^^^^^^^^^^^^^
WTF
spot on with everything, glad i didnt have to type all that sht
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08-23-2007, 03:20 PM #31
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08-23-2007, 03:24 PM #32
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08-23-2007, 03:33 PM #33
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08-23-2007, 03:35 PM #34
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08-23-2007, 03:35 PM #35POSITIVE 716251 from NEGATIVE 200,000
Lowerthefever, "All pro BBers are natural except Jay Cutler"
DiamondDelts, "Well you can please some of the people some of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time. Give a short, joking answer like dex and people will say you are unprofessional/ghetto. Give long, deep, analytical answers like kai and people say you are irritating/beating around the bush. You just can't win either way."
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08-23-2007, 03:54 PM #36
- Join Date: Aug 2007
- Location: Los Angeles, California, United States
- Age: 41
- Posts: 625
- Rep Power: 233
Sorry to say, but I disagree with most of what you had to say and agree alot with Al Shades. In theory, what you say makes sense but this is reality.
Taking steroids alone and sitting on your couch all day watching television won't get you built. Sure you'll build mass, fat mass, not to mention a plethora of uneccesary side effects and health problems. You HAVE to, *HAVE* to lift and push yourself even while taking AAS. I know a guy who wasn't even near his natural limit, took steroids, half-assed his way at the gym and still looked like every other fat American out there. On the other hand, I know a guy who took steroids, had the genetics of a twig and blew up 80 lbs of solid muscle in 4 years. Genetics is important, but they are not COMPLETE BARRIERS, you can overcome it.
As for the pros who you think have magical genetics that only they can achieve, I think you're wrong. He made a GREAT point about a 37% bf uncle who may have great delts but would never know otherwise since he doesn't work out. The only difference between pros and normal population is that they simply have elite will power and discipline. There could be someone who's got greater genetics than Coleman but we'd never know about it because that person probably doesn't work out.Last edited by GluteStrength; 08-23-2007 at 03:57 PM.
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08-23-2007, 03:58 PM #37
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08-23-2007, 03:59 PM #38
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08-23-2007, 04:13 PM #39
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08-23-2007, 04:23 PM #40
Hardly. You're either stimulating the targetted muscle or you aren't. If there was a way to add weight to the movement without shifting the stress to other muscle groups, I'm sure bodybuilders would have figured it out and would be doing that already. The weight they use in practice is the highest load they've been able to isolate the muscle with.
It isn't wrong. It's the plain and simple truth. What's wrong is the claim that you should listen to self-professed guru's because they know how to train better than the people whose profession it is.
No, there really aren't. Manipulate any number of factors you want but train once every other week. See how much good it does you. The relative importance of frequency is obvious. It is the #1, single-most important factor, period. Steroids drastically increase recovery ability, thus allowing for far greater frequency.
I think you're right about this. Hormones do, indeed, have these powerful effects. However, I think that what I said was fundamentally accurate - that steroids allow you to play harder, but they don't change the rules. Listen to this: There is more than one way to manipulate one's hormone levels. I'm doing it right now without taking any steroids or drugs. I eat animal fats to keep my test levels high (confirmed by blood tests), and I'm taking steps to reduce my elevated cortisol levels (also confirmed).
As far as the nuances of bodybuilding competition go, I never agreed with them in the first place. In fact, I've been a vocal critic of the extreme dieting undertaken in natural bodybuilding competitions. That's why I refer to them as "shrimp". Because they're tiny and it looks completely ridiculous. They should bulk before going on stage.
Most people are not genetic mutants. They fall within the norm of the bell curve. And I would, without hesitation, presuppose that this includes the majority of professional athletes. The term "genetic freak" is thrown around far too often. I've got some news for you: True "freaks" usually get put into the circus or the hospital - not on the playing field. Biology tells us that genetic mutations tend to be DISadvantageous to organisms more often than not.
Two ways this can be addressed:
1) First, if it's true, then why is it that some people who take steroids (and others who claim to know of such examples) claim to see no benefits? I see a double standard here. When we talk to our own, we tell them, "steroids are no substitute for proper nutrition and hard work - they aren't miracle pills". Then we turn around and tell outsiders the very opposite. Well, which is it?
2) The second way to address this is to point out the fact that a person doesn't have to be lifting weights in a gym to trigger muscular hypertrophy. You can gain mass lifting shopping bags and walking up stairs. Put a bed-ridden person on steroids and I doubt they'd gain anything.
Enlighten me. What else stimulates growth besides frequency and intensity (work/time)?
I don't quite buy the "natural genetic limit" concept. It's not exactly written in stone in anybody's physiology, is it? There's no real way to test for it, because it's a made-up concept. As I said, the only limit is one's recovery capacity, which is directly enhanced by steroids. But again, that's not fully quantifiable.
Are you a geneticist? Have you examined DNA samples from professional athletes in dozens of sports? Don't talk to me about "genetics" until you have. Genetics don't exist, in practical reality. The concept is a spook unless you happen to be a lab scientist.
Heh, heh...you must not have seen any those guys lately. Check the pics below.
And if you try to tell me something along the lines of, "they went off roids/stopped training/etc" I'll simply reply that the typical, semi-athletic person doesn't train seriously (if at all), doesn't take roids, and eats poorly. So there.Last edited by Al Shades; 11-23-2008 at 09:46 PM.
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08-23-2007, 04:27 PM #41
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08-23-2007, 04:28 PM #42
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08-23-2007, 04:44 PM #43
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08-23-2007, 04:46 PM #44
Dont go judging him so fast. If you read on his technique that he uses it is very possible to make the muscle grow. He says that if you can not flex the bicep as in a front double bicep with the same kind of contractile strength when doing bicep curls then you are using too much weight. Apparently he has found a way to make that workout strategy very intense and effective for himself.
Two years he walks the earth, no phone no pool, no pets, no cigarettes.
Ultimate Freedom. An Extremist. An aesthetic voyager who?s home is The Road. So now after two rambling years comes a final and greatest adventure: the climactic battle to kill the false being within, victoriously concludes a spiritual revolution. No longer to be poisoned by civilization he flees and walks alone upon the land to become Lost In The Wild.
-Alexander Supertramp May, 1992
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08-23-2007, 04:52 PM #45
Two more examples:
Jamie Eason and Valeria Waugaman
They went from completely-average looking women (physique-wise) to two of the most "gifted" female fitness models today.
How many hidden "genetic freaks" do YOU know?
Probably lots.
My serious advice to anyone who wants to pursue bodybuilding is to quit worrying about "genetics", train as often as you can, and when the time comes, get on some powerful supplements (steroids). If you have the dedication, you CAN look like the people in the magazines. They are just normal people with above-normal dedication.
"The harder I train, the better my "genetics" seem to get" - somebody else on this forum. Certainly true in my case.Last edited by Al Shades; 11-23-2008 at 09:46 PM.
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08-23-2007, 04:53 PM #46
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08-23-2007, 05:00 PM #47
If your intent is to show us these guys don't have exceptional genetics, it's failed. 1: Their muscle belly length (and shape) are unusually long. Thus greater potential for growth. 2: They're all still pretty muscular... letting oneself go fat or not being interested in being a mass monster all your life has no bearing on ones genetic potential. 3: Levrones pre-contest mass gains, Dillett and Wheelers lazy training.
Some skinny guys who you'd call an ectomorph have to potential to be 270lbs of muscular bodyweight, Many mesomorphs may not hit past 240. Modern lifestyle corrupts how you view somebody's 'natural' body.
And I'd wager the best in any sport are almost invariably genetically gifted.Interested in investing in militarizing poultry? Based in our Southernmost continent, no local taxes, no laws to worry about, guaranteed return! PM for further details
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08-23-2007, 05:04 PM #48
Really? Because to me his arms still look like his worst bodypart. & on the Olympia stage, his arms get crushed by Dexter, Victor, Ronnie, Jay, and everyone else in the top 10.
lol @ your user CP comment. Yea man I'm sure you'd kick my ass if I was down in your area. You douche.Founder of DPA Fitness & Author of The Weight Training Antidote.
My Free E-book - The Weight Training Antidote: http://dpafitness.com/the-weight-training-antidote
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08-23-2007, 05:06 PM #49
Everyone has the genetic potential to build muscle mass, unless theres a condition or disease that wont allow it, but not many people have the genetics to measure up to the top 10 bodybuilders in the world, unless they train extremely hard for a number of years. It depends also on the muscle skeletal and nervous system make up of the person to take all the years of punishment(training) and on top of that the various other enhancers ,GH , diuretics, etc, that would wear out the person over the years. If you see someone performing lighter reps at a gym, people tend to look down on them and mock them but if something works really well then why change it? If i was power lifting and then doing lighter weights then it would be stupid. Also people look real dumb when they try and lift big weights with ****ty form and you wonder who they are trying to impress because theres a gym full of guys laughing at them, so the pros aren't trying to impress anyone but the judges and win by training smart so they don't get injured and bail out of bodybuilding all together.
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08-23-2007, 09:34 PM #50
- Join Date: May 2006
- Location: Texas: swimming in a way that you can't detect...
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I think the look obtained by figure girls is pretty much obtainable by most women if they put everything together correctly. (diet, training,)
Yes, but they used to be much, much, MUCH, worse than they are now. So, obviously his training has worked for them. They are still behind, but not nearly as much as they used to be.
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08-23-2007, 09:39 PM #51
- Join Date: Sep 2005
- Location: Phoenix, Arizona, United States
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Russell Wilson, the first QB in NFL history to throw a game-winning interception.
"So you got fired again eh?" "Yeah, they always freak out when you leave the scene of an accident."
Spiders are like offensive linemen, the best ones do their job and you never notice them.
An obvious example of New Math.
"It was a 2% tax hike, dumbass. From 3% to 5%"-NRKF84
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08-23-2007, 11:04 PM #52
so why do barbell presses, DB presses, chinups, lat pulldowns, rows, squats, and deadlifts exist? They don't isolate any muscle in the least. Far from it.
Originally Posted by Al Shades
Originally Posted by Al Shades
Frequency is nowhere near the most important factor. How about intensity? Volume? Age? Conditioning?
Oh here's one, how about exercise selection? So it's' okay for me to do cable crossovers and leg extensions instead of bench presses and squats, eh? As long as I train often, it'll work? Wow! *slaps self in forehead* Why didn't I think of that?!?! All these bodybuilders all these years should be doing the pec dec 3x daily! Duh! It's so obvious now! :eyeroll:
Originally Posted by Al Shades
Originally Posted by Al Shades
Originally Posted by Al Shades
Originally Posted by Al Shades
Originally Posted by Al Shades
However, the "no miracle pills" argument is testament to the fact that if you want SERIOUS results, then you have to work your ass off for them. If you shoot a gram of test weekly, then why the **** would you waste it by sitting on your rump watching Family Guy reruns (well, good ab workout from laughing, but I digress)
Originally Posted by Al Shades
Originally Posted by Al Shades
*grunts and groans* RARRWRWWRRR!!! Yes! New PR! Balls to the wall bay-bee!! Yeah!
*high-fives his workout partner*
New PR with cable triceps kickbacks! Yep! 3 times per week, super hard workouts with these suckers and I'll have horseshoes in no time flat!
Originally Posted by Al Shades
Originally Posted by Al Shades
Originally Posted by Al Shades
So...what? They let themselves get out of shape so they look like ****. Duh?
What you are proposing is that if Joe Average goes on Paul Dillet's workout regimen and drug regimen and training regimen, that he'll look like Paul Dillet after <x> number of years? Or Flex Wheeler? Or Kevin Levrone?
Levrone trained 6 months out of the year. Dillet was notorious for being lazy as hell in the gym and barely breaking a sweat. Flex stated outright that he was so frequently lax with his diet.
Again, I know you're talking out your ass, as usual. I don't think you lift weights. I think you study the sport, but come here to troll.
Back to the subject...Toney Freeman kicks ass and I hope he comes in huge, shredded, and hard as nails and walks out with a Sandow. Go Toney!
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08-23-2007, 11:09 PM #53
oh for chrissakes, read what I wrote.
Tests have been done that demonstrate in untrained people who do no exercise, steroids add muscle and reduce fat. Obviously you aren't going to become the next Mr. O, but the point stands. STeroids stimulate muscle growth in and of themselves. In order to get anywhere, you have to bust your ass, of course. I never stated otherwise.
Originally Posted by GluteStrength
Originally Posted by GluteStrength
Originally Posted by GluteStrength
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08-23-2007, 11:21 PM #54
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08-23-2007, 11:29 PM #55
Your view is very inspiring -- I would love to think it primarily just took hard work and dedication, that it basically came down to how bad I wanted it; but it's hard to be that optimistic.
Plus, there just seem to be differences between people.
Some people are just inherently better at certain things than other people are: bodybuilding being no different than music, math, foreign languages and so on.
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08-23-2007, 11:31 PM #56
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08-24-2007, 09:39 AM #57
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08-24-2007, 09:48 AM #58
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08-24-2007, 09:53 AM #59
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08-24-2007, 10:10 AM #60
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