Originally Posted by NO HYPE
O.K., are you guys familiar with my main critique on many studies that investigate the effects of a supplement on performance?
what I have always criticised (e.g. in the Baylor studies done on arachidonic acid and on ecdysterone) is that the two gropus (treatment and placebo group) are apparently not appropriately matched!
please look at the numbers in this study now!
Number of repetitions in pretest:
Ribose-Group: 24.5 +/- 7.6 repetitions
Placebo-Group: 34.1 +/- 8.6 repetitions
1-Rep-maximum (bench press) in pretest:
Ribose-Group: 114.1 +/- 13.6 kg
PLacebo-Group:129.6 +/- 14.2 kg
Please note that the subjects in the placebo-group had on average an 39% higher rep number and 13.6% higher 1-rep maximum strength than the subjects in the ribose-group.
I can't help myself, but the baseline performance appear to not have been equal in the both groups.
So, there is no wonder that the noob-group (=the ribose gropup, with the low baseline performance) will benefit relatively more (percentage-wise) from a 4-week training than the more advanced group.
again, look at the numbers:
The noob-group (ribose-group) increased on average by 4.8 reps while the placebo group increased on average by 4.1 reps. so, both groups gained the same number of repetitions after a 4-week training.
similar thing with the 1-Rep bench-press: The ribose-people increased by 3.6 kg while the placbo-people increased by 2.2 kg. the ribose people gained relatively more, but don't forget that they started from a different baseline.
I wonder what kind of freaky statistics they did when they claim that at baseline (=pretest) the groups did not differ in any measured parameter.
Come on, 40% more reps in the placebo group at baseline and no difference? This sounds more than fishy to me.
You all know: never trust a statistics that wasn't tweaked by yourself.
let me illustrate this a little bit what apparently happened in this study:
let's say Jay Cutler takes Placebo and I take Ribose. We both do a 4-week strength training. after these 4 weeks, I have increased my reps and 1-rep max by 30% (10%) and Jay Cutler increased his reps and 1-rep maximum by only 3% (1%). YAY!!! ribose works!!!!! Ahhhmmm..., well...?
Originally Posted by NO HYPE
so, again, no effects of ribose on performance!
and why is there an apparent contradiction between study 2 and 3 with regards to hypoxanthine levels? doesn't study 2 say that the after ribose hypoxanthine was lower than without ribose? and doesn't study three say that in the ribose group the hypoxanthine levels were higher?
Thread: D-Ribose is a Scam
08-25-2007, 09:12 AM #61
Last edited by Dr.P; 08-25-2007 at 10:25 AM.
08-26-2007, 04:19 PM #62
08-26-2007, 05:23 PM #63
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Not trying to get involved in this but as you can see there are a multitude of studies that support d-Ribose supplementation or show it not to be effective as well. This is the problem with the supplement industry and pubmed or the like, you see this same "problem" can be applied to A LOT of compounds/ingredients found in most supplements. The "problem" is for every 5 positive studies there are 5 negative studies and vica versa(sp?). If you look hard enough you can find both the good and the bad, its there in one form or another.[ANS Performance Representative]
Disclaimer: The above post is my PERSONAL OPINION and DOES NOT REPRESENT the official position of any company or entity. It DOES NOT constitute medical advice.
08-26-2007, 05:59 PM #64
I just wanted to note the previous abstracts were found via the cited studies within the non-peer reviewed, bioenergy study that was posted earlier, so it wouldn't surprise me to see flaws.
08-26-2007, 09:18 PM #65
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All I know is the best strength and power creatine/ATP products avail., NOS ETHER and SizeOn both contain some type of ribose.
I only ask one thing, can you guys please stop with the 3 day, 4 day, 1 week cycle training studies.
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08-27-2007, 12:02 AM #66
you and your products certainly belong to the most respected in this industry. I am sure that there was no intent in this thread to criticise your products that contain ribose, since a synergistic blend of different substances can potentially be more effective than the sum of its single ingredients.
so, critique on ribose is not necessarily a critique on your products.
IMO, the problem with d-ribose is actually that in humans only a small fraction of it actually enters the muscles because the largest part is being metabolised by the liver and converted to glucose. and you are right: studies done during a few days or 1 week do not necessarily reflect the effects of ribose over a few weeks or even months. I think we can all live with the statement that D-ribose (as single substance) requires more research.
In the meantime, I would suggest that everbody who actually is spending money on D-ribose should try to dissolve it in little water and hold it in his mouth cavity at least for a few minutes in order to allow for some buccal/subllingual absorption. even if only a fraction of it enters the bloodstream via this pathway it could potentially make a BIG difference with regards to the amount that actually will enter muscle cells since first-pass metabolisation is being avoided.
Last edited by Dr.P; 08-27-2007 at 02:14 AM.
08-27-2007, 05:12 AM #67
I have no idea what percentage of an oral dose, is actually converted to glucose, but it doesn't appear to undergo much first pass degradation.
From a clinical standpoint, I would think that if the oral delivery of ribose results in any significant depletion in bioavailability.... that an enterically-coated version would have been made available.
About 88% to 100% of an oral dose of D-ribose, up to 200 milligrams per kilogram per hour, is absorbed from the small intestine, from whence it is distributed to various tissues of the body, including cardiac muscle and skeletal muscle. Very little first-pass metabolism occurs in the liver. Following transport into cells, D-ribose is phosphorylated to D-ribose-5-phosphate. D-ribose-5-phosphate is metabolized via a number of pathways, including the pentose phosphate pathway and glycolytic pathway. Its metabolism is complex. It is also metabolized to PRPP, which is the precursor to purine nucleotides, as well as L-histidine and pyrimidine nucleotides. Those receiving very high doses of D-ribose excrete a small fraction of the administered dose unchanged in the urine.
INDICATIONS AND USAGE
D-ribose may have some protective effects in cardiac ischemia. Claims that it is an effective "energizer" and exercise-performance enhancer are not substantiated by credible evidence. D-ribose may also be beneficial in some rare genetic diseases, such as adenylosuccinase deficiency and myoadenylade deaminase deficiency.
In a study of 20 men (aged 45 to 69 years) with documented severe coronary artery disease and a history of angina induced by normal daily activities, 60 grams of ribose (in four doses of 15 grams each) were tested against placebo. Treated subjects exhibited improvement as measured electrocardiographically, and time to onset of moderate angina (during exercise testing) increased significantly in those ribose-treated subjects. There was no significant electrocardiograph improvement in the placebo group, and there was no significant difference between the groups in time to onset of moderate angina. The authors concluded: "In patients with CAD, administration of ribose by mouth for three days improved the heart's tolerance to ischemia. The presumed effects on cardiac energy metabolism offer new possibilities for adjunctive medical treatment of myocardial ischemia."
Claims that supplemental ribose is an energy booster and exercise/athletic-performance enhancer are unfounded. Studies sometimes cited in support of these claims fall far short of being substantiating. It has been shown that administration of ribose in patients with myoadenylate deaminase deficiency disease can reduce cramping and stiffness caused by exercise. On the other hand, in a double-blind, placebo-controlled crossover trial of ribose in McArdle's disease, 60 grams of ribose daily for seven days failed to improve exercise tolerance in these subjects. Finally, there is one case report of a patient with adenylosuccinate deficiency whose neurological symptoms (behavior and seizure frequency) improved with supplemental D-ribose.
CONTRAINDICATIONS, PRECAUTIONS, ADVERSE REACTIONS
Pregnant women and nursing mothers should avoid supplemental D-ribose.
Supplemental D-ribose may cause hypoglycemia and elevation in uric acid levels. Those with gout should avoid supplemental D-ribose, and those with elevated uric acid levels and hypoglycemics should exercise extreme caution in its use. Those with diabetes should also exercise extreme caution in its use. And those diabetics who decide to try D-ribose must be under a physician's supervision and have their blood glucose levels closely monitored and their antidiabetic medications appropriately adjusted, if necessary.
Reported adverse reactions include hypoglycemia, hyperuricemia, hyperuricosuria, diarrhea, nausea and headache.
Antidiabetic drugs: D-ribose may cause hypoglycemia. Diabetics who use D-ribose must have their blood glucose levels closely monitored and their antidiabetic medicines appropriately adjusted, if necessary.
No reports of overdosage.
DOSAGE AND ADMINISTRATION
No typical dosage. Most experimental studies with ribose used very high doses, usually about 60 grams daily. http://www.pdrhealth.com/drug_info/n...dri_0226.shtml
08-27-2007, 05:54 AM #68
possibly the term "first-pass-metabolism" was not correct. I don't know. the last two days I have read a lot of papers on ribose and i was under the impression that hepatic conversion to glucose may be a critical factor. nonetheless, d-ribose is being rapidly cleared from bloodstream, which has been linked to the failure of even extended doses of dribose to signficantly increase muscular nucleotide-synthesis.
Zarzeczny and co-workers (27) previously demonstrated that increasing perfusate ribose concentration from ~0 to ~5 mmol/l increased nucleotide synthesis rate in perfused rat skeletal muscles. Such a high plasma ribose concentration conceivably cannot be established in humans by oral ribose intake. First, the ribose intakes required would be beyond the limits of gastrointestinal tolerance. Second, because of the very rapid clearance of plasma ribose (19), it is very difficult to obtain high and stable plasma ribose levels by oral ribose ingestion. (32). In the present study, subjects ingested 4 g of ribose immediately before and after a 15-min intermittent exercise bout. Plasma ribose concentration measured 1 h after the last dose on average was <0.1 mmol/l, which is conceivably too low to significantly enhance muscle ribose uptake to stimulate purine nucleotide synthesis. We cannot exclude the possibility that substantially higher ribose intake rates than used here, if well tolerated, might enhance postexercise ATP recovery in humans. However, our findings provide strong evidence to suggest that the ribose doses used by athletes result in plasma ribose levels that are too low to allow for an ergogenic action. Our ribose administration regimen (4 doses at 4 g each) was even higher than that recommended for most, if not all, commercial ribose preparations.
It would be very interestign to know, where excess ribose goes to? to the liver? to other tissues? and what happens with excess ribose? what is its main metabolic fate?
If rapid clearance from blood stream (independent from first-pass metabolisation) hampers the ergogenic effects of ribose, then a time-released formulation or the administration of repeated smaller doses might be more helpful than single, large doses. ont he other hand, in the above mentioned study, they gave 4g of ribose 4 times per day to the study participants. and even this (=high dose + application over multiple times) didn't help.
09-21-2007, 11:40 PM #69
Forget the performance aspect for a minute. What about using ribose to treat chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, and aging symptoms?
If someone is already deficient in atp production, would this be an effective supplement under those conditions?
Has anyone heard of Corvalen from the above link?
A related book:
Last edited by Al Shades; 09-21-2007 at 11:48 PM.All real talk, all the time. 100% of my posts have the (srs) tag. I don't do BS and trolling.
Bodybuilding has been advanced through anecdotal knowledge ("broscience"). Studies are over-rated. Experienced BB'ers understand training far better than scientists.
I've always had the belief that if you want to be where somebody is, then do what they did...the real experts are the ones that are in the gym getting the job done. Those are the people that you need to listen to. – Dave Tate
11-21-2007, 11:27 PM #70
Man, if they are hinging the benefits of D-ribose on the fact that it may influence post-excercise ATP production/restoration, we already have a proven effective, dirt-cheap supplement on our hands: creatine monohydrate.[/QUOTE]
Again Cakedonkey, here is a link to your prefered source, Quackwatch.org on creatine monohydrate:
Last edited by BeastSports; 11-21-2007 at 11:29 PM.
11-21-2007, 11:31 PM #71
11-21-2007, 11:34 PM #72
Quoted from your source of published scientific studies:
There appears to be some potential for creatine supplementation. However, many questions remain. Are there any long-term harmful effects from supplementation? Is there a point where enhanced performance levels off from long-term supplement usage? What effect does "stacking" or taking two ergogenic aids simultaneously have on the body? What happens if you immediately stop taking the creatine supplement? Is the enhanced performance great enough to warrant the expense of the supplement? Until further research answers these questions, creatine is not recommended for the average athlete.
Again, thank you for bringing this site into light!!
11-21-2007, 11:38 PM #73
With each post you make, you bring your company even lower than it already is. Really, you are grasping at straws here...SAN Nutrition
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11-21-2007, 11:39 PM #74
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11-21-2007, 11:46 PM #75
11-22-2007, 12:54 AM #76
11-22-2007, 05:41 AM #77
11-22-2007, 05:54 AM #78"Like those in the valley behind us, most people stand in sight of the spiritual mountains all their lives and never enter them, being content to listen to others who have been there and thus avoid the hardships."
11-22-2007, 06:10 AM #79
Well, I'm not sure what my un-pubmed'd opinion is worth in this thread, but I like to think it's at least somewhat respected. Anyways, with that said, I stand by NOS Ether as an effective supplement. Since it has so many ingredients it's hard to say exactly which one in particular is the workhorse, so I'll digress. Suffice it to say, I've had moments of severely criticizing Diesel's products but can honestly say that, in practice and in theory, he makes some very good stuff.
Assuming ribose is useless, NOS Ether still imparts a strong impact on training capacity.
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02-22-2012, 05:27 PM #83
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07-12-2012, 05:03 PM #88
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d-ribose while not effective for the healthy - it does help those with heart failure
I am a family physician who has been practicing for 40 years (board-certified in the US and Australia). I am very familiar with d-ribose. I agree that this simple, inexpensive sugar has not been shown to help healthy athletes, there is substantial evidence that it helps those with congestive heart failure -particularly those who have diastolic dysfunction. I have prescribed this OTC med to multiple patients who have heart failure and have numerous individuals who have benefited from this sugar. I have tested such patients with B-type naturetic peptide (BNP), a very acurate marker from cardiac wall tension. I do a baseline level and then retest them 7-10 days later - 50+ % shown an improvement in BNP as well as subjective improvement.
So don't waste your money on d-ribose if you're healthy - but when you get to be my age and have heart failure, don't hesitate to use it.
Art Sands MD
Fort Collins, CO
07-13-2012, 10:56 AM #89
07-13-2012, 10:58 AM #90