creatine uptake and sodium, more important than insulin?

[PowerSwede]

What i have found recently were claims that sodium is even more important for creatine uptake than insulin is (1), and that muscle creatine content peaks with high-normal sodium levels (2).

It would make sense since creatine and sodium are transported by the same transporters (called co-transport).

Since we sweat during our workout we lose sodium and since we drink a lot of water (before, during and in our post-workout drink) we dilute our blood electrolyte level, and since we take creatine post workout our sodium levels are not going to be optimal for creatine uptake.

I recently started adding some sodium to my post workout creatine drink, i'll report back what it does or doesn't do for me later.


1. Willot CA, Young ME, Leighton B, et al. Creatine uptake in isolated soleus muscle: kinetics and dependence on sodium, but not on insulin. Acta Physiol Scand. 1999;166:99-104.

2. Brault and Terjung, 2003

[kalagan]

i don't understand, because sodium retain water. So, to add sodium to your post workout shake will just make your body retain more water, no ??

I know that people who eat to much sodium have problem with "retention"

[Work]

Originally Posted by PowerSwede

What i have found recently were claims that sodium is even more important for creatine uptake than insulin is (1), and that muscle creatine content peaks with high-normal sodium levels (2).

It would make sense since creatine and sodium are transported by the same transporters (called co-transport).

Since we sweat during our workout we lose sodium and since we drink a lot of water (before, during and in our post-workout drink) we dilute our blood electrolyte level, and since we take creatine post workout our sodium levels are not going to be optimal for creatine uptake.

I recently started adding some sodium to my post workout creatine drink, i'll report back what it does or doesn't do for me later.


1. Willot CA, Young ME, Leighton B, et al. Creatine uptake in isolated soleus muscle: kinetics and dependence on sodium, but not on insulin. Acta Physiol Scand. 1999;166:99-104.

2. Brault and Terjung, 2003

If my memory serves me right there has been a lot of questioning by some of the experts on these boards over the last few years while looking at some of the new complex creatine formulas that keep coming out with all the new compounds. One of the things I recall was someone saying that many of them only raised sodium levels and wondering why they were in there.

[PowerSwede]

Originally Posted by kalagan

i don't understand, because sodium retain water. So, to add sodium to your post workout shake will just make your body retain more water, no ??

I know that people who eat to much sodium have problem with "retention"

No, if not for sodium you would have no creatine uptake at all, sodium affects the uptake of creatine in the muscles.

Basically, the studies have not measured water retention, rather the amount of creatine in the muscles.

[pu12en12g]

Awesome thread

Originally Posted by David J. Barr

Jack Up the Sodium

Another worthwhile way to improve creatine "efficiency" is to improve its uptake in muscles. While everything seems to have been tried already, the simplest method remains. Remember the creatine transporters we just discussed? Well we still don’t have the full picture on them: they transport not only creatine into the muscles, but sodium as well (this is called co-transport, i.e. 2 things at once). In fact, it is only because of the sodium that the creatine gets into the muscles at all!

In order to illustrate the importance of this, one study demonstrated that muscle creatine uptake was more dependent on sodium than insulin (Willott et al., 1999)! We all know how important insulin is for creatine uptake, so discovering the importance of sodium is an exciting find! This doesn’t mean that you should start loading tons of table salt into your post-workout drinks, but it means that you should be aware of the need for sodium for creatine uptake.

Another study went one step further and measured the amount of sodium needed for maximal creatine uptake in rats. Researchers once again found that sodium was more important than insulin, and muscle creatine content peaked with high-normal blood sodium levels (Brault and Terjung, 2003). Elevating blood sodium greater than high-normal concentration had no additional effect, but we already have the info we need to maximize creatine levels!

During a hard hour-long workout we can lose over a gram of sodium in our sweat alone! Now think about the fact that we can drink almost 3 liters of water in the hours surrounding our workout, with pre/post meals and the water we drink during the workout. This fluid intake dilutes our blood electrolytes, and coupled with the sweating, our sodium levels aren’t going to be at the optimal level for maximum creatine transport! One way to beat this problem is to throw a little sodium into your drink during your workout. Also, having a little table salt in your post workout drink will help ensure that you’re topped up and the creatine is flowing well.

As for what quantity to take, you don’t have to go nuts at all, but you need to be able to judge for yourself based on how much you sweat. Personally, I sweat a fair amount and used to use a quarter of a teaspoon during an hour-long workout. Now, having moved to Texas from Canada, I sweat my ass off all day long and have subsequently increased the total table salt quantity to 1/3-1/2 a teaspoon (about 150mg), depending on the workout. The best advice would be to start small and work up to see how it goes.

[PowerSwede]

Ttt

[Lok7y]

Trizzle.

It depends on body composition (sodium ****s things up for obese people; helps leaner people trying to gain mass), but yeah, sodium can certainly be anabolic. Salt + creatine + IP6 + H20 = crazy intracellular fluid retention in muscle back when I was experimenting with cell-volumizers last year.

Just bear in mind that excess sodium also depletes intracellular mineral concentrations (calcium being the key one you want to worry about).

[str8flexed]

Originally Posted by PowerSwede

What i have found recently were claims that sodium is even more important for creatine uptake than insulin is (1), and that muscle creatine content peaks with high-normal sodium levels (2).

It would make sense since creatine and sodium are transported by the same transporters (called co-transport).

Since we sweat during our workout we lose sodium and since we drink a lot of water (before, during and in our post-workout drink) we dilute our blood electrolyte level, and since we take creatine post workout our sodium levels are not going to be optimal for creatine uptake.

I recently started adding some sodium to my post workout creatine drink, i'll report back what it does or doesn't do for me later.


1. Willot CA, Young ME, Leighton B, et al. Creatine uptake in isolated soleus muscle: kinetics and dependence on sodium, but not on insulin. Acta Physiol Scand. 1999;166:99-104.

2. Brault and Terjung, 2003

it might be more important than insulin technically, but sodium availability will NEVER be a limiting factor for anyone consuming a western diet above 2000 kcals.

[PowerSwede]

Originally Posted by str8flexed

it might be more important than insulin technically, but sodium availability will NEVER be a limiting factor for anyone consuming a western diet above 2000 kcals.

I'd suggest that it can be for the reasons stated in my OP.

Today when more and more people are using mixed table salts or use little salt in their cooking it is quite possible to be low on sodium after sweating and diluting your electrolytes with gallons of water. This could be extra important since we (or at least i) take our creatine post workout. If you are anything like me and go for high intensity and short rest periods you will sweat a lot.

[PowerSwede]

Originally Posted by Lok7y

Trizzle.

It depends on body composition (sodium ****s things up for obese people; helps leaner people trying to gain mass), but yeah, sodium can certainly be anabolic. Salt + creatine + IP6 + H20 = crazy intracellular fluid retention in muscle back when I was experimenting with cell-volumizers last year.

Just bear in mind that excess sodium also depletes intracellular mineral concentrations (calcium being the key one you want to worry about).

My conclusion of the results of the studies was that it might be wise to peak sodium at the same time as you take your creatine but not increase daily sodium intake.

[str8flexed]

Originally Posted by PowerSwede

I'd suggest that it can be for the reasons stated in my OP.

Today when more and more people are using mixed table salts or use little salt in their cooking it is quite possible to be low on sodium after sweating and diluting your electrolytes with gallons of water. This could be extra important since we (or at least i) take our creatine post workout. If you are anything like me and go for high intensity and short rest periods you will sweat a lot.

even if you sweet alot your body has regulatory mechanisms to prevent losing too much sodium... if you eat a balanced diet, you get enough sodium. Maybe more would help a little, but there is no reason to dumb a gram of salt in anything

[PowerSwede]

Originally Posted by str8flexed

even if you sweet alot your body has regulatory mechanisms to prevent losing too much sodium... if you eat a balanced diet, you get enough sodium. Maybe more would help a little, but there is no reason to dumb a gram of salt in anything

You can lose a gram of salt from a heavy workout.

The point would be to spike sodium levels since creatine levels in the muscles were higher when sodium levels were higher.

As creatine transport is dependant on sodium (but not on insulin) it would seem quite foolish to take it when your sodium levels are the lowest (post workout).

1/3-1/2 teaspoon of sodium sounds like a good idea to me.

Now, i am well aware of the adverse effects of a too high intake of sodium, but as i wrote above, it is quite possible to increase the intake of sodium after workout without increasing the amount of sodium you ingest during one day as a whole.

Today it's been one week since i started adding sodium to my whey/dextrose/creatine shake and i have to say i feel a bit fuller but not more bloated, we'll see how the following weeks workouts are compared to last weeks.

[str8flexed]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree

[pu12en12g]

It's amazing that this thread sank to the bottom.. damn shame.

[pu12en12g]

Any updates PowerSwede ?

Originally Posted by kalagan

i don't understand, because sodium retain water. So, to add sodium to your post workout shake will just make your body retain more water, no ??

I know that people who eat to much sodium have problem with "retention"

Hypothetically, if that happened it would only be temporary.

[PETER-LEE]

NOw i'm starting from today mono+taurine+dextrose+ala and i will add some salt and i will se what will happen

[pu12en12g]

Creatine Uptake in Isolated Soleus Muscle:
Kinetics and Dependence on Sodium, but not on Insulin

C.A. WILLOTT, M.E. YOUNG, B. LEIGHTON, G.J. KEMP, E.A. BOEHM,
G.K. RADDA and K. CLARKE

Department of Biochemistry, University of Oxford, South Parks Road, Oxford, UK

ABSTRACT

The increased use of creatine by athletes as a dietary supplement to improve their physical performance assumes that increased serum creatine levels will increase intracellular skeletal muscle creatine. Despite this common assumption, skeletal muscle creatine uptake awaits full characterization. Consequently, we have investigated. C-labelled creatine uptake in isolated, incubated rat soleus (type 1) muscle preparations at 37° C. We found that the apparent Km for creatine uptake was 73 μM and the Vmax was 77nmol h gww. Creatine uptake was 82% inhibited by 2mM β-guanidinopropionic acid, the structural analogue of creatine. In addition, a decrease in buffer Na concentration, from 145 to 25mM, reduced the rate of C-labelled creatine uptake by 77%, indicating that uptake is largely Na dependent in soleus muscle. Insulin had no effect on the rate of creatine uptake in vitro. The total creatine content was 34% lower, but the rate of creatine uptake in the presence of 100 μM extracellular creatine was 45% higher, in soleus than in extensor digitorum longus (type II) muscle. However, at 1 mM extracellular creatine, the maximal rate of uptake was not significantly different for the two muscle types, implying that soleus muscle has a lower Km for creatine uptake. We suggest that intracellular creatine levels may play a role in the regulation of skeletal muscle creatine uptake.

FYI

[pu12en12g]

Combined creatine and sodium bicarbonate supplementation enhances interval swimming.

Mero AA , Keskinen KL , Malvela MT , Sallinen JM

J Strength Cond Res, 18(2): 306-10 2004

Abstract: This study examined the effect of simultaneous supplementation of creatine and sodium bicarbonate on consecutive maximal swims. Sixteen competitive male and female swimmers completed, in a randomized order, 2 different treatments (placebo and a combination of creatine and sodium bicarbonate) with 30 days of washout period between treatments in a double-blind crossover procedure. Both treatments consisted of placebo or creatine supplementation (20 g per day) in 6 days. In the morning of the seventh day, there was placebo or sodium bicarbonate supplementation (0.3 g per kg body weight) during 2 hours before a warm-up for 2 maximal 100-m freestyle swims that were performed with a passive recovery of 10 minutes in between. The first swims were similar, but the increase in time of the second versus the first 100-m swimming time was 0.9 seconds less (p < 0.05) in the combination group than in placebo. Mean blood pH was higher (p < 0.01-0.001) in the combination group than in placebo after supplementation on the test day. Mean blood pH decreased (p < 0.05) similarly during the swims in both groups. Mean blood lactate increased (p < 0.001) during the swims, but there were no differences in peak blood lactate between the combination group (14.9 +/- 0.9 mmol.L(-1)) and placebo (13.4 +/- 1.0 mmol.L(-1)). The data indicate that simultaneous supplementation of creatine and sodium bicarbonate enhances performance in consecutive maximal swims.

FYI

[str8flexed]

Originally Posted by pu12en12g

FYI

in vitro

[Scivation]

Originally Posted by str8flexed

in vitro

What if I add Glutamine?

[Cynical_Simian]

Really interesting thread. Thanks for bumping this, pu.

[thanatopsis]

Hmmm... could this be why when I used to mix my cell volumizer products with gatorade (which has some sodium) along with my workout I always felt stronger almost immediatly? I haven't done it in a while but maybe I should try again to see if I notice the same.

[dbish77]

Originally Posted by Scivation

What if I add Glutamine?

Someone bump this man to a thousand reps! 999 is driving me crazy...I would but I have to recharge...

[pu12en12g]

Originally Posted by thanatopsis

Hmmm... could this be why when I used to mix my cell volumizer products with gatorade (which has some sodium) along with my workout I always felt stronger almost immediatly? I haven't done it in a while but maybe I should try again to see if I notice the same.

That would have been a combo of things:

- Carbs
- Sodium
- Potassium

[dtrain13]

Originally Posted by dbish77

Someone bump this man to a thousand reps! 999 is driving me crazy...I would but I have to recharge...

Done. Oh the power of dtrain!!!!

[dbish77]

Originally Posted by dtrain13

Done. Oh the power of dtrain!!!!

Wooooooo!!! No one ever rep Scivation again...1000 rep points on the nose is good.

[Scivation]

Originally Posted by dbish77

Wooooooo!!! No one ever rep Scivation again...1000 rep points on the nose is good.

All for a smart-alec comment?

Thanks!

[dbish77]

Originally Posted by Scivation

All for a smart-alec comment?

Thanks!

[thanatopsis]

Originally Posted by pu12en12g

That would have been a combo of things:

- Carbs
- Sodium
- Potassium

It could be placebo but I felt significantly stronger vs. gatorade by itself when I would add a creatine product to the drink. But I know what you are saying, gatorade vs. water is a huge difference in itself.

[pu12en12g]

"Electrolytes 101"

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=658426