introduction of phytiexdizone-exdisterone (0.5 mg/100 g) to rats for 7 days is shown to be attended by an accelerated body weight gain and also by a rising weight of the liver, heart, kidneys and musculus tibialis anterior. In these organs the total amount of protein increases. All of the above-stated changes are more marked when the substance is given to growing rats (70--80 g). In experiments on castrated sexually immature rats the androgenic action of exdisterone, unlike that of methandrostenolone, is not demonstrable. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...ubmed_RVDocSum

- This tells me that all organs, not just skeletal muscle are benefiting from increased nutrient storage, likely due to the fact no androgen receptor binding is necessary. It also tells me that RC will beef up a wide variety of tissues yet does so without displaying any androgenic side effects. This is the bane of all steroids... scientists were never able to separate entirely the androgenic (bad) effects from the anabolic (good) effects. RC seems like a nice compromise.

AAS do usually cause muscles to grow. this is where the cardial hypertrophy comes from in steroid (ab)users.

however, AAS do usually not cause organs like kidneys / liver to grow.
I am not sure if an enlargement of these organs can be interpreted as "benefit".
If you compare the mid-section / abdominal section of pro-bopdybuilders 30 years ago (e.g. Arnold Schwarzenegger) with those of current bodybuilders (e.g. R. Coleman) you will see a huge difference: nowadays, many pro-bodybuilders have an extremely enlarged mid-section (very impressive: Dave Palumbo). IMO, this is because they are using not only AAS (like bb-ers 30 years ago) but almost every anabolic **** they can get - including huge amounts of hGH, IGF-1, insulin and others. It can reasonably be assumed that these non-AAS anabolics can lead to a massive hypertrophy/hyperplasia of abdominal organs, inlcuding the guts, liver and kidneys, which leads to the VERY unpleasent appearance of the midsection in modern bodybuilders.

Is this actually beneficial? I don't know! The function of these hypertrophic organs could potentially become affected by unphysioloigcal size (but does not necessarily need) and please remember that there is only limited space int he abdominal cavity. the organs will start to compress each other when growing too much.

My thoughts are absolutely speculative but I wanted just to throw into the discussion that an enlargement of all organs is not necessarily beneficial.

[NO HYPE]

AAS do usually cause muscles to grow. this is where the cardial hypertrophy comes from in steroid (ab)users.

however, AAS do usually not cause organs like kidneys / liver to grow.
I am not sure if an enlargement of these organs can be interpreted as "benefit".
If you compare the mid-section / abdominal section of pro-bopdybuilders 30 years ago (e.g. Arnold Schwarzenegger) with those of current bodybuilders (e.g. R. Coleman) you will see a huge difference: nowadays, many pro-bodybuilders have an extremely enlarged mid-section (very impressive: Dave Palumbo). IMO, this is because they are using not only AAS (like bb-ers 30 years ago) but almost every anabolic **** they can get - including huge amounts of hGH, IGF-1, insulin and others. It can reasonably be assumed that these non-AAS anabolics can lead to a massive hypertrophy/hyperplasia of abdominal organs, inlcuding the guts, liver and kidneys, which leads to the VERY unpleasent appearance of the midsection in modern bodybuilders.

Is this actually beneficial? I don't know! The function of these hypertrophic organs could potentially become affected by unphysioloigcal size (but does not necessarily need) and please remember that there is only limited space int he abdominal cavity. the organs will start to compress each other when growing too much.

My thoughts are absolutely speculative but I wanted just to throw into the discussion that an enlargement of all organs is not necessarily beneficial.

Thanks for the info Dr.P

[Mixelflick]

I agree with most of what you said Dr. P.

However, real world experience with ecdysterone based products hasn't shown any enlarged bellies.

[NO HYPE]

"Leuzea Extract considerably increases the working capacity of tired skeletal muscles and increases their content of glycogen, ATP and Creatine Phosphate (Petrov et al. 1984)."


In my opinion.... any claims of increasing intracellular PCr should be taken out of the Kre-Anabolyn product description.

The concentrations of glycogen, ATP, and PCr within skeletal muscle, are detrmined by substrate availability.... which again is at maximum threshold in creatine supplemented individuals.