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  1. #1
    Registered User easyplease18's Avatar
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    Arrow Danger taking CLA?

    I read another post that said CLA was beneficial but could cause health problems. What are the best natural supplements to take to keep lean muscles and lower body fat?
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    Registered User irish329's Avatar
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    I have seen people take CLA and Pyruvate to decrease bodyfat and keep lean muscle mass. I'm almost positive that they are both natural. Do some more searching ont he forum for CLA and Pyruvate. Im sure you will find something on here. Good luck!
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    Originally Posted by easyplease18
    I read another post that said CLA was beneficial but could cause health problems. What are the best natural supplements to take to keep lean muscles and lower body fat?
    Anything is dangerous in large enough dosages, unfortunantly, the effective dosage of CLA is extremely close to the dangerous one.

    Pyruvate seems to hold some promise but it will probably just help a tiny bit.

    What works is weight training, cardio, a good diet and patience.
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    Registered User M.W.R's Avatar
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    Whoa, I didnt know CLA was possibly dangerous. Whats the danger dose anyway?
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    Registered User jazer80's Avatar
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    danger dose of CLA? uhh, i'd like to hear that too. CLA is just an oil (safflower). i've never ever heard of an oil having a 'danger dose'
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    Originally Posted by jazer80
    danger dose of CLA? uhh, i'd like to hear that too. CLA is just an oil (safflower). i've never ever heard of an oil having a 'danger dose'
    Anything is dangerous at a high enough dose.

    CLA competes with the EFA's for enzym spaces, EFA's have their name because they are needed while CLA is not.

    It also affects the cholesterol, and as we all know a too low level of cholesterol is dangerous.


    So why take CLA when most studies show little or no benefit from it at the dosages (3-4 grams) in humans and effective dosages (16+ grams) are dangerous?
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    four left turns to go... nni's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by PowerSwede
    Anything is dangerous at a high enough dose.

    CLA competes with the EFA's for enzym spaces, EFA's have their name because they are needed while CLA is not.

    It also affects the cholesterol, and as we all know a too low level of cholesterol is dangerous.


    So why take CLA when most studies show little or no benefit from it at the dosages (3-4 grams) in humans and effective dosages (16+ grams) are dangerous?
    http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/we...n-research.htm

    read that, your dosage is too high for 16grams.
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  8. #8
    Registered User jazer80's Avatar
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    okay i get ya. you need to re evaluate your approach to dieting if you're taking in 16 grams of fat in a serving
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    I took a supplement called CLA Plus by Maximuscle many years ago , it was a liquid you had to put 2 drops into a small drink, I took it before going to bed one night and as I was climbing the stairs I missed the step and felt a bit dizzy , thought nothing of it but wasnt something that ever happend to me. just as I was falling asleep my heart felt like it had just run 100 meters on the spot, I jumped out of the bed and was having violent heart palpitations my head was spinning and I seriously thought I was going to die and was desperately trying to catch my breath, I could feel my heart race in my chest like somone was tapping me with a finger speeding up and slowing down......... I have used many substances in my life , never has anything had an effect on me like this.
    Its an experience I will never forget.
    (I had been using it for 1-2 weeks prior to this happening)
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  10. #10
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    Originally Posted by nni
    http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/we...n-research.htm

    read that, your dosage is too high for 16grams.
    Oh, wow, look underneath the "tonalin CLA research" stuff, you can buy Tonalin CLA from that site, how very strange that they did not tell you the whole story.

    Study 1 is irrelevant unless you are a mouse.

    Study 2 is irrelevant if you are not grossly obese.

    Study 3 Is irrelevant as it was made on obese middle aged men with signs of metabolic syndrome.

    Don't believe all the marketing you see on the net.

    Ok, ok, if you are a mouse, grossly obese or have metabolic syndrome, you can lose a couple of pounds more with CLA at low dosages.
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  11. #11
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    Originally Posted by jazer80
    okay i get ya. you need to re evaluate your approach to dieting if you're taking in 16 grams of fat in a serving
    Say what? 16 grams of fat is 16x8=128 calories from fat, i take in more fat than that with EVERY serving.
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  12. #12
    four left turns to go... nni's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by PowerSwede
    Oh, wow, look underneath the "tonalin CLA research" stuff, you can buy Tonalin CLA from that site, how very strange that they did not tell you the whole story.

    Study 1 is irrelevant unless you are a mouse.

    Study 2 is irrelevant if you are not grossly obese.

    Study 3 Is irrelevant as it was made on obese middle aged men with signs of metabolic syndrome.

    Don't believe all the marketing you see on the net.

    Ok, ok, if you are a mouse, grossly obese or have metabolic syndrome, you can lose a couple of pounds more with CLA at low dosages.
    so does that mean i shouldn't trust anything from this site? i mean there is a ton of info on the main site, and they sell stuff? that link does give unbiased opinions about things, and I have trusted it in the past.
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  13. #13
    Registered User jazer80's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by PowerSwede
    Say what? 16 grams of fat is 16x8=128 calories from fat, i take in more fat than that with EVERY serving.
    sorry i meant downing 16 grams of CLA, not fat in general. if you're going to piss your money away on supplements, CLA is a retarded way of doing it.

    also this is a thread on weight loss. 16 grams of fat in a serving is a lot by any stretch unless you're really big. i'm curious as to how large you are, what your dietary goals are, and what approaches you're using. when i bulk, i'll go 3000K daily. this is over six meals, so 500 calories each meal. rough breakdown of 45/35/20 carbs/proteins/fats gives me only 100 calories from fat. my assumption is that you are on the larger size and bulking, but that thought (sixteen grams of fat in a serving) can hardly be carried over to someone who is trying to lose weight. even if CLA is going to have fat reducing properties, you're still eating 16 grams of fat.
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    Registered User jazer80's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nni
    so does that mean i shouldn't trust anything from this site? i mean there is a ton of info on the main site, and they sell stuff? that link does give unbiased opinions about things, and I have trusted it in the past.
    i didn't check the site out in its entirety, but if they sell the stuff i'd be very, very cautious.
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  15. #15
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    Originally Posted by nni
    so does that mean i shouldn't trust anything from this site? i mean there is a ton of info on the main site, and they sell stuff? that link does give unbiased opinions about things, and I have trusted it in the past.
    What you have to do is to look at the information with a critical eye, they are not going to downtalk anything they sell, why on earth would they?

    If it was an unbiased opinion they would have included studies that show negative results, they didn't.

    Here's their "unbiased opinion" on the side effects of glutamine.

    http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/su...s-benefits.htm

    I think that pretty much makes my point.
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    Originally Posted by jazer80
    sorry i meant downing 16 grams of CLA, not fat in general. if you're going to piss your money away on supplements, CLA is a retarded way of doing it.

    also this is a thread on weight loss. 16 grams of fat in a serving is a lot by any stretch unless you're really big. i'm curious as to how large you are, what your dietary goals are, and what approaches you're using. when i bulk, i'll go 3000K daily. this is over six meals, so 500 calories each meal. rough breakdown of 45/35/20 carbs/proteins/fats gives me only 100 calories from fat. my assumption is that you are on the larger size and bulking, but that thought (sixteen grams of fat in a serving) can hardly be carried over to someone who is trying to lose weight. even if CLA is going to have fat reducing properties, you're still eating 16 grams of fat.
    I'm trying to be a little bit anonymous here, there is a pic in my profile though.

    I keep my intake 20/40/40 (c/p/f) and most of the time my fat intake is a lot higher than 128 calories per meal.

    Today i weigh around 250lbs at ~ 12% i'll be around 8% in a few months but my fat intake per meal will still be over 128 calories per meal.

    It's all about knowing what you need, i know my body from experience and this is the best way for me to cut without losing too much muscle.

    Oh, and i never take CLA, only supplements i use are Whey, creatine monohydrate, a good multivitamin and 6000mg of vitamin c a day.
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    Registered User jazer80's Avatar
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    hey man nice pic. that is a weird macrobolic ratio you have there. never heard of that, just goes to show how stupid it is to go by what other people say. everyone is different.

    (on a side note, i got two questions for you there. first, why the hell are you taking six grams of C daily? are you pissing flourescent green? also, why aren't you taking any essential fats?)
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    Originally Posted by PowerSwede
    I'm trying to be a little bit anonymous here, there is a pic in my profile though.

    I keep my intake 20/40/40 (c/p/f) and most of the time my fat intake is a lot higher than 128 calories per meal.

    Today i weigh around 250lbs at ~ 12% i'll be around 8% in a few months but my fat intake per meal will still be over 128 calories per meal.

    It's all about knowing what you need, i know my body from experience and this is the best way for me to cut without losing too much muscle.

    Oh, and i never take CLA, only supplements i use are Whey, creatine monohydrate, a good multivitamin and 6000mg of vitamin c a day.
    6000mg of vitamin C a day? isnt that way way too much? isnt 200 enough?
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    Originally Posted by jazer80
    hey man nice pic. that is a weird macrobolic ratio you have there. never heard of that, just goes to show how stupid it is to go by what other people say. everyone is different.

    (on a side note, i got two questions for you there. first, why the hell are you taking six grams of C daily? are you pissing flourescent green? also, why aren't you taking any essential fats?)
    1000mg of vitamin c per meal, there are studies that have shown vitamin c in dosages above 5000mg to be both anabolic and anti-catabolic, it's cheap, it's safe and it's working pretty great for me.

    I get enough essential fats from my diet, so i don't really need to supplement it.
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    Originally Posted by flamethrower
    6000mg of vitamin C a day? isnt that way way too much? isnt 200 enough?
    There is not really any upper limit of how much vitamin C you can take a day, there is a story about Charles Poliquin taking 320GRAMS (320 000mg!) IV in the supplement forum.

    What is enough, well, how much protein is enough? 0.5g/lbs?

    One thing to remember, a hardcore bodybuilders requirements are quite different from the "average person", we need more protein, more calories and with more food comes more free radicals, thus we need more anti-oxidants, vitamin C is a good, non-toxic and very cheap anti-oxidant, shop for price.
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    that's interesting, i've never heard of those studies. in what way is it anabolic? aside from that, i gotta say i doubt that you are ever catabolic, irregardless of vitamin C intake. and if you are already anabolic, how could that be putting you in any better of a position? (it would be cool if you could post summaries of the studies, i've never heard of this, and have been lifting forever, and know people really serious into this stuff, and work at GNC as well, and not saying you're wrong, but just saying i have never even heard of this idea before)
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    Ive seen the studies for and against CLA and I am currently taking it right now. Ive started to see a gradual drop in bf, but not a huge amount. im also doing a little bit of cardio and lowering my cals a little bit. i can tell it has some effect but its pretty expensive for the low results. im undecided if i am going to get more. my.02
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    i'm curious what your starting bf was, and what you're at now. also how long this change took, and what your daily dosage was. (i hope everyone knows that any essential fatty acids, like flax, or particularly fish oils, will promote fat loss as well. plus they're a ton cheaper, and better for your overall health)
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    My 2 cents

    I stock up on CLA when I'm in my gaining phase and I do not consider it a waste of money. When I increase my calories beyond my expenditure, I closely watch my measurements and bodyfat because I don't want to add too much fat(making it harder to diet it off). I've cycled this way tons of times without CLA and my body fat would go up 6-8%. I've done this so many times that it becomes obvious when I add an effective new supplement to my diet. CLA may not be effective for everyone, but for me it has been AMAZING. This best thing about it is that my dieting phase is easier because when I take CLA (as I have been since 05/04) my bodyfat moves up only 4% and my waist size increases about half an inch (as opposed to an inch and a half).

    I encourage you to do some more searches on this website. There's an articles you're certain to find that explains the mixed results in human studies may be the result of variants of the isomers used. Just do a search for CLA on this website and it will come up.
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    Originally Posted by jazer80
    that's interesting, i've never heard of those studies. in what way is it anabolic? aside from that, i gotta say i doubt that you are ever catabolic, irregardless of vitamin C intake. and if you are already anabolic, how could that be putting you in any better of a position? (it would be cool if you could post summaries of the studies, i've never heard of this, and have been lifting forever, and know people really serious into this stuff, and work at GNC as well, and not saying you're wrong, but just saying i have never even heard of this idea before)
    I can't seem to find them at the moment, one was a reference in a Charles Poliquin article, i know it contains the words "Research indicates that increasing Vitamin C levels can lead to anabolic processes, organ function improvement, and immune system enhancement." but a search on that results in other articles.

    Sorry.
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    ah no problem; you did see this from multiple, unrelated sources though right?
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    i mean of all the things to take to stay anabolic (again i can't imagine that you got your physique w/o understanding how to stay anabolic anyways), vitamin C just can't be as good as things like glutamine, any protein powder, or even zinc.
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    Originally Posted by jazer80
    i mean of all the things to take to stay anabolic (again i can't imagine that you got your physique w/o understanding how to stay anabolic anyways), vitamin C just can't be as good as things like glutamine, any protein powder, or even zinc.
    Vitamin C is most definently years ahead of glutamine, glutamine will do nothing in your body unless you are seriously injured or sick, protein powder is a good thing, mostly because it's hard to eat all the calories you need, but it's food and should be treated as such, zinc is great if you are deficiant.

    Glutamine, if you get enough protein you have enough glutamine, as a supplement it is completely worthless unless you are on a calorie restricted diet and working out hard, your body produces it if you should become deficient. If you were to contract a serious illness or injury it would become an essential amino acid since the body can not keep up with the need, but for 99% of all of us it's worthless.

    What Vitamin C helps you with is recovery, removing waste material and building new muscle releases plenty of free radicals, much more than any normal human being comes close to, your body can't produce it so you have to get it from your diet, the best part of it is that it is virtually impossible to overdose on it.

    It really isn't a matter of staying anabolic, your entire body except your left biceps can be in an anabolic state while the left biceps is in a catabolic state, what is important is supplying the nutrients to minimize the catabolic phase and improve the anabolic phase, vitamin C, can help you do that for a fraction of the cost of what it would cost to take enough HMB or Glutamine to produce half the result.

    NAC though, now theres a supplement to look further into, i can't get it for free just yet so i'll wait until i can.
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    isn't glutamine the quickest amino acid to be depleted during a workout? you mentioned it's important during injury, but in a physiological sense, aren't bodybuilders/powerlifters injuring themselves at the muscular level almost daily?
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    Originally Posted by jazer80
    isn't glutamine the quickest amino acid to be depleted during a workout? you mentioned it's important during injury, but in a physiological sense, aren't bodybuilders/powerlifters injuring themselves at the muscular level almost daily?
    Not to the extent that the body can't keep up with it, as long as there is a need for glutamine the body will produce it, if the injury is too large for the body to keep up, then glutamine supplements will help. If you are seriously overtraining it might help, but it would be even more beneficial to train less.

    A good whey protein supplies everything the body needs to make glutamine and it does contain 3-4 grams of glutamine.
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