Myths and lies in Israel/Palestine (Ilan Pappe)

[samian]

Amazon sell a book called "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" by Ilan Pappe.

One reviewer of it has written this:

Ilan Pappe has written a moving account of the dispossession of the Palestinians in 1948. The founding of the State of Israel at the expense of the indigenous inhabitants of Palestine has for a long time been surrounded by Zionist inspired myths, designed to delegitimize the claims of the Palestinians and reduce them to a non-entity.

The destruction of their villages and covering their ruins with forests and claims that Palestinians never existed, as were made by the late Israeli PM Golda Meir, are all part of this.

Accounts of how more thant 700.000 Palestinians lost everything they had in the Nakba of 1948, in what is known as the War for Independence in Israel, have been around for decades. The eminent Palestinian historian Walid Khalidi wrote a seminal account in From Haven To Conquest (1971) and numerous other Western authors have written about the plight of the Palestinians.
In the middle of the 1980s a number of Israeli historians (Simha Flapan, Benny Morris, Tom Segev, Avi Shlaim and Ilan Pappe) began to question the Zionist founding myths as more and more historic documents came available, shining light on the events of 1948.

That in 1948 more than 700.000 Palestinians were expelled by force of arms or fled Palestine and were never allowed to return is beyond doubt. The only question remains the degree of premeditation on the part of the Zionist leadership.

Palestinian historian Nur Masalha has showed convincingly that the concept of transfer of the indigenous Palestinian population was widely discussed among the Zionist leadership in the days of the Mandate. And founding father Theodor Herzl himself spoke in terms of "spiriting the penniless population across the border".

The aim of the Zionist movement was to create a homogenous ethnic Jewish state in the whole of Palestine. But the presence of a significant majority of Palestinian arabs (Moslems and Christians), owning more than 93% of the cultivated land in Palestine stood in the way. The only way therefore to create an exclusive Jewish state was through force of arms and by ethnic cleansing, which is exactly what happened in 1948.

This is the subject of Ilan Pappe's book and it is a tour de force. He describes the meetings of the Consultancy, a small group of decision makers led by Ben-Gurion, the finalising of Plan Dalet, which served as the masterplan for ethnic cleansing. He offers new evidence, like the Village Files, a detailed record of all the Palestinian arab villages, their composition, strength and weaknesses which was compiled by Zionist volunteers over decades. The Village Files gave vital information for the military forces, who attacked the villages during their cleansing operations.

The extent of the massacres of Palestinian villagers, that took place, the systematic destruction of hundreds of ancient villages and buildings of great architectural and historic value is heart breaking.

This is a truly moving account of the tragedy that befell the Palestinian people in 1948, a tragedy that continues to this day. In spite of all the pretenses that the State of Israel seeks peace it's objective is unchanged and that is to get as much Palestinian land as possible with the smallest number of Palestinians. What happens in the Occupied Territories is none other than ethnic cleansing in disguise.

Ilan Pappe's book is essential reading for all who want to understand the reasons why Palestinians are in conflict with the State of Israel. True peace between Palestinians and Israelis is not possible without addressing the crucial events of 1948. Israelis must end their state of denial in this respect.
With this book Pappe has made an invaluable contribution to the cause of peace.

What is the forum's opinion on the review?
It seems clearly biased, but I want to hear the defence of the state of Israel.

I know there has been a lot of lies on this subject and want to know the truth.

[Nasty$al]

I'm not an expert on the issue but the general idea is Jews took land that wasn't theirs forcefully. This led to decades of bullsh!t. Israel should have never been created.

[timbo81]

the "truth" entirely depends on who you talk to.

http://www.middleeastfacts.com/Artic...ian-people.php

though if you look at it purely historically you'll see there's alot of misinformation that is spread about the palestinians having "land rights" as they aren't really a specific race of people but just immigrants from the surrounding areas, even yasser arafat was born in Egypt.

Cause does anyone really own land, it's just human history, one culture moves in to some land, sits there for a few hundred years, gets wiped out and another moves in.

The middle east has been controlled by over a dozen different empires over the millenia so I don't think any 1 culture can claim land rights when their ancestors undoubtedly wiped out the previous race of people on that land.

[samian]

Yes, I am personally still making my mind up about the issue. But in another thread Yovy posted a convincing argument that the below quotation was not just an exxageration, but a flat out lie:

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."

This is more than just spin.. its in my opinion criminal to make up such things becuase of the hate incited.

No one can have a proper opinion until we know what is fact and what is lie, so I made this thread to find out what is what?

[jnani]

Originally Posted by samian

Amazon sell a book called "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" by Ilan Pappe.

What is the forum's opinion on the review?
It seems clearly biased, but I want to hear the defence of the state of Israel.

The review isn't biased unless you think the plain truth and historic facts (many from recently declassified IDF files), are. Anything written by Israeli historian Ilan Pappe is a must read for those who want to learn more on the subject. Unfortunately, many Israel apologists and blind supporters of her past and present brutal policies against the Palestinian people are in complete denial of the horrific events that took place in the past and still take place today. Many Zionists are still blatant Nakba deniers even if faced with devastating, undeniable facts:

http://www.palestineremembered.com/A...Story1649.html (The Nakba - an event that did not occur)

I know there has been a lot of lies on this subject and want to know the truth.

I commend you for stating your willingness to search for the truth, although it won't be always easy in this case. The overwhelming amount of pro Israel propaganda over the last decades, which was overloaded with half truths and/or outright denial and lies is mind boggling, to say the least. BTW, I've already mentioned Ilan Pappe's website http://www.ilanpappe.org/ in another thread: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...1#post67945833

I've also mentioned many other sources in that same post to help people become more aware and educated on the subject (and I've got hundreds more if you're interested). For now, I'm taking the liberty to repost that previous list here again:

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

http://electronicintifada.net/new.shtml

http://www.palestineremembered.com/index.html

http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp

http://www.pchrgaza.org/

http://www.icahd.org/eng/

http://fromoccupiedpalestine.org/

http://www.stoptorture.org.il/eng/

http://www.nimn.org/

http://www.palestinechronicle.com/

http://www.pmwatch.org/pmw/index.asp

http://www.ilanpappe.org/

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/index.php

http://www.refusersolidarity.net/default.asp

http://www.seruv.org.il/english/default.asp

Or watch the following documentaries:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...54859593416473 (Palestine is still the issue- by John Pilger)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...75898578139565 (Peace, Propaganda and the Promised Land)

http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle18145.htm (Occupation 101)

http://www.pertier.com/pappe.html# (A 45 min Interview with leading Israel academic and "New Historian" Dr Ilan Pappe, videoed in Manchester in September 2002.)

[1devil]

Originally Posted by samian

Yes, I am personally still making my mind up about the issue. But in another thread Yovy posted a convincing argument that the below quotation was not just an exxageration, but a flat out lie:

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."

This is more than just spin.. its in my opinion criminal to make up such things becuase of the hate incited.

No one can have a proper opinion until we know what is fact and what is lie, so I made this thread to find out what is what?

Does no one know the history of the region. When the Ottoman empire collapsed the Europeans divided up the remenants, not the Jews. Most of the countries that surround Israel never existed until the fall of the Ottoman empire. Additionally there has never, ever been a country called Palestine. People who call themsleves Palestinian lived in in what is now Jordan, Lebanon, etc. Interestingly most of the countries of the middle east deny the palestinians citizenship and generally treat them like total crap.

Israel contitutes about 1/6 of one percent of the total land mass of the Middle East. If Israel had not been created the land almost certainly would have been gobbled up by the surrounding countries, and the Palestinians would still be living a ****ty existance.

[devire1]

Originally Posted by samian

Yes, I am personally still making my mind up about the issue. But in another thread Yovy posted a convincing argument that the below quotation was not just an exxageration, but a flat out lie:

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."

This is more than just spin.. its in my opinion criminal to make up such things becuase of the hate incited.

No one can have a proper opinion until we know what is fact and what is lie, so I made this thread to find out what is what?

so ben gurion he never said that quote?

[1devil]

Originally Posted by devire1

so ben gurion he never said that quote?

It is a fabrication. Here is my question. If Israel is so evil, why would you have to resort to lies to make the country look bad.

[devire1]

Originally Posted by 1devil

It is a fabrication. Here is my question. If Israel is so evil, why would you have to resort to lies to make the country look bad.

it's a fabrication as in ben gurion never said that quote? please be more specific. are u accusing me of lying? if so, what am i lying about?

[1devil]

Originally Posted by devire1

it's a fabrication as in ben gurion never said that quote? please be more specific. are u accusing me of lying? if so, what am i lying about?

NO, No. I was not implying that you were lying. Yes the quote is a fabrication. I was just wondering why some people (such as kingjames) would need to resort to fabrications to support their hatred of israel. If Israel is in fact so evil, you would think people would be to come up with with plenty of truthful examples of their 'horrible behavior". When people use lies all it does is add strength to my arguments.

[devire1]

Originally Posted by 1devil

NO, No. I was not implying that you were lying. Yes the quote is a fabrication. I was just wondering why some people (such as kingjames) would need to resort to fabrications to support their hatred of israel. If Israel is in fact so evil, you would think people would be to come up with with plenty of truthful examples of their 'horrible behavior". When people use lies all it does is add strength to my arguments.

ok, but when u say the quote is a fabcrication, do u mean that ben gurion never said that quote, or that ben gurion's quote was taken out of context?

[ll ReNeGaDe ll]

I would like to see the alleged quote in hebrew. Can anyone hook me up with that?

[1devil]

Originally Posted by devire1

ok, but when u say the quote is a fabcrication, do u mean that ben gurion never said that quote, or that ben gurion's quote was taken out of context?

It's an actual fabrication.

[devire1]

Originally Posted by 1devil

It's an actual fabrication.

ok so it was made up? lol

[1devil]

Originally Posted by ll ReNeGaDe ll

I would like to see the alleged quote in hebrew. Can anyone hook me up with that?

No. The quote does not exisist in any language. It is a fabrication.

[1devil]

Originally Posted by devire1

ok so it was made up? lol

It's pathetic that kingjames would have it in his sig. If people want to debate actual facts I'm game. But I'm really not interested in debates that involve deluded fabrications.

[Geno]

Originally Posted by devire1

ok so it was made up? lol

He answered your question four times - if you don't have the comprehensive skills of a meerkat, maybe you should post elsewhere.

[1devil]

Originally Posted by Geno

He answered your question four times - if you don't have the comprehensive skills of a meerkat, maybe you should post elsewhere.

Hey don't insult meerkats like that

[ll ReNeGaDe ll]

Originally Posted by devire1

ok so it was made up? lol

It's not uncommon for people to come up with a complete fabrication when it comes to anything anti-Israel.

[devire1]

Originally Posted by Geno

He answered your question four times - if you don't have the comprehensive skills of a meerkat, maybe you should post elsewhere.

speaking of comprehension skills..

fabrication could mean many things. didn't i make that clear enough?

[NuggzTheNinja]

Originally Posted by samian

Yes, I am personally still making my mind up about the issue. But in another thread Yovy posted a convincing argument that the below quotation was not just an exxageration, but a flat out lie:

"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population."

This is more than just spin.. its in my opinion criminal to make up such things becuase of the hate incited.

No one can have a proper opinion until we know what is fact and what is lie, so I made this thread to find out what is what?

That is strictly the Arab position.

The Israeli position is that, upon hearing that the Arab armies were coming down on Israel, many Palestinians left in anticipation of what they thought would be a slaughter of Jews. When this didn't happen, they were unable to return. And there is evidence to support this as well.

http://wais.stanford.edu/Israel/isra...turn51603.html

As documented by Professor Efraim Karsh, the vast majority of refugees from the 1948 war were exhorted to do so by their Arab brethren, who urged them to make way for oncoming Arab armies intent on driving the Jews into the sea. Karsh estimates that only 5 to 10 percent were actively expelled by Israelis. http://www.aijac.org.au/review/2001/266/essay266.html

The British High Commissioner for Palestine, General Sir Alan Cunningham, summarized what was happening:

The collapsing Arab morale in Palestine is in some measure due to the increasing tendency of those who should be leading them to leave the country. . . . In all parts of the country the effendi class has been evacuating in large numbers over a considerable period and the tempo is increasing

In addition, an equal number of Jews were expelled from Arab lands in 1948.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_...rom_Arab_lands

To say that the situation in Israel in 48 was a bunch of white Jews beating up a bunch of olive-skinned Arabs is simplistic and wrong.

[Huse]

The "quote", like all of the anti-zionist's "quotes" are either complete fabrications or just snippets that don't display the real meaning of what the person meant. This quote is a COMPLETE fabrication made and spread by anti-zionists. The hilarity is that the complete lie of the quote shouldn't even be attributed to David Ben-Gurion


"Source given: Cited in Lustick, Ian, Arabs in the Jewish State, University of Texas Press, Texas, 1980.

Investigation: Neither the source given (Ian Lustick's Arabs in the Jewish State) nor the actual report itself contains any mention of "terror, assassination, intimidation or land confiscation".

The Koenig Report or ?memorandum? as it is sometimes referred to, was a private document of recommendations written in 1975 by civil servant Israel Koenig, the Interior Ministry?s official in charge of the Galilee, to alter the demographic balance of the region in favor of the Jews. The recommendations were rejected by then Prime Minister Yitzchak Rabin, denounced by senior Cabinet ministers and rued by then foreign minister Yigal Alon who expressed great regret that the recommendations were ever written. It provoked controversy within Israel after being leaked to Al Hamishmar, the publication of Israel?s Marxist party, Mapam. Koenig?s recommendations included expanding and strengthening Israel?s Jewish presence in the Galilee, applying legal consequences to Arabs expressing hostility toward the state and Zionism, enforcing tax collection from the Arab sector, cutting family subsidies to Arabs with large families, eliminating preferential acceptance of Arabs into Israeli universities, channeling Arab students into studying the physical and natural sciences rather than humanities, and encouraging young Arabs to study abroad and emigrate. As controversial as Koenig?s proposals were at the time, however, there was absolutely no suggestion of using "terror," "assassination," "intimidation" or "land confiscations."

Summary: Fabricated quote, false source"

[NuggzTheNinja]

Originally Posted by Yovy

The "quote", like all of the anti-zionist's "quotes" are either complete fabrications or just snippets that don't display the real meaning of what the person meant. This quote is a COMPLETE fabrication made and spread by anti-zionists. The hilarity is that the complete lie of the quote shouldn't even be attributed to David Ben-Gurion


"Source given: Cited in Lustick, Ian, Arabs in the Jewish State, University of Texas Press, Texas, 1980.

Investigation: Neither the source given (Ian Lustick's Arabs in the Jewish State) nor the actual report itself contains any mention of "terror, assassination, intimidation or land confiscation".

The Koenig Report or ?memorandum? as it is sometimes referred to, was a private document of recommendations written in 1975 by civil servant Israel Koenig, the Interior Ministry?s official in charge of the Galilee, to alter the demographic balance of the region in favor of the Jews. The recommendations were rejected by then Prime Minister Yitzchak Rabin, denounced by senior Cabinet ministers and rued by then foreign minister Yigal Alon who expressed great regret that the recommendations were ever written. It provoked controversy within Israel after being leaked to Al Hamishmar, the publication of Israel?s Marxist party, Mapam. Koenig?s recommendations included expanding and strengthening Israel?s Jewish presence in the Galilee, applying legal consequences to Arabs expressing hostility toward the state and Zionism, enforcing tax collection from the Arab sector, cutting family subsidies to Arabs with large families, eliminating preferential acceptance of Arabs into Israeli universities, channeling Arab students into studying the physical and natural sciences rather than humanities, and encouraging young Arabs to study abroad and emigrate. As controversial as Koenig?s proposals were at the time, however, there was absolutely no suggestion of using "terror," "assassination," "intimidation" or "land confiscations."

Summary: Fabricated quote, false source"

Ben Gurion's actual position:

It is no coincidence that neither Arab propagandists nor Israeli "new historians" have ever produced any evidence of a Zionist master plan to expel the Palestinians during the 1948 war. For such a plan never existed. In accepting the UN partition resolution, the Jewish leadership in Palestine acquiesced in the principle of a two-state solution, and all subsequent deliberations were based on the assumption that Palestine?s Arabs would remain as equal citizens in the Jewish state. As David Ben-Gurion, soon to become Israel?s first prime minister, told the leadership of his Labour (Mapai) party on December 3, 1947:

"In our state there will be non-Jews as well-and all of them will be equal citizens; equal in everything without any exception; that is: the state will be their state as well."

[jnani]

Originally Posted by 1devil

If people want to debate actual facts I'm game.

That's always a good approach. I've also mentioned debating using solid counter arguments based on facts instead of resorting to name calling in another post I recently made in this thread http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...3#post69049333

But apparently, you're also game if you just happen to disagree with someone's point of view, since you decided to neg me and called me "dim" in your comment. Which, according the FAQ, "is not an appropriate use of the reputation system". But hey, if it makes you feel better, keep on negging me if you simply disagree with my opinions :-)

Anyway, back to the subject at hand.

[Huse]

Originally Posted by jnani

That's always a good approach. I've also mentioned debating using solid counter arguments based on facts instead of resorting to name calling in another post I recently made in this thread http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...3#post69049333

But apparently, you're also game if you just happen to disagree with someone's point of view, since you decided to neg me and called me "dim" in your comment. Which, according the FAQ, "is not an appropriate use of the reputation system". But hey, if it makes you feel better, keep on negging me if you simply disagree with my opinions :-)

Anyway, back to the subject at hand.

I believe we had an actual debate that was like over 10 pages on this forum a few weeks ago which ended up in such gems as the quote in my signature. At least I don't have to lie and make up quotes to make my point, like KINGJAMES22 does.

[Ruger357]

It's an interesting history to say the least. And a different history depending on which historian you care to believe. On the exodus of hundreds of thousands of Arabs (exact number also up for speculation), the Jews say that the surrounding Arab countries told them to leave their homes when the Arabs attacked in 1948. The Arabs say the Jews forced them out. British intelligence, which monitored much of what was going on in the area, says that no communication was ever received regarding Arabs telling other Arabs in the area to abandon their homes. We'll probably never know the truth. And whether or not the Jews forced them off their lands, it's not exactly unheard of for conquering armies to force the indigenous population from their land.

The British promised the land to both the Arabs, for their help in defeating the Ottoman empire, and to the Jews in the form of the Balfour declaration. And when the British mandate failed they dropped the mess in the lap of the League of Nations. Skirmishes between the Jews and the Arabs have been going on for well over 80 years, and probably are not going to subside any time soon.

The Jews probably should never have been promised a homeland in an area already populated with Arabs, but they were, and you can't go back and undue history. The best the Jews and Arabs can do is try to work together and move forward in peace. Something I doubt either group truly wants.

[NuggzTheNinja]

Originally Posted by Ruger357

It's an interesting history to say the least. And a different history depending on which historian you care to believe. On the exodus of hundreds of thousands of Arabs (exact number also up for speculation), the Jews say that the surrounding Arab countries told them to leave their homes when the Arabs attacked in 1948. The Arabs say the Jews forced them out. British intelligence, which monitored much of what was going on in the area, says that no communication was ever received regarding Arabs telling other Arabs in the area to abandon their homes. We'll probably never know the truth. And whether or not the Jews forced them off their lands, it's not exactly unheard of for conquering armies to force the indigenous population from their land.

The British promised the land to both the Arabs, for their help in defeating the Ottoman empire, and to the Jews in the form of the Balfour declaration. And when the British mandate failed they dropped the mess in the lap of the League of Nations. Skirmishes between the Jews and the Arabs have been going on for well over 80 years, and probably are not going to subside any time soon.

The Jews probably should never have been promised a homeland in an area already populated with Arabs, but they were, and you can't go back and undue history. The best the Jews and Arabs can do is try to work together and move forward in peace. Something I doubt either group truly wants.

If you watch Israeli TV, you see commercial after commercial sponsoring peace with the Palestinians.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqUY7TKyzCM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5PPc...elated&search=

Do more investigating. You'll be surprised what you'll find.

[1devil]

Originally Posted by jnani

That's always a good approach. I've also mentioned debating using solid counter arguments based on facts instead of resorting to name calling in another post I recently made in this thread http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...3#post69049333

But apparently, you're also game if you just happen to disagree with someone's point of view, since you decided to neg me and called me "dim" in your comment. Which, according the FAQ, "is not an appropriate use of the reputation system". But hey, if it makes you feel better, keep on negging me if you simply disagree with my opinions :-)

Anyway, back to the subject at hand.

Well if someone is dim, it's dishonest not to inform them of the fact. You chose to defend kingjames? why?? He is a bigot and a hypocrite. He whines and complains about others being bigots while exibiting that very behavior himself. He asked for for proof of this, and i and others provided the proof. The fact that his sig has a fake quote attributed to Ben Gurion demonstrates the depths of his stupidity.

That is an example of a solid counter argument ok. So we can move on and discuss the topic at hand, or we can continue this dance. it's up to you.

[1devil]

Originally Posted by Ruger357

It's an interesting history to say the least. And a different history depending on which historian you care to believe. On the exodus of hundreds of thousands of Arabs (exact number also up for speculation), the Jews say that the surrounding Arab countries told them to leave their homes when the Arabs attacked in 1948. The Arabs say the Jews forced them out. British intelligence, which monitored much of what was going on in the area, says that no communication was ever received regarding Arabs telling other Arabs in the area to abandon their homes. We'll probably never know the truth. And whether or not the Jews forced them off their lands, it's not exactly unheard of for conquering armies to force the indigenous population from their land.

The British promised the land to both the Arabs, for their help in defeating the Ottoman empire, and to the Jews in the form of the Balfour declaration. And when the British mandate failed they dropped the mess in the lap of the League of Nations. Skirmishes between the Jews and the Arabs have been going on for well over 80 years, and probably are not going to subside any time soon.

The Jews probably should never have been promised a homeland in an area already populated with Arabs, but they were, and you can't go back and undue history. The best the Jews and Arabs can do is try to work together and move forward in peace. Something I doubt either group truly wants.

Why shouldn't the Jews have been promised the land. Jews have lived in what is now Israel CONTINUOUSLY for over 3000 years. That predates any Arab presence. besides much of what is now Israel was very sparsly populated, if populated at all.

[samian]

Originally Posted by 1devil

Does no one know the history of the region. When the Ottoman empire collapsed the Europeans divided up the remenants, not the Jews. Most of the countries that surround Israel never existed until the fall of the Ottoman empire. Additionally there has never, ever been a country called Palestine. People who call themsleves Palestinian lived in in what is now Jordan, Lebanon, etc. Interestingly most of the countries of the middle east deny the palestinians citizenship and generally treat them like total crap.

Israel contitutes about 1/6 of one percent of the total land mass of the Middle East. If Israel had not been created the land almost certainly would have been gobbled up by the surrounding countries, and the Palestinians would still be living a ****ty existance.

I can now say I know the history of the region whereas before I didn't. But it's not as easy as "Israel was here first", is it.

You can claim palestine never existed as a nation, but the region has only in the last 100 year been transformed from a region of empires to one of nations- this is like saying "Greece never existed as a nation in 300BC"- this is not to the detriment of Greece, because the whole region was made of city-states. The analysis is incompatible with the times. That the British mandate officially used the word "palestine", or in the Ottoman empire it was informally still called "palestine" is significant; although not a "nation" (it could not have been), palestine has demographically been strongly arab, for the last millenium at least.

I'm just saying this because I think it's "cheating" to just say "we were here first", or anything like that. History is never that simple.