Drinking as your cheats...??? Thoughts?

[Dominikm]

So whats ppl thoughs on alcohol as cheating? I don't really have any desire to cheat with food as I like my diet, if I do it will be once in a while and a little extra meat cooked with so extras or spag bolo and just a fair amount, no more ****ty burgers ect and make sure its on a weight day to make it better...

Anyhow, my question is, say you go out for a night and drink 1000 cals worth of beer over the night, I just found out that for example a pint of tooheys extra dry is 182 cals from calorieking.com.au, so 6 pints over the night are like ~1100 cals...

And if your out having a good time and busting out the moves on the dance floor from like 11pm to 4am or something, well, I did 500 cals and a semi decent pace on the treadmill for 30 mins today. So there is no way I wouldn't burn 1100cals over a whole night if i'm dancing for like atleast 2 hrs...

So in turn you have a equal balance of cals, sure it's beer in the end and it bad, but if you cheat with **** house macdonals or eat a whole pizza that food that stays in you, you wont dance it off and it's alot more cals, u just workout harder the next time in the gym and i'll still do that but have danced the cals off also...

I'd rather go out and have and awsome time (and I can control myself and no eat **** food while im out also. If I eat i'll get something semi decent), than eating ****ty food.

I could even have a casein protien shake for my body to absorb and a banana or something before going out to preven muscle break down...

If I could get a honest anwser to my question that would be great, not "ohhhhhhh it's another alcohol thread", bacasue i'm not asking what beer are is best or what spirits are best ect... I have a question I actaully want an answer to.

[I3uilt]

i dont think about it like that. If my friends are partying i get drunk and have a good time. you only live once and ive been eating decent, lifting weights and living life whenever possible for around 2 years now and when i look at pictures of me from 2 years ago i dont even recognize myself.

In my mind that is success.

[Dominikm]

That good stuff mate, I guess it's fine what I wanna do, i'm just over analysing. Of course if I burn off the cals dancing it's better than frigging eating **** food and being lazy for the rest of the day, lol.

[emptypockets]

yea man dont worry bout it. I drink EVERY fri/sat night extremely heavy and Im still making great gains. +10 beers each night. if you think its giong to bother you the next day go for a run or some cardio to burn off. or on the day you are drinknig dont eat as much.

[Maxfits202]

yeah man i people probably think differently but i dont consider it a cheat if you just drink plain spirits like Vodka with sugar free mixes or light beer your fine. your right about burning some of the calories while your partying. i wouldnt do it every night as that may affect your performance in the gym but otherwise you wont gain weight. i actually weigh less and look more ripped in the morning after drinking, prolly cuz im dehydrated lol. good post

[Dominikm]

I'm cutting atm so thats the problem, I can't see the problem on a bulk excep a bit of extra fat. But as long as I burn off the cals while cutting from dancing or what eva in the night it should still be ok.

[Maxfits202]

yeah i usually always do a nice cardio session the next morning. makes me feel better about what i drank or ate and also cures any kind of hangover imo

[FlipperAnderson]

You are right, having a light drinking night and being active while your doing so is not as bad as having a big fast food meal and being lazy. That said, it is a cheat meal and still not good. But in the situations you brought up, option A isnt as bad for you as option B.

[Sibrek]

Well...completely not reading your post, I think a night of drinking and getting some is a good cheat for a normal person, as opposed to sitting in your room eating a lot of cookies like some of the members here.

[ItTakesTime]

I3uilt, you are exactly right.

[moto46]

go for it! as said you only live once, & you are only 20

[eyesonly]

I cheat foodwise when I cheat with alcohol, getting it all out of the way at the same time. The main reason for this is because when drinking I need constant food and for some reason 'clean' food doesn't seem to satiate me the same way. I eat when drinking to have control of my session and be able to drink a decent amount without feeling ill. If I'm eating chicken, rice, and beans, it doesn't seem to do the same job as a carne asada burrito, restaurant burger or couple slices of pizza.

But that's just me.

[bigphishy56]

Well...completely not reading your post, I think a night of drinking and getting some is a good cheat for a normal person, as opposed to sitting in your room eating a lot of cookies like some of the members here.

so true, this post made me laugh

[Gymdude05]

to the op I agree with ya...you gotta enjoy urself... I get mad at myself when i look back at some times in the past when i have missed out on some many good times with my buddies b/c I was worried about the calorie content of drinking...but now I making up for it lol...but i still only drink like 2 times a week max usually just 1...not obsess or over analyze...we workout and eat semi healthy so we'll if u dont compete it wont kill ya...think about all those that do it all the time and then eat **** and dont exercise....peace man

[v4lu3s]

all it comes down to is what you want to do. Going out and having a good time and having a lot of beer is fine if it works for you. You are at a time in your life that you have a lot more desire to do that. Of course i know guys your age that go out and party but just dont drink. It all depends on your goals.

[Littlebigaj]

You have to consider Alcohol as more than simply excess calories. Alcohol is going to slow down the fat burning process, protein synthesis, and also your metabolism for up to as much as 42 hours.

[Tussmann57]

i made a thread like this awhile back,

people generally just said keep cheats food based

but honestly the great feeling you get from drinking is 10x better than any big mac anyone has ever had.

Its my cheat.

[forcasa]

as you get older and the hangover stays with you for more than just one morning it's going to start screwing up your motivation if you're getting blitzed. but for now - go for it.

[Aindreas]

i made a thread like this awhile back,

people generally just said keep cheats food based

but honestly the great feeling you get from drinking is 10x better than any big mac anyone has ever had.

Its my cheat.

Amen to that. I prefer slightly more psychedelic substances myself, but it's about the experience, the stories, and the memories, not a taste that's gonna last 30 seconds and then make you feel ridiculously guilty while desperately doing cardio to get rid fo the bloat and water weight, and then make a thread asking a bunch of strangers if you're gonna turn into a fat@ss.

[Cable Curling CincoUno]

I personally find that I can't seriously train while consuming beer. I can make ok gains but I'm just not anywhere near 100% while regularly consuming the hootch. There are more than excess calorie issues when consuming booze.

[matthor]

i hate being hungover

[grapemaster]

Well...completely not reading your post, I think a night of drinking and getting some is a good cheat for a normal person, as opposed to sitting in your room eating a lot of cookies like some of the members here.

anyway I can't drink like that anymore... im getting my MBA plus I work 50-60 hours a week so having a hangover or spending all night out then sleeping in just rips way into my time. I definitely had my share of partying from about 16-23 though and still will do it up big, just can't do the every weekend ****.

[eyesonly]

anyway I can't drink like that anymore... im getting my MBA plus I work 50-60 hours a week so having a hangover or spending all night out then sleeping in just rips way into my time. I definitely had my share of partying from about 16-23 though and still will do it up big, just can't do the every weekend ****.

I hear ya. When I was getting my MBA it was once every two weeks or so... usually right after a big test or a huge study session that I needed to 'unwind' from.

[eyesonly]

Amen to that. I prefer slightly more psychedelic substances myself, but it's about the experience, the stories, and the memories, not a taste that's gonna last 30 seconds and then make you feel ridiculously guilty while desperately doing cardio to get rid fo the bloat and water weight, and then make a thread asking a bunch of strangers if you're gonna turn into a fat@ss.

Couldn't have said it better myself... the stories and memories (or lack thereof, in which case you need your friends to tell you what happened!) hold ageless value for me. And man, psychedelics always make for a good story or two, eh?

[Aindreas]

Couldn't have said it better myself... the stories and memories (or lack thereof, in which case you need your friends to tell you what happened!) hold ageless value for me. And man, psychedelics always make for a good story or two, eh?

Well, I like to think watching my dorm turn into an Aztec temple with beings in yellow kimonos holding umbrellas dancing down the staircase in time to the Sigur Ros on my headphones is a good story, but I don't know that I can truly verbally relate my experience. Anyway, that was only a small part of it, and all of it beats anything food can provide.

[skinny buckeye]

its not the cals in the booze thats teh problem, its the way alcohol effects your hormones. sadly alcohol has a devastating effect on test levels and increases aromatization leading to more adipose. very hard to make any progress in the gym if you're drinking much.

----------------------

The deleterious effects of ethanol on humans and animals is consistent and well-established in both adults and adolescents, with decreases in GH levels, GH mRNA (24), as well as GH releasing factor mRNA levels (25). In adolescent rats, administration of 3g/kg of ethanol, which, due to the faster metabolism of rats produced blood alcohol levels equivalent to only about 4-6 drinks for humans, caused a massive drop in GH levels to just 4-7% of control by the 1.5 hour mark (26) -- Levels were still down 66-86% after 24 hours. In adult rats, the same 3g/kg caused total suppression of GH release, with 2g/kg causing significant but not total suppression (27).

In young adult male humans, 1.5mg/kg disrupted the nocturnal rhythm of GH secretion in all subjects, as well as decreasing overall release by 30% (28). 1g/kg almost completely inhibited the nocturnal rise in growth hormone levels, while a mere .5mg/kg resulted in levels 1/3 that of control (29). Inhibition of hepatic IGF-1 synthesis (30, 31), and the IGF-1/IGFBP-1 ratio (31, 32), a marker of IGF-1 bioavailability, have also been shown to be negatively effected by ethanol.



Cortisol


Ethanol has been found to both directly, and indirectly -- via increases in ACTH (33), increase cortisol production. 1.75g/kg increased levels by 152% at 4 hours and was still significantly higher than control at 24 hours in adult males (34). In addition, consumption of ethanol along with exercise resulted in a 61% increase in cortisol over alcohol alone (35) . A study of adolescents admitted to the hospital with acute alcohol intoxication showed ACTH and cortisol levels 10 and 1.6 times that of controls in females, and 5.9 and 1.4 times as high in males -- however, a general stress response much be considered as a possibility in these circumstances (36).

Other studies, however, have not found such effects (28, 37, 38). Thus, some researchers have concluded that any increases in cortisol are due to a stress response from nausea rather than a direct effect of ethanol (38, 39). And, indded, in one study, a subjects that vomited displayed cortisol levels 5 times as high as his baseline value (28).







Testosterone


Finally, we get to the good part -- or bad, if you like to hit the sauce with regularity. Acute ingestion of ethanol has been fairly consistently shown to significantly suppress testosterone production in both animals and humans, adults and adolescents. We will first look at the mechanisms involved, then turn to studies looking at actual testosterone levels.



Ethanol has also been shown to decrease LH releasing hormone at the hypothalamus (55), to decrease LH release at the pituitary (56), as well as to inhibit betaLH mRNA in vitro (57). This could be mediated by endogenous opiates as they are known to be increased by ethanol, and opiate antagonists have been shown to increase LH release as well as to block ethanol induced testosterone suppression at the testicular level (58).


Let's now turn to some studies that looked directly at testosterone levels following acute alcohol administration. In adult males, 1.3g/kg of ethanol (about 10 drinks for a 200 lb person), caused a significant decrease vs. basal levels at the 60 minute mark. Differences for the next two hours were not significant, though the researches did not utilize a control group, so the natural morning rise in testosterone could have masked any effects (38). 1.5g/kg lowered levels by an average of 23% over a 24 hour period (28). 1.75g/kg lowered levels by 27% and 16% at 12 and 24 hours, respectively (34). Adolescent males admitted to the hospital for alcohol intoxication were found to have 21% lower testosterone levels than controls (36).

A couple of studies have looked at alcohol and exercise. 1.5g/kg depressed testosterone by more than 20% by 1 hour and was still depressed by the same margin at hour 10 (37). Interestingly, when the same ethanol dose was preceded by an exercise session, the suppressive effect continued for 22 hours -- and when exercise was performed during a hangover, significant suppression (21-32%) vs. ethanol alone continued for 26 hours. Compared to control, both ethanol groups had significantly lower testosterone levels for 42 hours - this is almost 2 full days. A much smaller intake (.83g/kg) did not result in a significant decrease (35).

All of this is at what are fairly moderate doses. Let's take a look at binge drinking doses.

Probably for ethical reasons, doses equating to 20+ drinks have not been studied in humans, so we must settle for rat data, but considering the effects at lower doses seem quite similar, these studies are likely quite relevant -- and could actually underestimate the effect, since, as we mentioned, these doses resulted in much lower blood alcohol levels in rats than humans.

3g/kg caused massive suppression of testosterone (67). Between hours 1.5 and 96 (yes, 4 days later), testosterone was reduced between 50-75% and, even a full week later, it was still down 40%. By week two, it was finally back to control level. 3g/kg also reduced HCG stimulated testosterone secretion by 75% (66). In male macaque monkeys, 2.5 and 3.5g/kg reduced testosterone levels by 63 and 70%, respectively (68)

One study in adolescent rats found that testosterone levels doubled for the first 3 of weeks of ethanol ingestion (69) -- however, this was with an intake equal to 90 drinks per day for a 200 lb person. If anyone tries this, please report back with your results.

On the other hand, levels below 1g/kg seem to have no deleritous effects (35, 70).

Another interesting tidbit -- increased testosterone levels were found to correlate with decreased symptoms of withdrawal in alcoholics -- and the authors recommended supplemental testosterone as a possible treatment strategy (71). Wonder if a doctor would buy this??



Alcohol and Estrogen


Chronic alcoholics, in addition to being hypogonadal, exhibit sign of overt feminization (72). There is some evidence to suggest that ethanol might also increase the aromatization of testosterone to estradiol. Consumption of .9 - 2.1g/kg of beer or wine significantly (P <0.05 to P< 0.001) increased estradiol levels in healthy adult humans (73). A study in rats found levels of estradiol increased by 60% (to go along with 55% lower test levels) - however, this was with the equivalent of about 13 drinks/day for 1-2 months (74).

In addition, alcohol administration has been shown to increase estrogen receptor density (75, 76) and to decrease levels of a estradiol binding protein (77, 78) -- as well as to lower androgen receptor numbers (76). However, this has primarily been found in conjunction with alcoholic liver disease, so its relevance to acute consumption in questionable.





Protein Synthesis


Both ethanol and its metabolic byproduct, aldehyde, have been shown to reduce protein synthesis in skeletal muscle (85, 86, 87, 88). To make matters worse, it is predominately Type II, fast-twitch fibers that are affected, with type IIB being hit the hardest (85, 86, 87). This is not a good thing for bodybuilders, and it is a very bad thing for athletes.

With acute administration of real-world doses (.8 - 2.0g/kg) of ethanol, reductions in protein synthesis of 20-30% have been seen within about o_ne to two hours of administration, this is before the previously reviewed hormonal changes occur, indicating that alcohol is exerting a direct effect (85, 86, 88). Within 24 hours, decreases of as high as 63% have been shown to occur (86), which likely reflects the added contribution of negative hormonal changes.

The mechanism behind this is not fully characterized. Reduction in both mRNA (86) and translational efficiency (87) have been observed. The generation of free-radicals, which are known to be increased by ethanol (89, 90), could be involved (91). Low levels of selenium and alpha-tocopherol (vitamin E) are found in alcoholics with myopathy (muscle wasting) (92). However, there is also evidence that does not support this theory (93). Another possibility is direct ischemic damage (94).

Given alcohol's hormonal effects and its direct effects o_n protein synthesis, if you are going to indulge in fairly heavy alcohol consumption, it would probably be a very good idea to utilize a topical prohormone formulation (or a short-acting injectable ester of the real thing) the evening of drinking and the next day in order to minimize the damage to your hard earned muscle.

[Tussmann57]

its not the cals in the booze thats teh problem, its the way alcohol effects your hormones. sadly alcohol has a devastating effect on test levels and increases aromatization leading to more adipose. very hard to make any progress in the gym if you're drinking much.

----------------------

The deleterious effects of ethanol on humans and animals is consistent and well-established in both adults and adolescents, with decreases in GH levels, GH mRNA (24), as well as GH releasing factor mRNA levels (25). In adolescent rats, administration of 3g/kg of ethanol, which, due to the faster metabolism of rats produced blood alcohol levels equivalent to only about 4-6 drinks for humans, caused a massive drop in GH levels to just 4-7% of control by the 1.5 hour mark (26) -- Levels were still down 66-86% after 24 hours. In adult rats, the same 3g/kg caused total suppression of GH release, with 2g/kg causing significant but not total suppression (27).

In young adult male humans, 1.5mg/kg disrupted the nocturnal rhythm of GH secretion in all subjects, as well as decreasing overall release by 30% (28). 1g/kg almost completely inhibited the nocturnal rise in growth hormone levels, while a mere .5mg/kg resulted in levels 1/3 that of control (29). Inhibition of hepatic IGF-1 synthesis (30, 31), and the IGF-1/IGFBP-1 ratio (31, 32), a marker of IGF-1 bioavailability, have also been shown to be negatively effected by ethanol.



Cortisol


Ethanol has been found to both directly, and indirectly -- via increases in ACTH (33), increase cortisol production. 1.75g/kg increased levels by 152% at 4 hours and was still significantly higher than control at 24 hours in adult males (34). In addition, consumption of ethanol along with exercise resulted in a 61% increase in cortisol over alcohol alone (35) . A study of adolescents admitted to the hospital with acute alcohol intoxication showed ACTH and cortisol levels 10 and 1.6 times that of controls in females, and 5.9 and 1.4 times as high in males -- however, a general stress response much be considered as a possibility in these circumstances (36).

Other studies, however, have not found such effects (28, 37, 38). Thus, some researchers have concluded that any increases in cortisol are due to a stress response from nausea rather than a direct effect of ethanol (38, 39). And, indded, in one study, a subjects that vomited displayed cortisol levels 5 times as high as his baseline value (28).







Testosterone


Finally, we get to the good part -- or bad, if you like to hit the sauce with regularity. Acute ingestion of ethanol has been fairly consistently shown to significantly suppress testosterone production in both animals and humans, adults and adolescents. We will first look at the mechanisms involved, then turn to studies looking at actual testosterone levels.



Ethanol has also been shown to decrease LH releasing hormone at the hypothalamus (55), to decrease LH release at the pituitary (56), as well as to inhibit betaLH mRNA in vitro (57). This could be mediated by endogenous opiates as they are known to be increased by ethanol, and opiate antagonists have been shown to increase LH release as well as to block ethanol induced testosterone suppression at the testicular level (58).


Let's now turn to some studies that looked directly at testosterone levels following acute alcohol administration. In adult males, 1.3g/kg of ethanol (about 10 drinks for a 200 lb person), caused a significant decrease vs. basal levels at the 60 minute mark. Differences for the next two hours were not significant, though the researches did not utilize a control group, so the natural morning rise in testosterone could have masked any effects (38). 1.5g/kg lowered levels by an average of 23% over a 24 hour period (28). 1.75g/kg lowered levels by 27% and 16% at 12 and 24 hours, respectively (34). Adolescent males admitted to the hospital for alcohol intoxication were found to have 21% lower testosterone levels than controls (36).

A couple of studies have looked at alcohol and exercise. 1.5g/kg depressed testosterone by more than 20% by 1 hour and was still depressed by the same margin at hour 10 (37). Interestingly, when the same ethanol dose was preceded by an exercise session, the suppressive effect continued for 22 hours -- and when exercise was performed during a hangover, significant suppression (21-32%) vs. ethanol alone continued for 26 hours. Compared to control, both ethanol groups had significantly lower testosterone levels for 42 hours - this is almost 2 full days. A much smaller intake (.83g/kg) did not result in a significant decrease (35).

All of this is at what are fairly moderate doses. Let's take a look at binge drinking doses.

Probably for ethical reasons, doses equating to 20+ drinks have not been studied in humans, so we must settle for rat data, but considering the effects at lower doses seem quite similar, these studies are likely quite relevant -- and could actually underestimate the effect, since, as we mentioned, these doses resulted in much lower blood alcohol levels in rats than humans.

3g/kg caused massive suppression of testosterone (67). Between hours 1.5 and 96 (yes, 4 days later), testosterone was reduced between 50-75% and, even a full week later, it was still down 40%. By week two, it was finally back to control level. 3g/kg also reduced HCG stimulated testosterone secretion by 75% (66). In male macaque monkeys, 2.5 and 3.5g/kg reduced testosterone levels by 63 and 70%, respectively (68)

One study in adolescent rats found that testosterone levels doubled for the first 3 of weeks of ethanol ingestion (69) -- however, this was with an intake equal to 90 drinks per day for a 200 lb person. If anyone tries this, please report back with your results.

On the other hand, levels below 1g/kg seem to have no deleritous effects (35, 70).

Another interesting tidbit -- increased testosterone levels were found to correlate with decreased symptoms of withdrawal in alcoholics -- and the authors recommended supplemental testosterone as a possible treatment strategy (71). Wonder if a doctor would buy this??



Alcohol and Estrogen


Chronic alcoholics, in addition to being hypogonadal, exhibit sign of overt feminization (72). There is some evidence to suggest that ethanol might also increase the aromatization of testosterone to estradiol. Consumption of .9 - 2.1g/kg of beer or wine significantly (P <0.05 to P< 0.001) increased estradiol levels in healthy adult humans (73). A study in rats found levels of estradiol increased by 60% (to go along with 55% lower test levels) - however, this was with the equivalent of about 13 drinks/day for 1-2 months (74).

In addition, alcohol administration has been shown to increase estrogen receptor density (75, 76) and to decrease levels of a estradiol binding protein (77, 78) -- as well as to lower androgen receptor numbers (76). However, this has primarily been found in conjunction with alcoholic liver disease, so its relevance to acute consumption in questionable.





Protein Synthesis


Both ethanol and its metabolic byproduct, aldehyde, have been shown to reduce protein synthesis in skeletal muscle (85, 86, 87, 88). To make matters worse, it is predominately Type II, fast-twitch fibers that are affected, with type IIB being hit the hardest (85, 86, 87). This is not a good thing for bodybuilders, and it is a very bad thing for athletes.

With acute administration of real-world doses (.8 - 2.0g/kg) of ethanol, reductions in protein synthesis of 20-30% have been seen within about o_ne to two hours of administration, this is before the previously reviewed hormonal changes occur, indicating that alcohol is exerting a direct effect (85, 86, 88). Within 24 hours, decreases of as high as 63% have been shown to occur (86), which likely reflects the added contribution of negative hormonal changes.

The mechanism behind this is not fully characterized. Reduction in both mRNA (86) and translational efficiency (87) have been observed. The generation of free-radicals, which are known to be increased by ethanol (89, 90), could be involved (91). Low levels of selenium and alpha-tocopherol (vitamin E) are found in alcoholics with myopathy (muscle wasting) (92). However, there is also evidence that does not support this theory (93). Another possibility is direct ischemic damage (94).

Given alcohol's hormonal effects and its direct effects o_n protein synthesis, if you are going to indulge in fairly heavy alcohol consumption, it would probably be a very good idea to utilize a topical prohormone formulation (or a short-acting injectable ester of the real thing) the evening of drinking and the next day in order to minimize the damage to your hard earned muscle.

you're 33.

[skinny buckeye]

yes whats your point? this isnt the teen section, kid.

[Tussmann57]

yes whats your point? this isnt the teen section, kid.

sorry, I forgot this was the "lets -beat- the- dead- horse -with -the -same old -useless -BS -scientific -facts- everyone- already- knows -but- doesnt really -care -because- drinking- is- really -fun- at -a- young -age" section.

[skinny buckeye]

sorry, I forgot this was the "lets -beat- the- dead- horse -with -the -same old -useless -BS -scientific -facts- everyone- already- knows -but- doesnt really -care -because- drinking- is- really -fun- at -a- young -age" section.

hey i've drank more than you ever will. sure its a good time. but you are on a bodybuilding site... not 'casualweightlifter.com', not hitthegymandbooze.com

bodybuilding.com

if you're hereto talk about having blast drinking, then you're on the wrong site! seriously. what does drinking have to do with bodybuilding?

seriously kid, you are very young and very ignorant. just because you are not serious abouit lifting doesnt mean the site caters to you. many here are after detailed info on how to BUILD MUSCLE. if you're here to bs and shoot the breeze till mommy kicks you off the pc maybe you can find another site for that?