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  1. #1
    Preparing My Return Khryz's Avatar
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    Don't take Taurine when dieting?

    I just copied and pasted this article from BB.com, Big Cat or whoever. I don't like the sound of this.

    --------------------------

    It has come to my attention that some people have been adding taurine to their diets to decrease cramping from clenbuterol or other beta-adrenergic agonists. Whether or not there is any merit to this, I really don't know. I haven't seen any data one way or the other. I assume there must be some truth to the rumour or people wouldn't be doing it. Then again...

    Regardless however, supplementing extra taurine during a diet is not advisable. It is indeed true that beta-adrenergic agonists like clenbuterol and ephedrine will reduce taurine levels, no question about it. But did anyone ever stop to think that maybe this has a reason? Your protein intake should stay the same, roughly, which means that these compounds are actively reducing taurine levels.

    If anyone had bothered to look these things up for a few seconds they would have known it is with good reason. Taurine may inhibit fat loss in different ways. First of all it will increase insulin sensitivity. I didn't even need to state that, it has been used in supplements with varying success for that exact same reason. If we know that many effective fat loss aids work primarily by lowering insulin resistance (Growth hormone, noradrenaline, etc), we already know this is not a bright idea.

    This lowers the threshold at which glycogen is stored again. This will increase chance of gaining fat during cheat days due to enhanced sensitivity of fat cells to insulin, and limit fat lost on dieting days since the extra stored glycogen will have to be burned again before you start burning fat again.

    This is however the least of your concerns. Taurine is also known to reduce Thyroid levels. Studies have demonstrated that a high platelet level of taurine will reduce T3:T4 ratio in men. This would slow down your metabolic rate, meaning you use less calories than you would otherwise. Obviously this will result in less fat lost for the same amount of calories eaten.

    Taurine may also reduce cAMP production in certain animals. The extrapolation in this case is a far fetch, but something I would like to see tested in humans. Since the cAMP acts as a second messenger in the process of lipolysis, the process of releasing fatty acids from their glycerol backbone, making them available for burning, this will reduce the amount of fat released and consequently the amount of fat burned.

    This all fits nicely into the picture that free form amino acids should not be frequently used on a diet. As with carbohydrates, quickly absorbed sources create higher peak levels that also decline faster. This almost always leads to a favourable situation for a lower metabolism.

    When dieting you will opt for carbohydrate sources that absorb slower, so they have less of an effect on factors influencing food intake. The same holds true for protein. You should opt for protein sources with a more anti-catabolic character, that release slower, such as casein.
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    Originally Posted by Khryz
    I just copied and pasted this article from BB.com, Big Cat or whoever. I don't like the sound of this.

    --------------------------

    It has come to my attention that some people have been adding taurine to their diets to decrease cramping from clenbuterol or other beta-adrenergic agonists. Whether or not there is any merit to this, I really don't know. I haven't seen any data one way or the other. I assume there must be some truth to the rumour or people wouldn't be doing it. Then again...

    Regardless however, supplementing extra taurine during a diet is not advisable. It is indeed true that beta-adrenergic agonists like clenbuterol and ephedrine will reduce taurine levels, no question about it. But did anyone ever stop to think that maybe this has a reason? Your protein intake should stay the same, roughly, which means that these compounds are actively reducing taurine levels.

    If anyone had bothered to look these things up for a few seconds they would have known it is with good reason. Taurine may inhibit fat loss in different ways. First of all it will increase insulin sensitivity. I didn't even need to state that, it has been used in supplements with varying success for that exact same reason. If we know that many effective fat loss aids work primarily by lowering insulin resistance (Growth hormone, noradrenaline, etc), we already know this is not a bright idea.

    This lowers the threshold at which glycogen is stored again. This will increase chance of gaining fat during cheat days due to enhanced sensitivity of fat cells to insulin, and limit fat lost on dieting days since the extra stored glycogen will have to be burned again before you start burning fat again.

    This is however the least of your concerns. Taurine is also known to reduce Thyroid levels. Studies have demonstrated that a high platelet level of taurine will reduce T3:T4 ratio in men. This would slow down your metabolic rate, meaning you use less calories than you would otherwise. Obviously this will result in less fat lost for the same amount of calories eaten.

    Taurine may also reduce cAMP production in certain animals. The extrapolation in this case is a far fetch, but something I would like to see tested in humans. Since the cAMP acts as a second messenger in the process of lipolysis, the process of releasing fatty acids from their glycerol backbone, making them available for burning, this will reduce the amount of fat released and consequently the amount of fat burned.

    This all fits nicely into the picture that free form amino acids should not be frequently used on a diet. As with carbohydrates, quickly absorbed sources create higher peak levels that also decline faster. This almost always leads to a favourable situation for a lower metabolism.

    When dieting you will opt for carbohydrate sources that absorb slower, so they have less of an effect on factors influencing food intake. The same holds true for protein. You should opt for protein sources with a more anti-catabolic character, that release slower, such as casein.

    I mostly use taurine while bulking as I read before about it's effect on insulin and thyroid. never used it while cutting and this has convinced me not to. so if you are bulking only it will help you.
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  3. #3
    Supplement Jester™ Lok7y's Avatar
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    Taurine may inhibit fat loss in different ways. First of all it will increase insulin sensitivity. I didn't even need to state that, it has been used in supplements with varying success for that exact same reason. If we know that many effective fat loss aids work primarily by lowering insulin resistance (Growth hormone, noradrenaline, etc), we already know this is not a bright idea.
    *Cringing at this one*. Drug-induced skeletal muscular insulin resistance (a la a symphathomimetic) is inherently amino-acid sparing and beneficial to a dieter, but insulin sensitivity is as well. Ideally you would want both (although rarely can you have your cake and eat it too with the body). But just because something acts as an insulin sensitizer doesn't make it detrimental to body-composition and dieting. If anything it will lower plasma glucose reactions to feedings, thereby keeping the glucagon:insulin ratio elevated to optimize HSL and systemic lipolysis.

    This lowers the threshold at which glycogen is stored again. This will increase chance of gaining fat during cheat days due to enhanced sensitivity of fat cells to insulin, and limit fat lost on dieting days since the extra stored glycogen will have to be burned again before you start burning fat again.
    This is patently incorrect. He has this dynamic skewed. Better insulin sensitivity means less insulin is required for optimal peripheral storage of glucose in target tissues (skeletal muscle). There is a large difference between skeletal muscular insulin sensitivity (which taurine affects as an osmolyte) and adipocyte insulin sensitivity. Plus this completely overlooks the effects of cell-size and cellular energy status in regards to leptin signaling, which is a glaring oversight IMHO.


    Taurine may also reduce cAMP production in certain animals. The extrapolation in this case is a far fetch, but something I would like to see tested in humans. Since the cAMP acts as a second messenger in the process of lipolysis, the process of releasing fatty acids from their glycerol backbone, making them available for burning, this will reduce the amount of fat released and consequently the amount of fat burned.
    Same idea. Dieting does not occur in a vacuum; you cannot merely look at the short term, and exalt 'short-term' systemic lipolysis. You have to look at the homeostatic imperative of the human body. Ultimately it's not norepinephrine or cAMP or even AMPk. It's ATP & Leptin that run ****, and it's not muscles or adipocytes that need dealing with, it's always the brain and the HPTA.


    This all fits nicely into the picture that free form amino acids should not be frequently used on a diet.
    I almost could not disagree more.
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  4. #4
    Preparing My Return Khryz's Avatar
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    Wow, thanks a lot for that post .. However I'm not really following you in what you said .. Can you put it in lamens terms? Lol. Would it be okay to take while cutting?
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  5. #5
    Supplement Jester™ Lok7y's Avatar
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    Yes, you can take taurine when dieting. Ideally I would take it around workouts, definitely with creatine, as well as with any other osmolytes (IP6, tri-methyl-glycine).

    Cell-swelling and cellular energy state is a large component to our Leptigen supplement line, the rationale being something like this

    "My attempt to simplify things as much as possible which will undoubtedly fail miserably and get really verbose and confusing":

    You diet, you decrease calories. Since there's not a lot of food, blood glucose and peripheral caloric byproducts amino acids, glucose, etc.) decrease. Insulin also decreases because your pancreatic beta cells get the sense that, since there's less food, less insulin is needed to store it. As a result, your cells, both fat and muscle, start to shrink. Cyclic adenosine monophosphate (cAMP) gets catalyzed inside cells, some kinase/enzymatic activity occurs, and TAGs (triglycerides) get hydrolized ("broken down") into glycerol and fatty acids. Your muscles oxidize these fatty acids (either in the peroxisomes or the mitochondria but this is kind of digressing...), and your "burning fat". This is good. More of this, means your fat cells shrink in size, since lipolysis is mobilizing all these formerly stored fat. In your muscle, the same thing is happening. Since your body has an energy deficit, cellular ATP stores are decreasing, less insulin means less nutrient entering, and your muscle cells shrink (especially if you are on something like an EC stack, because caffeine is an adenosine antagonist and a cellular diuretic).


    Okay, now you have to bear in mind this is only like "half the picture", since there's a lot of stuff going on in the brain that's interrelated to this, but I'll try to just cover this as sort of a seperate unit in and of itself (although it should not be thought of in this way).

    Anyways, cells (fat and muscle) shrink. The problem is, initially this is all fine and good on a diet. Long-term however, since leptin (which is a REALLY important hormone for dieters) signaling is mediated by a.) glucose signaling (short term) and b.) fat cell size and number (long-term), shrinking cells and a lack of ATP means leptin is going to start to drop.

    The problem is that, in the brain, leptin controls EVERYTHING. Too much cell-shrinking on a diet, leptin signaling drops, and levels of neuropeptide-Y (NPY) go up while output of other centrally controlled hormones: TRH (which downstream modulates thyroid output), GnRH (modulates sex-steroid synthesis, particularly testosterone), and LH (ditto) decreases. Your hypothalamary-pituary-thyroid-adrenal axis picks up on this because it's very well-connected to leptin. And since the HPTA & 'associates' control/modulate cellular metabolism in response to stress. Stess/exercise prompt various phsyiological responses: primarily NE & glutamate centrally, along with CRH, which downstream prompts ACTH, which--in piss-poor dieting conditions with low leptin--equates to increased glucocorticoid activity (from the adrenals).

    So, in the end: too much cell shrinking and lack of fed stimulus = leptin comes crashing down = your further abilities to mobilize and lose fat and maintain muscle come crashing down too because cortisol has skyrocketed, appetite is through the roof, fat-mobilization has come to a stand-still, and your thyroid is in the gutter along with your libido and your test levels. This is the perennial "dieting plateau".

    And taurine, as an osmolyte, promotes a little cell-swelling (particularly in muscle when used with things like creatine and other osmolytes as I indicated above), which--when dieting--is never entirely a bad thing.

    Sorry, I realize I just read through Webster's Dictionary to give you the definition of "cat," but I wanted to make it pretty clear why cellular energy status ultimately matters so much when cutting. It's cause you don't want to hit that weight loss plateau where your body is like "**** that; just go try and get leaner without me, cause I'm spent...".

    Cheers.
    Last edited by Lok7y; 02-19-2005 at 03:47 PM.
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  6. #6
    Registered User broken_heart's Avatar
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    Lok7y
    A personal question, what is your educational background??
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    Preparing My Return Khryz's Avatar
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    Alright. Thanks so much for helping me out!! I just ended an 8-10 week cycle of CEE. So now I'm taking 4 weeks off from CEE so my body doesn't become dependant on it (if that's even necessary), so should I wait until I go back on CEE to start Taurine? I'm also starting high volume/high reps not (was doing Max-OT for the past 2 months) so wouldn't Taurine help me with energy and pumps?

    Also one more thing since I got your attention .. but recently I was blood tested for allergic reactions and I'm highly allergic to Sesame Oil .. thus I believe I can't have your Sesathin right?
    I've still got a lot to learn.
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    Supplement Jester™ Lok7y's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by broken_heart
    Lok7y
    A personal question, what is your educational background??
    It's actually in progress right now. I am still an undergraduate and I still have an immense amount to learn about the human body ("understatement of the century," I know). I am currently studying at St. Edmund Hall (Oxford) in England (although I'm verymuch American).

    So essentially the background is still being built up at the moment. Nothing terribly impressive, a little academic 'bling-bling' thus far--little more. I have just always been fascinated with exercise science and physiology, and I seem to have a decent mind for it. Hanging out with Par a lot helps; the man just knows his ****.
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    Supplement Jester™ Lok7y's Avatar
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    Alright. Thanks so much for helping me out!! I just ended an 8-10 week cycle of CEE. So now I'm taking 4 weeks off from CEE so my body doesn't become dependant on it (if that's even necessary), so should I wait until I go back on CEE to start Taurine? I'm also starting high volume/high reps not (was doing Max-OT for the past 2 months) so wouldn't Taurine help me with energy and pumps?
    You could start using the taurine immediately. Just stay off the CEE if you wish for 2 weeks, then reintroduce it and use the two concurrently.

    Also one more thing since I got your attention .. but recently I was blood tested for allergic reactions and I'm highly allergic to Sesame Oil .. thus I believe I can't have your Sesathin right?
    Yes. If you are allergic to sesame oil there is a very good chance that you are allergic to Sesamin unforunately. Shame that. Definitely continue to take your fish oil though, as it will exert some of the same effects (albeit to a much weaker extent).
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    Originally Posted by Lok7y
    It's actually in progress right now. I am still an undergraduate and I still have an immense amount to learn about the human body ("understatement of the century," I know). I am currently studying at St. Edmund Hall (Oxford) in England (although I'm verymuch American).

    So essentially the background is still being built up at the moment. Nothing terribly impressive, a little academic 'bling-bling' thus far--little more. I have just always been fascinated with exercise science and physiology, and I seem to have a decent mind for it. Hanging out with Par a lot helps; the man just knows his ****.
    Major Props to you, you have a bright future
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    Originally Posted by zachattack43
    Major Props to you, you have a bright future

    I was actually hoping to burn out in a blaze of glory a la the "I am a golden god!"-scene in Almost Famous, but, yeah, I suppose there's nothing wrong with actually striving for a few legitimate career achievements.
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    Just 2 weeks is all I'll need off of CEE?
    I've still got a lot to learn.
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    Originally Posted by Lok7y
    It's actually in progress right now. I am still an undergraduate and I still have an immense amount to learn about the human body ("understatement of the century," I know). I am currently studying at St. Edmund Hall (Oxford) in England (although I'm verymuch American).

    So essentially the background is still being built up at the moment. Nothing terribly impressive, a little academic 'bling-bling' thus far--little more. I have just always been fascinated with exercise science and physiology, and I seem to have a decent mind for it. Hanging out with Par a lot helps; the man just knows his ****.
    It seems you are damn knowledgeable, bro
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    Originally Posted by Khryz
    Just 2 weeks is all I'll need off of CEE?

    Yeah. Def.
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    Originally Posted by Khryz
    I just copied and pasted this article from BB.com, Big Cat or whoever. I don't like the sound of this.

    --------------------------

    It has come to my attention that some people have been adding taurine to their diets to decrease cramping from clenbuterol or other beta-adrenergic agonists. Whether or not there is any merit to this, I really don't know. I haven't seen any data one way or the other. I assume there must be some truth to the rumour or people wouldn't be doing it. Then again...

    Regardless however, supplementing extra taurine during a diet is not advisable. It is indeed true that beta-adrenergic agonists like clenbuterol and ephedrine will reduce taurine levels, no question about it. But did anyone ever stop to think that maybe this has a reason? Your protein intake should stay the same, roughly, which means that these compounds are actively reducing taurine levels.

    If anyone had bothered to look these things up for a few seconds they would have known it is with good reason. Taurine may inhibit fat loss in different ways. First of all it will increase insulin sensitivity. I didn't even need to state that, it has been used in supplements with varying success for that exact same reason. If we know that many effective fat loss aids work primarily by lowering insulin resistance (Growth hormone, noradrenaline, etc), we already know this is not a bright idea.

    This lowers the threshold at which glycogen is stored again. This will increase chance of gaining fat during cheat days due to enhanced sensitivity of fat cells to insulin, and limit fat lost on dieting days since the extra stored glycogen will have to be burned again before you start burning fat again.

    This is however the least of your concerns. Taurine is also known to reduce Thyroid levels. Studies have demonstrated that a high platelet level of taurine will reduce T3:T4 ratio in men. This would slow down your metabolic rate, meaning you use less calories than you would otherwise. Obviously this will result in less fat lost for the same amount of calories eaten.

    Taurine may also reduce cAMP production in certain animals. The extrapolation in this case is a far fetch, but something I would like to see tested in humans. Since the cAMP acts as a second messenger in the process of lipolysis, the process of releasing fatty acids from their glycerol backbone, making them available for burning, this will reduce the amount of fat released and consequently the amount of fat burned.

    This all fits nicely into the picture that free form amino acids should not be frequently used on a diet. As with carbohydrates, quickly absorbed sources create higher peak levels that also decline faster. This almost always leads to a favourable situation for a lower metabolism.

    When dieting you will opt for carbohydrate sources that absorb slower, so they have less of an effect on factors influencing food intake. The same holds true for protein. You should opt for protein sources with a more anti-catabolic character, that release slower, such as casein.

    increasing insulin sensitivity usually makes you leaner... not more obese... so i'm not sold on that statement. However, I haven't researched the rest.
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  16. #16
    The Physique Architect str8flexed's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Lok7y
    *Cringing at this one*. Drug-induced skeletal muscular insulin resistance (a la a symphathomimetic) is inherently amino-acid sparing and beneficial to a dieter, but insulin sensitivity is as well. Ideally you would want both (although rarely can you have your cake and eat it too with the body). But just because something acts as an insulin sensitizer doesn't make it detrimental to body-composition and dieting. If anything it will lower plasma glucose reactions to feedings, thereby keeping the glucagon:insulin ratio elevated to optimize HSL and systemic lipolysis.



    This is patently incorrect. He has this dynamic skewed. Better insulin sensitivity means less insulin is required for optimal peripheral storage of glucose in target tissues (skeletal muscle). There is a large difference between skeletal muscular insulin sensitivity (which taurine affects as an osmolyte) and adipocyte insulin sensitivity. Plus this completely overlooks the effects of cell-size and cellular energy status in regards to leptin signaling, which is a glaring oversight IMHO.




    Same idea. Dieting does not occur in a vacuum; you cannot merely look at the short term, and exalt 'short-term' systemic lipolysis. You have to look at the homeostatic imperative of the human body. Ultimately it's not norepinephrine or cAMP or even AMPk. It's ATP & Leptin that run ****, and it's not muscles or adipocytes that need dealing with, it's always the brain and the HPTA.

    I agree with everything except that last statement. I'm not totally sold on that But yea... the idea that free forms shouldn't be used on a diet is not sound IMO
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  17. #17
    Performance Enhancer bigpump23's Avatar
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    my problem when I diet is that I flatten out and I believe my cortisol levels get too high. So How would one blunt this? supplement wise?
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    The Physique Architect str8flexed's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by bigpump23
    my problem when I diet is that I flatten out and I believe my cortisol levels get too high. So How would one blunt this? supplement wise?

    everyone tends to flatten out... it's just a consequence of dieting (cells shrink) since you are storing less glycogen. Creatine is your best bet to retain your fullness.
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