Are One's Actions More Important Than One's Religion?

[MDogg]

Picture this impossible situation. There is no religion at all and the entire world is peaceful. Everyone genuinely cares about the well being of everyone else. Would any God, if such an entity exists, not be happy with this situation? Or does it need to be worshiped in certain ways to be satisfied?

Personally I would rather have more people who don't give two ****s about religion and are completly concerned with the well being of their fellow men as opposed to strictly religious folk who claim that good samaritans are sinful for not following specific rituals of their religion.

[ZaktheIllusion]

I agree 100%, religion CAN be a load of crap at times. I think the whole god fearing thing in America is a joke when we have priests raping little kids.

[SYRIANKID]

It's the other way around. Your deeds are worthless without belief and sincerity to God.

I mean you've basically described "Shirk" up there. Which is the WORST POSSIBLE SIN you can commit in Islam. It is associating anything in partnership with God in worship. That means doing "good" for: Humanism, Socialism, Communism, your self, some other philosophy or system, some idol, showing off to people, ANYTHING besides God alone.

God Almighty says: “I am in no need of partners. Whoever does a deed for the sake of others as well as me, I leave his deed for those others.”

God Almighty says:"I am most independent and free from needing associates. Whosoever does an act in which he joins other partners with Me, I shun him and his partners and become disgusted with him."

The Prophet (may the peace and blessings of God be upon him) said: "God does not look to your bodies and appearances, but He looks to your hearts."

The Prophet (may the peace and blessings of God be upon him) said: Deeds are a result only of the intentions of the actor, and an individual is rewarded only according to that which he intends. Therefore, whosoever has emigrated for the sake of God and His messenger, then his emigration was for God and His messenger. Whosoever emigrated for the sake of worldly gain, or a woman to marry, then his emigration is for the sake of that which moved him to emigrate."

[Dave22reborn]

We've already seen what Godless societies are like, and it's not pretty. Communism eliminated religion, because religion is a threat to communism. What do these people think of on their death beds??

Communism preached about workers uniting, and helping out your fellow man, but it never happened.

[MushMouth]

We've already seen what Godless societies are like, and it's not pretty. Communism eliminated religion, because religion is a threat to communism. What do these people think of on their death beds??

Communism preached about workers uniting, and helping out your fellow man, but it never happened.

So if the Communists had believed in God that system would have worked?

And one could make a case that Communism is a form of secular religion, with the state replacing God as the ultimate source of authority. Dogmatic ideology -be it theistic or secular - has always been an impediment to civil society.

[bulletproofsoul]

It's the other way around. Your deeds are worthless without belief and sincerity to God...(continues)

I took the rest out to get to the point...sorry.

Christianity also teaches that works without faith are essentially meaningless and won't get one into heaven. Works are supposed to be "Christlike" and a manifestation of one's faith.

I don't agree with dave22reborn in that communism is proof that a godless society wouldn't work...per se. He is citing a totalitarian form of government, which is simply a political system that is miserable.

If one could create a hypothetical godless democratic society, the outcome might be very different...who can say?

It's an interesting question.

[Stinker]

Picture this impossible situation. There is no religion at all and the entire world is peaceful. Everyone genuinely cares about the well being of everyone else. Would any God, if such an entity exists, not be happy with this situation? Or does it need to be worshiped in certain ways to be satisfied?

Personally I would rather have more people who don't give two ****s about religion and are completly concerned with the well being of their fellow men as opposed to strictly religious folk who claim that good samaritans are sinful for not following specific rituals of their religion.

Very good point. I find SK's answer threatening. If the world were on the brink of peace Muslims would disrupt it because it is not Islamic peace? How much of a waste of time then is it to seek either peace or god or both.

[ajeh]

It's not interesting, the point isn't if an athiest is a good person is he going to heaven, the question posed was

Picture this impossible situation. There is no religion at all and the entire world is peaceful. Everyone genuinely cares about the well being of everyone else. Would any God, if such an entity exists, not be happy with this situation?

So don't bring religion into this.

I personally would hope it would work out, Religion is one way that people try to seperate themselves from one another. No religion would take away one of those barriers we have made. And the thought of dying would hopefully make people strive to be better in this life as it is all you have.

Think about it, Islamic extremists have no problem in blowing stuff up as they believe that they will be rewarded in Heaven, if there was no such thoughts in people heads I would hope they would attempt to make this world better not just for them but for future generations.

And of you ever read a book called the Giver? It's not a literary masterpiece but we had to read it in school and I think it describes this kind of world. Slightly more dark then I think it would be, but it does a good job of it.

I wont say anything about religion killing more people then anything else because that is plainly untrue, however it is responsible for breeding hate, and luckily for us 99% of the world is too cowardly to do anything about that, so we all hate each other but put up with it.

And lastly I would hope any god if he existed would be happy, sure they aren't worshipping him, but they are living a good life, just because they don't pray 12 times a day and eat pork or don't stay a virgin till marriage doesn't mean he should hate them.

[mariners216]

Are One's Actions More Important Than One's Religion?

Of course.

[Ruhanv]

Look at it this way:

Does a hungry child care about your motivation for feeding him? Of course not.

Deeds matter in and of themselves. Why we do it matters to us and make us the people that we are. The motive define us but it does not distract from the value of the deed.

Any god which would reject a world where only good is done but it non-religious, does not deserve to be worshipped for he is an egotistical megalomaniac.

[XceptionalLogic]

It's not interesting, the point isn't if an athiest is a good person is he going to heaven, the question posed was

Picture this impossible situation. There is no religion at all and the entire world is peaceful. Everyone genuinely cares about the well being of everyone else. Would any God, if such an entity exists, not be happy with this situation?

So don't bring religion into this.

I personally would hope it would work out, Religion is one way that people try to seperate themselves from one another. No religion would take away one of those barriers we have made. And the thought of dying would hopefully make people strive to be better in this life as it is all you have.

Think about it, Islamic extremists have no problem in blowing stuff up as they believe that they will be rewarded in Heaven, if there was no such thoughts in people heads I would hope they would attempt to make this world better not just for them but for future generations.

And of you ever read a book called the Giver? It's not a literary masterpiece but we had to read it in school and I think it describes this kind of world. Slightly more dark then I think it would be, but it does a good job of it.

I wont say anything about religion killing more people then anything else because that is plainly untrue, however it is responsible for breeding hate, and luckily for us 99% of the world is too cowardly to do anything about that, so we all hate each other but put up with it.

And lastly I would hope any god if he existed would be happy, sure they aren't worshipping him, but they are living a good life, just because they don't pray 12 times a day and eat pork or don't stay a virgin till marriage doesn't mean he should hate them.

how can we not bring religion into this when you mention God and religion itself in your post?

[JBDW]

Picture this impossible situation. There is no religion at all and the entire world is peaceful. Everyone genuinely cares about the well being of everyone else. Would any God, if such an entity exists, not be happy with this situation? Or does it need to be worshiped in certain ways to be satisfied?

Personally I would rather have more people who don't give two ****s about religion and are completly concerned with the well being of their fellow men as opposed to strictly religious folk who claim that good samaritans are sinful for not following specific rituals of their religion.

In my opinion, yes. If there exists genuine love without religion, I'd take that over a world with religion which is without love.

[BruTaL_FeUd]

When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad. That's my religion.

[zxcvnm]

It's not interesting, the point isn't if an athiest is a good person is he going to heaven, the question posed was

Picture this impossible situation. There is no religion at all and the entire world is peaceful. Everyone genuinely cares about the well being of everyone else. Would any God, if such an entity exists, not be happy with this situation?

So don't bring religion into this.

I personally would hope it would work out, Religion is one way that people try to seperate themselves from one another. No religion would take away one of those barriers we have made. And the thought of dying would hopefully make people strive to be better in this life as it is all you have.

Think about it, Islamic extremists have no problem in blowing stuff up as they believe that they will be rewarded in Heaven, if there was no such thoughts in people heads I would hope they would attempt to make this world better not just for them but for future generations.

And of you ever read a book called the Giver? It's not a literary masterpiece but we had to read it in school and I think it describes this kind of world. Slightly more dark then I think it would be, but it does a good job of it.

I wont say anything about religion killing more people then anything else because that is plainly untrue, however it is responsible for breeding hate, and luckily for us 99% of the world is too cowardly to do anything about that, so we all hate each other but put up with it.

And lastly I would hope any god if he existed would be happy, sure they aren't worshipping him, but they are living a good life, just because they don't pray 12 times a day and eat pork or don't stay a virgin till marriage doesn't mean he should hate them.

Ahhh...But it is in human nature to decieve and bring suffering to his fellowman for his own self-fish purpose. A society like that will never exist. Trust me, it will only get worst. Your theory sounds nice but in reality it is unachievable. If it happened and society became utopic, everyone working for the good of all but they weren't aware of God, I think God will still be happy. God does not reward those who speak but those who take action to do his will. God does not reward those who say "I believe in God and in my country. I will smite my enemy in the name of God....but I wont follow the other things like what Jesus taught on Mount Sermon and I will commit adultery etc." Neither will he reward those who commit all these traditions like going to Church every sunday but in their heart they do not seek God but worldly things.

Though authority of religion has been abused over and over again and distorted it has also brought happiness to many, remember that. Religion acts as a place to keep the masses in check. After all our basic justice and legal system is derived from the old Judaism Commandments.
And if you think about it, the reason there is so much violence behind religion is because of politics. All these terrorist attacks and wars in the name of religion really deep down were for political purposes. Most religions have noble causes in them. Remove religion, we still have to handle politics. People think that removing religion will solve all the world's problem and suddenly it will be become like Star Trek which is wrong.
Don't find fault in the religion, find fault in human greed.

[BruTaL_FeUd]

It would be better for god's reputation if he didn't exist.

[MDogg]

It's the other way around. Your deeds are worthless without belief and sincerity to God.

Tell that to starving children who get fed by non-muslims. I find it hard to believe that this situation has God infuriated. You honestly feel that that saving a starving child without believing in God is "worthless"?

I mean you've basically described "Shirk" up there. Which is the WORST POSSIBLE SIN you can commit in Islam. It is associating anything in partnership with God in worship. That means doing "good" for: Humanism, Socialism, Communism, your self, some other philosophy or system, some idol, showing off to people, ANYTHING besides God alone.

Doing good deeds for the good of others and not for God is the worst possible sin you can commit? Is God really that selfish that it considers any good deeds worthless if the deeds are not done in it's name?

I consider myself to be a pretty kind and loving person, I've been told on more than one occasion that I am to kind for my own good. I have a serious problem with anyone who claims I am living wrong because I am not following their religion, just as I am sure that they have a problem with people of other religions saying that they are living wrong.

[DanMc]

SK can you ever attempt to make a point and not quote the koran? Got a single thought that is your own?

I would say yes a persons actions are what they are judged by having religion hardly makes anyone person better than another. All walks of life do bad things. I would say having religion and knowing what you are doing is worse than not having a full understanding... sort of an ignorance is bliss idea. Yet that in no way excuses any wrong doings.

[bts327]

Picture this impossible situation. There is no religion at all and the entire world is peaceful. Everyone genuinely cares about the well being of everyone else. Would any God, if such an entity exists, not be happy with this situation? Or does it need to be worshiped in certain ways to be satisfied?

Personally I would rather have more people who don't give two ****s about religion and are completly concerned with the well being of their fellow men as opposed to strictly religious folk who claim that good samaritans are sinful for not following specific rituals of their religion.

I would suggest that it is those individuals who live in the world in which you speak who are geniuenly worshipping "god", whereas those who are singing and worshipping to a figment in their heads are engaging in a form of projected-self worship.

In my mind, to worship "god" is to worship his/her/it's temple. The body being the "temple of god." To worship and praise and take active part in one another is "godly" worship, whereas figmented idol worship is misguided.

These people would also be considered by many to be the truly religious. That is if we define religion as the manifestation of virtue in the face of action as opposed to self-seeking finality.


To sum up my position:

If you actively seek self-continuance via idol worship, your behavior is selfsih and immature, and your perception and ability to experiecne "god" is weak and underdeveloped, whereas if you walk the earth as a vessel of justice, acting independently virtuous not because it was taught, but because you are in-touch with your intuition, you are "godly" and religious.

It is those people in your example who you see as being non-religious who are in fact religious, and those who you see to be religious who are non-religious. At least according to my perception.

To answer the threads question:

It is ones actions that determines whether one is religious in the first place. To become "religious" to save ones self is not to be religious but to be selfish. To do something not because it helps ones own situation, but because one recognizes it is the thing to do, is to be religious.

[Paul121]

Picture this impossible situation. There is no religion at all and the entire world is peaceful. Everyone genuinely cares about the well being of everyone else. Would any God, if such an entity exists, not be happy with this situation? Or does it need to be worshiped in certain ways to be satisfied?

Personally I would rather have more people who don't give two ****s about religion and are completly concerned with the well being of their fellow men as opposed to strictly religious folk who claim that good samaritans are sinful for not following specific rituals of their religion.

I agree 100% also. I care more about what kind of a person you are rather than what name you call God by.

Excellent post. Reps for you.

[EAE]

Any god which would reject a world where only good is done but it non-religious, does not deserve to be worshipped for he is an egotistical megalomaniac.

I'm sure it's hard to be humble when you're the creator of all that is, was, and will ever be.

[Kane Fan]

It's the other way around. Your deeds are worthless without belief and sincerity to God.

The Prophet (may the peace and blessings of God be upon him) said: "God does not look to your bodies and appearances, but He looks to your hearts."

[/b]

that's just what he's saying
he's saying isn't it better for people to do soemthing because it is what is in their hearts, what they feel is right
and not as a way to score brownie points with 'God'or whatever name an individual would use

[Kane Fan]

I'm sure it's hard to be humble when you're the creator of all that is, was, and will ever be.

I could do it

[ajeh]

that's just what he's saying
he's saying isn't it better for people to do soemthing because it is what is in their hearts, what they feel is right
and not as a way to score brownie points with 'God'or whatever name an individual would use

I thought he also said that non believers goto hell, but the good non believers don't go all the way they goto the second level of hell not the seventh.

[ajeh]

how can we not bring religion into this when you mention God and religion itself in your post?

Well he posed the question of if the whole world was full of good people would god, if there was a god be happy even if he isn't getting worshipped?

Then people turned it into a if your a non believer you goto hell, that was completely off topic. I had hoped that this thread could get more on topic and not bring the going to hell part of being a non believer into it.

Picture this impossible situation. There is no religion at all and the entire world is peaceful. Everyone genuinely cares about the well being of everyone else. Would any God, if such an entity exists, not be happy with this situation? Or does it need to be worshiped in certain ways to be satisfied?

This was the question posed, and as it says Would any god, if such and entity exists So naturally to answer this question you need to flip flop and address both sides. Or atleast that is kinda what I hoped to get at, but I think I sidetracked myeslf. Sorry if I confused you.

[Heavily Armed]

Picture this impossible situation. There is no religion at all and the entire world is peaceful. Everyone genuinely cares about the well being of everyone else. Would any God, if such an entity exists, not be happy with this situation? Or does it need to be worshiped in certain ways to be satisfied?

Personally I would rather have more people who don't give two ****s about religion and are completly concerned with the well being of their fellow men as opposed to strictly religious folk who claim that good samaritans are sinful for not following specific rituals of their religion.

One's actions should be a reflection of one's religion. Your hypothetical situation is indeed an impossible one. While religious differences currently hold the headlines in the war department, there are diverse reasons for wars, past, present and future. Human greed, lust for power and control over others are chief amongst them. Ungodly evil. Saddam Hussein didn't attack Kuwait out of religious fervor, he attacked them over coveted oil reserves and port access to the gulf. Similiar motivations for Hitler, Stalin, Castro, Imperial Japan, etc. Greed, lust, power, these are not of God. They are of man, in defiance of God.

But to answer your question directly; we were created to love and worship God. Anything less, displeases God. A world without God's influence would be drastically worse than it is now. This sort of world, will happen.

[MDogg]

One's actions should be a reflection of one's religion. Your hypothetical situation is indeed an impossible one.

While religious differences currently hold the headlines in the war department, there are diverse reasons for wars, past, present and future. Human greed, lust for power and control over others are chief amongst them. Ungodly evil. Saddam Hussein didn't attack Kuwait out of religious fervor, he attacked them over coveted oil reserves and port access to the gulf. Similiar motivations for Hitler, Stalin, Castro, Imperial Japan, etc. Greed, lust, power, these are not of God. They are of man, in defiance of God.

But to answer your question directly; we were created to love and worship God. Anything less, displeases God. A world without God's influence would be drastically worse than it is now. This sort of world, will happen.

My hypothetical situation is impossible simply because there will always be religion. However it is possible for one to be a peaceful person who commits good deeds without being motivated by, or even having any belief in a God. Look at many buddhists for a quick example, they do not believe in God and they comprise what is probably the most peaceful religion on earth.

When I commit good acts it is not for the sake of God or for the sake of religion. It is for the sake of goodness itself. I cannot comprehend the idea that compassionate acts done by an atheist would anger any sort of God simply because they were not done in God's name; if this were the case then God would appear to be a jealous, power hungry entity who cares more about praise being brought to itself than the good of the world. I can consider the existence of God, but I cannot consider the existence of a God characterized by selfishness, one who would put the worship of itself above all other matters.

I have a hard time coming to terms with the fact that "we were created to love and worship God". Any possible God must have wisdom and power beyond anything a human mind can comprehend. The idea that such a God would create a bunch of humans who are mentally insignificant when compared to God, and that it would be generally concerned with the praise that they give it seems rediculous. IMO the best way to worship and praise God is to show love and compassion to all that it has created. This can, of course, be done by people of any religion and by those of no religion at all and I submit that good acts performed by ANYONE are of equal worth in God's eyes.

[SYRIANKID]

that's just what he's saying
he's saying isn't it better for people to do soemthing because it is what is in their hearts, what they feel is right
and not as a way to score brownie points with 'God'or whatever name an individual would use

But God tells you that anything done in this life for other than the intention to obey, please, worship, and adore God is in vain. This is the danger of false ideologies, because you can live your whole life dedicating it to anything BUT God, and nothing follows you to the grave but the life you lived for God alone, associating nothing in worship with Him.

But the Unbelievers, - their deeds are like a mirage in sandy deserts, which the man parched with thirst mistakes for water; until when he comes up to it, he finds it to be nothing: But he finds God (ever) with him, and God will pay him his account: and God is swift in taking account. (Qur'an 24:39)

[MushMouth]

Independence is my happiness, and I view things as they are, without regard to place or person; my country is the world, and my religion is to do good. - Thomas Paine, The Rights of Man, Part II.

This is, in my opinion, the only "religion" worth following.

[ajeh]

This is, in my opinion, the only "religion" worth following.

Good words to live by.

[Stinker]

This is, in my opinion, the only "religion" worth following.

Hold out your hand to recieve the reps I offer. Amen.

Edit: Recieve the reps I offer once I recharge. Amen.