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  1. #1
    Registered User n4lb's Avatar
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    Over 60 and Using Creatine

    Does anyone know of any drawbacks using creatine when you are over 60 yrs. old? I have tried it in pill form but don't get any results. Don't know if it's the age or not taking enough. I take 6 pills one hour before workout but no difference that I can tell.

  2. #2
    Banned dbx's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by n4lb View Post
    Does anyone know of any drawbacks using creatine when you are over 60 yrs. old? I have tried it in pill form but don't get any results. Don't know if it's the age or not taking enough. I take 6 pills one hour before workout but no difference that I can tell.
    Pills aren't advised, as the "uptake" is said to be terrible. That may be your problem. Creatine mono is the best documented, cheapest form of creatine you can probably buy. And if you respond well (approx 25% of people do not respond at all to creatine), might be the way to go.

    However....since you are over 60...if you have any prostate issues, the extra amount of water that creatine mono stores in your body, may cause you to make several trips to the head at night. If not try it. If so, give CEE a try. Most people don't have any bloating issues from CEE. Good luck.

  3. #3
    Say sumthing nice or STFU LongnHard's Avatar
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    Question

    I am not aware of any drawbacks to taking creatine at any age. I didn't even know it came in pill form. How much is 6 pills and how long have you been taking it?
    I don't have washboard abs... I have smorgasbord abs!

  4. #4
    Registered User Carl123's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by n4lb View Post
    Does anyone know of any drawbacks using creatine when you are over 60 yrs. old? I have tried it in pill form but don't get any results. Don't know if it's the age or not taking enough. I take 6 pills one hour before workout but no difference that I can tell.
    Unfortunately according to currently available research, creatine is not effective in developing greater muscle composition or strength in men over 60.


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t=AbstractPlus

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t=AbstractPlus

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t=AbstractPlus

  5. #5
    Registered User Dutchman's Avatar
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    Don't pay any attention to the bunko reviews which say you can't do this or that. It' all recirculated bullbleep. My basic stack is creatine EE/L-Arginine/Beta-Alanine taken @ approx. 5gms/5gms/2.4gms about one hour after my pre-workout meal and a half hour to 45 mins before I workout. Yeah I know that the Beta-Alanine gives you the tingles within 20 mins of taking it but dang, it soon goes away and then works phenomenally well with the Creatine and Arginine to give me great recovery, strength increases and some size (about 3 lbs). Don't forget also that Creatine has finally been recognized as the best natural supplement to delay and/or stave off Parkinson's disease, a bane of us old farts. In fact, it is now in widespread testing under the National Institute of Health. So fear not, find the type of Creatine that works for you eg Monohydrate with its pre-loading, Ethyl Ester (my fav) etc and get cranking. Age is only a deterrent if you want it/let be so.
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  6. #6
    Love Thailand lukamar's Avatar
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    I use creatine and it works for me. I do find that the extra water retention makes me get up during the night but when I'm cycled off I get to sleep all night long...
    Often Lukamar your posts walk a fine line between sarcasm and humor, splashed with common sense and mastery of the obvious.

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  7. #7
    Registered User Carl123's Avatar
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    Dutchman: Don't pay any attention to the bunko reviews which say you can't do this or that. It' all recirculated bullbleep.

    Carl: Of course you have research that supports your statement above and proves that creatine produces greater muscle mass and strength development in men over 60. I would appreciate if you could provide us with this research.

    Dutchman: My basic stack is creatine EE/L-Arginine/Beta-Alanine taken @ approx. 5gms/5gms/2.4gms about one hour after my pre-workout meal and a half hour to 45 mins before I workout. Yeah I know that the Beta-Alanine gives you the tingles within 20 mins of taking it but dang, it soon goes away and then works phenomenally well with the Creatine and Arginine to give me great recovery, strength increases and some size (about 3 lbs).

    Carl: It is good to hear that you are making gains. However, how do we know that the "basic-stack" you are using is the basis for your positive results and not something else (ie, a new weight training routine, high protein diet, vitamins A-Z, etc)? In other words without controlling the variables it is not possible to state with 100% assurance that creatine is the basis for your stated results.

    Dutchman: Don't forget also that Creatine has finally been recognized as the best natural supplement to delay and/or stave off Parkinson's disease, a bane of us old farts.

    Carl: There is preliminary research demonstrating that creatine may slow down the progression of parkinsons. There are other supplements that are being reviewed as well. However, the focus of this thread is about the effectiveness of creatine for muscle and strength development for men over sixty, not parkinsons disease!

    Dutchman: In fact, it is now in widespread testing under the National Institute of Health. So fear not, find the type of Creatine that works for you eg Monohydrate with its pre-loading, Ethyl Ester (my fav) etc and get cranking. Age is only a deterrent if you want it/let be so.

    Carl: Please provide us with objective research that debunks the research studies I provided SPECIFICALLY relating to the effectiveness of creatine in developing more muscle and strength with men over sixty. It is great that you believe creatine is making a major difference in your muscular development and strength but this is anecdotal and is not generalizable to the majority of men over 60.
    Last edited by Carl123; 08-21-2007 at 08:41 AM.

  8. #8
    God's other Son Blacksmith's Avatar
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    Make sure your creatine is powder variety.
    Take it with a 50:50 mixture of grapejuice/grapefruit juice.
    Check the label to be sure your creatine has the creapure label.
    Never quit!

  9. #9
    Registered User jgreystoke's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Carl123 View Post
    Unfortunately according to currently available research, creatine is not effective in developing greater muscle composition or strength in men over 60.


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t=AbstractPlus

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t=AbstractPlus

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t=AbstractPlus
    Hi Carl.

    Very interesting, but the scientists didn't appear to know squat about strength training.

    I'll take them out of sequence:

    1. This lasted only 5 days, hardly time to notice a decent response to suplementation or training.

    3sets of 30reps with 1min rests is ridiculous for either size or strength. The intensity is necessarily far too low. The scientists obviously didn't know this.

    3. Some of the same problems. Come on, 5 sets of thirty with 1min rests might be appropriate for an actress who would commit suicide if she bulked up. Of course they got no mass or strength gain. Reduced fatigue, tho'. That would be useful if they actually did a strength/mass program.

    2. Now the prog that looks better designed, 'til we look closely. Huge problem:

    3 sets of 8 at 80%, 3 times per week. That's 72 reps at high intensity.............in each of 3 exercises.

    Too much of a good thing. That sort of thing can overtrain YOUNG athletes. How could anyone expect those athletes' GRANDPARENTS or GREAT GRANDPARENTS to thrive on this.

    To put this into perspective, look at the Smolov squat program, which is reckoned to be the most hardcore plateau busting torture any advanced or elite strength athlete ATTEMPTS.

    136 reps per week in the squat ONLY, if you are hardcore enough to do the 4 day week. Averaging only 68 reps per week for most mortals who do it twice per week.

    Intensity 70-85% to start. They take 5 minutes rest between sets, 'cos they damn well have to. They may do a skeleton program to maintain strength in a couple of other exercises. The athletes deload after 3weeks in the 4 day version, or 6 weeks in the 2 day version.

    These unfortunate people, were 67-80 years old, and I doubt there was an advanced or elite athlete among them, yet they had to endure the torture for over 7 weeks. Is anyone here surprised they didn't gain.

    I have a math background myself, but I'd say those white coats in the second study sound downright sadistic. I'd like to chain them to the squat rack in my home gym, and put them through the full Smolov.
    Last edited by jgreystoke; 08-21-2007 at 10:21 AM.
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  10. #10
    Love Thailand lukamar's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Carl123 View Post
    Carl: Please provide us with objective research that debunks the research studies I provided SPECIFICALLY relating to the effectiveness of creatine in developing more muscle and strength with men over sixty.

    Your own study stated...

    "These data suggest that acute oral Cr supplementation does not increase isometric strength and only produces small increases in isokinetic performance and body mass in men over the age of 60."

    Small increases in performance and body mass are fine with me.

    Your study is also only "Short Term" for 5 days. I don't know or have heard of anyone that supplements with creatine for 5 day cycles. The study you provided is flawed as the participants would not be fully loaded with 5 gr a day for 5 days. Possibly the persons conducting the study should have read the label instructions.

    To know for sure you would have to pre-load the creatine group and then do your study. You may get completely different numbers, they may be the same but the protocol of the supplement would be followed.
    Often Lukamar your posts walk a fine line between sarcasm and humor, splashed with common sense and mastery of the obvious.

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  11. #11
    Registered User domineaux's Avatar
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    I use EAS Phosphagen HP.

    It works, but you've gotta remember to take a lot of water when you're on it.

    I use it only when my recovery time betweens sets seem to get longer.

    I just get an overpowering feeling that I just don't have the energy for continuing to lift heavy in my workouts... and often I feel I want to drop off those last couple exercises... then I do creatine.

    So, I'm never on it for more than a couple weeks at a time. It helps a bunch and you sure get pumped with it. LOL

    I talked with my doc about it, and it was a not an issue.

    I do think you get up more at night, because I get dry mouth when I'm sleeping and doing creatine. I keep a water bottle beside the bed. Course... all that water intake also makes you whiz more.

    Good luck
    Last edited by domineaux; 08-21-2007 at 10:42 AM.
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  12. #12
    Registered User Carl123's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lukamar View Post
    Your own study stated...

    "These data suggest that acute oral Cr supplementation does not increase isometric strength and only produces small increases in isokinetic performance and body mass in men over the age of 60."

    Small increases in performance and body mass are fine with me.

    Your study is also only "Short Term" for 5 days. I don't know or have heard of anyone that supplements with creatine for 5 day cycles. The study you provided is flawed as the participants would not be fully loaded with 5 gr a day for 5 days. Possibly the persons conducting the study should have read the label instructions.

    To know for sure you would have to pre-load the creatine group and then do your study. You may get completely different numbers, they may be the same but the protocol of the supplement would be followed.
    Although the studies I presented may not be the last word regarding this topic currently there are no other peer reviewed research studies that conclusively demonstrate the efficacy of creatine with men over 60 in developing greater muscle mass and strength! The data I presented, which was extrapolated from the Natural Medicine Comprehensive Database, a compendium of peer reviewed research studies, is also reviewed for accuracy by a board of research oriented doctoral level pharmacologists and medical doctors and represents currently available data relating to this subject.

  13. #13
    Registered User jgreystoke's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Carl123 View Post
    Although the studies I presented may not be the last word regarding this topic currently there are no other peer reviewed research studies that conclusively demonstrate the efficacy of creatine with men over 60 in developing greater muscle mass and strength! The data I presented, which was extrapolated from the Natural Medicine Comprehensive Database, a compendium of peer reviewed research studies, is also reviewed for accuracy by a board of research oriented doctoral level pharmacologists and medical doctors and represents currently available data relating to this subject.
    Bottom line Carl, the studies you quoted are crap, for the reasons given.
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  14. #14
    Registered User Carl123's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jgreystoke View Post
    Bottom line Carl, the studies you quoted are crap, for the reasons given.
    jgreystoke, your assertion that the studies presented "are crap" does not negate the value of these studies but only proves that when one has no objective and substantive evidence to prove their contentions, they resort to name calling and put downs. SO if you have substantive facts or data that disproves these studies, other than your negative opinion, lets hear it. If not, have a good day!

  15. #15
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    Originally Posted by jgreystoke View Post
    Bottom line Carl, the studies you quoted are crap, for the reasons given.
    I agree with you. Sorry Carl, the BB Peer Review Team has reviewed the peer reviewed articles and decided they belong in the Craper. Works for me , works for my older clients, and works for the older guys that I know in the gym. That's scientific enough for me.
    Often Lukamar your posts walk a fine line between sarcasm and humor, splashed with common sense and mastery of the obvious.

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  16. #16
    Registered User Carl123's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lukamar View Post
    I agree with you. Sorry Carl, the BB Peer Review Team has reviewed the peer reviewed articles and decided they belong in the Craper. Works for me , works for my older clients, and works for the older guys that I know in the gym. That's scientific enough for me.
    Lukamar, great to learn of your anecdotal experiences with your older clients and the older guys in your gym. However, I have found it has not worked for me and a number of "older guys" in my gym. And this my friend is why your experiences regarding the efficacy of creatine for older men can not be generalized to the majority of men over 60 on this forum because in fact it has not generally been found to be effective. Sorry Lukamar, there is a purpose for scientific research that cannot be substituted by anecdotal experiences or the opinions of an unscientific "peer Review Team".
    Last edited by Carl123; 08-21-2007 at 08:14 PM.

  17. #17
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    Well Carl.... If you and I and your old guys and my old guys all use creatine and your group doesn't do well and my group does. That would lead me to ask the question, why do you bother to use it then?

    It's probably the inferior water in your locality. Here on the pristine Sunshine Coast of lower BC we have exceptionally pure clean clear water so that's got to be it. Probably creatine doesn't go well with the off gassed bisphenol-A and antimony toxified bottled water used by your group. Maybe you can get someone to do a study on that...
    Often Lukamar your posts walk a fine line between sarcasm and humor, splashed with common sense and mastery of the obvious.

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  18. #18
    Registered User Carl123's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=lukamar;71495663]Well Carl.... If you and I and your old guys and my old guys all use creatine and your group doesn't do well and my group does. That would lead me to ask the question, why do you bother to use it then?

    Carl: I DON'T!

    lukamar: It's probably the inferior water in your locality. Here on the pristine Sunshine Coast of lower BC we have exceptionally pure clean clear water so that's got to be it. Probably creatine doesn't go well with the off gassed bisphenol-A and antimony toxified bottled water used by your group. Maybe you can get someone to do a study on that.

    Carl: In fact I will and because you proposed this study I will include you in it!

  19. #19
    Love Thailand lukamar's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Carl123 View Post
    [ In fact I will and because you proposed this study I will include you in it!
    Please.... Take all the credit, I don't want any of it...
    Often Lukamar your posts walk a fine line between sarcasm and humor, splashed with common sense and mastery of the obvious.

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  20. #20
    Registered User Carl123's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lukamar View Post
    Please.... Take all the credit, I don't want any of it...
    Absolutely not! I insist.

  21. #21
    Registered User jgreystoke's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Carl123 View Post
    jgreystoke, your assertion that the studies presented "are crap" does not negate the value of these studies but only proves that when one has no objective and substantive evidence to prove their contentions, they resort to name calling and put downs. SO if you have substantive facts or data that disproves these studies, other than your negative opinion, lets hear it. If not, have a good day!
    That's not name calling.

    The studies were so flawed, for the reasons CLEARLY outlined, as to be worthless.

    Either:

    1.You didn't read the links with any critical judgement. Just went straight to the conclusions, and accepted them.

    2.You think the protocols used are acceptable for building mass and strength. You are in the wrong site, or you should be looking for advice on the basics.

    3.You know the links are worthless, but you like stirring things up, instead of helping the thread.
    Last edited by jgreystoke; 08-22-2007 at 08:47 AM.
    Old Man Strength:

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=148519323&page=16

    Novices:

    http://articles.elitefts.com/training-articles/the-young-skinny-training-with-add-guy%E2%80%99s-guide-to-gaining-mass-and-strength/

    Beyond novice:

    Jim Wendler's 5 3 1(has bodybuilding templates)

  22. #22
    Registered User WizardGlick's Avatar
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    As a side issue on the attacks on Carl123 , here's something I found that might be helpful:

    http://www.creatinemonohydrate.net/c...e_elderly.html

  23. #23
    Registered User jgreystoke's Avatar
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    Gee thanks chuck.

    People pay me to do mathematics, so I'll take the mental benefits as a fantastic bonus!
    Old Man Strength:

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=148519323&page=16

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    Jim Wendler's 5 3 1(has bodybuilding templates)

  24. #24
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    Just so you know I'm here for ya, buddy!

  25. #25
    Registered User Carl123's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by chuckg1961 View Post
    As a side issue on the attacks on Carl123 , here's something I found that might be helpful:

    http://www.creatinemonohydrate.net/c...e_elderly.html
    Unfortunately Chucky, the article you present is not stating undisputed facts regarding the benefits of creatine for the elderly BUT speaks of "POSSIBLE benefits....." and "POTENTIAL benefits...." and "MAY also help...", obviously implying that the findings have not been proven or established as fact! So prior to anyone over 60, especially those with medical problems, rushing to use creatine to prevent senescence, to grow hair or to develop the physique of Sergio Oliva, they would be wise to first consult with their physician.
    Last edited by Carl123; 08-23-2007 at 06:27 PM.

  26. #26
    Registered User Carl123's Avatar
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    jgreystoke: That's not name calling. The studies were so flawed, for the reasons CLEARLY outlined, as to be worthless.

    Carl: ALL research studies have "flaws" (limitations) but that does not make them entirely worthless. Unless of course you have studies of your own, even with "flaws", that proves that creatine is effective for muscle and strength development for the vast majority of BBs over 60. It is very easy to negate other's studies in their entirety. However, what credible research, data or evidence, other than your sage opinion, can you provide us that will demonstrate the effectiveness of creatine as you are claiming? We are waiting!

    jgreystoke:Either: 1.You didn't read the links with any critical judgement. Just went straight to the conclusions, and accepted them.

    Carl: Enough with the personalizing and denigrating comments. Such ploys are used by individuals who cannot prove their position with substantive evidence and attempt to distract from the fact that they cannot prove their contention. Yes, I read the studies and realized they were not the last word on this subject. However, unless you can provide random, well designed studies, not your opinion, that demonstrates the effectiveness of creatine with the population we are discussing, you are merely expressing your perspective, nothing more, nothing less.

    jgreystoke2.You think the protocols used are acceptable for building mass and strength. You are in the wrong site, or you should be looking for advice on the basics.

    Carl: We know that you are an armchair mathematical scholar. You told us this repetitively. However, stick to the issue my friend instead of focusing on your erroneous speculations regarding my motives.You still have not provided ANY objective substantive data, evidence or research that provides posters with conclusive proof, not your beliefs, that creatine does what you purport it does. We're waiting!

    jgreystoke: 3.You know the links are worthless, but you like stirring things up, instead of helping the thread.

    Carl: Enough with your personalizing distractions due to your inability to provide ANY objective and credible research data that supports your position regarding the general muscle and strength development benefits of creatine for those over 60. You have attacked and utterly deprecated several peer reviewed research studies that I presented (which by the way have also been reviewed and accepted as being valid by a board of doctoral level research Pharmacological scientists and Medical Doctors from a highly credible alternative medical research organization, the Natural Medicine Comprehensive Database. This database is often quoted in the clinical studies conducted by the National Institute of Health-NIH.) BUT expect posters to accept YOUR perspective (without one research study to support your position) as the last word! Just a little, little, little grandiose, would'nt you say? So yes the studies I presented are obviously not the last word on this subject and hopefully further research will be conducted to clarify the role, if any that this supplement plays in the muscle and strength development of men over 60. In the meanwhile, either stick to the topic and support your perspectives with credible evidence or cease "stirring things up".
    Last edited by Carl123; 08-23-2007 at 07:38 PM.

  27. #27
    Registered User StartinOver-68's Avatar
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    If I may, I will interject a fact that has relevency here.
    Creatine is known to NOT work for some people at any age, so why the discussion of anyone beyond the age of 60?
    I had tried creatine for the first time in my life about 7 months ago and I did feel a fullness in my muscles. The downside was that there was no way I could drink all the water that was necessary. I might add that I did not get any kind of an energy boost on creatine.

    It is simply what works for some will not work for others reguardless of what some studies say.

  28. #28
    I love bacon..... Wayne Evans's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by StartinOver-68 View Post
    If I may, I will interject a fact that has relevency here.
    Creatine is known to NOT work for some people at any age, so why the discussion of anyone beyond the age of 60?
    I had tried creatine for the first time in my life about 7 months ago and I did feel a fullness in my muscles. The downside was that there was no way I could drink all the water that was necessary. I might add that I did not get any kind of an energy boost on creatine.

    It is simply what works for some will not work for others reguardless of what some studies say.
    I'll offer my limited experience.
    After about six months of wt. training I bought some and took it for about a year off and on as I continued to read the on going debating about it's efficacy.
    I did notice a 'fullness' as SO-68 affirms.
    I've not taken any since the last tub ran out about six months ago.
    As much as I did notice a difference I just came to the conclusion that I didn't really 'need' it.
    The way I see it now, eat clean, eat a lot, lift big and get big.
    The only supps I use are protein, glutamine.....and caffeine!
    I think I can do just as well in my efforts with the above only.
    This 'creatine' subject seems to boil down to a lot of subjectivety aimed at one's personal, specific goals.

    A great workout to all.
    Last edited by Wayne Evans; 08-23-2007 at 04:42 PM.
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  29. #29
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    Originally Posted by dbx View Post
    ...If so, give CEE a try. Most people don't have any bloating issues from CEE. Good luck.
    The BB.com store sells 5 different brands of CEE at very reasonable prices.

  30. #30
    Registered User Carl123's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by StartinOver-68 View Post
    If I may, I will interject a fact that has relevency here.
    Creatine is known to NOT work for some people at any age, so why the discussion of anyone beyond the age of 60?
    I had tried creatine for the first time in my life about 7 months ago and I did feel a fullness in my muscles. The downside was that there was no way I could drink all the water that was necessary. I might add that I did not get any kind of an energy boost on creatine.

    It is simply what works for some will not work for others reguardless of what some studies say.
    Yes, what you say is fact. However, the poster who initiated this thread was inquiring specifically about the effectiveness of this supplement for BBs over 60. And the bottomline is that there is absolutely no objective peer reviewed clinical data available at this time that demonstrates its effectiveness with the majority of men over 60.

    BTW, as an anecdotal experience, I used various forms of creatine over the years without any effect. Three other regular older BBs in my gym (one who is 63 the other two over 65) have done the same without any noticeable impact either. That is why our individual experiences, positive or negative, cannot be generalized to ALL BBs and is the reason for undertaking random clinical research studies to discern the reality from the hype!
    Last edited by Carl123; 08-23-2007 at 06:17 PM.

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