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  1. #121
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh wow...

    Originally posted by Younglifter14
    Raising reps is changing things up. I only raise reps to cut fat. Go for more of a cardio workout or circuit train. Unless doing pure cardio type exercise.

    Using high reps to cut fat? well I see im done here.

    Young
    Yes you are Young. If there are others on this board that know how the body works and anything about health at all, they'll see you just put your foot in your mouth.

    Thank you for the discussion.
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh wow...

    Originally posted by martyds761
    Yes you are Young. If there are others on this board that know how the body works and anything about health at all, they'll see you just put your foot in your mouth.

    Thank you for the discussion.
    thats fine. You can throw away the other points becuase you don't know what to say. It doesnt really matter. Keep using high reps to tone yourself and burn fat

    Performing lighter weight with more repetitions (15-20 reps, 20-30 reps, or 20-50 reps) does not burn more fat or tone (simultaneous decrease of fat and increase muscle) better than a heaver weight with moderate repetitions (8-12 reps). Weight training utilizes carbohydrates after the initial ATP and CP stores have been exhausted after the first few seconds of intense muscular contraction. Typically a set's duration is 20 to 30 seconds. For the average fit person, it requires 20 to 30 minutes of continuous aerobic activity with large muscle groups (eg. Gluteus Maximus and Quadriceps) to burn even 50% fat; fat requires oxygen to burn. Performing a few extra repetitions on a weight training exercise is not significant enough to burn extra fat and may in effect burn less fat. If intensity is compromised, less fat may be burned when light weight is used with high repetitions. The burning sensation associated with high repetition training seems to be the primary deterrent for achieving higher intensities.

    For individuals attempting to achieve fat loss for aesthetics, the intensity of weight training can be a double edge sword. When beginning an exercise program, muscle mass increases may out pace fat losses, resulting in a small initial weight gain. Significant fat loss requires a certain intensity, duration, and frequency that novice exercisers may not be able to achieve until they develop greater tolerance to exercise. If an exercise and nutrition program is not adequate for significant fat loss, a lighter weight with higher repetitions may be recommended to minimize any bulking effects, although less fat may be utilized hours later. If an aerobic exercise and nutrition program is sufficient enough to lose fat, a moderate repetition range with a progressively heavier weight will accelerate fat loss with a toning effect. If a muscle group ever out paces fat loss, the bulking effect is only temporary. For a toning effect, fat can be lost later when aerobic exercise can be significantly increased or the weight training exercise(s) for that particular muscle can be ceased altogether. The muscle will atrophy to a pre-exercise girth within months. Higher repetitions training may be later implemented and assessed.


    http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/Myths.html

    take care

    Young
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  3. #123
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh wow...

    Originally posted by Younglifter14
    thats fine. You can throw away the other points becuase you don't know what to say. It doesnt really matter. Keep using high reps to tone yourself and burn fat

    Performing lighter weight with more repetitions (15-20 reps, 20-30 reps, or 20-50 reps) does not burn more fat or tone (simultaneous decrease of fat and increase muscle) better than a heaver weight with moderate repetitions (8-12 reps). Weight training utilizes carbohydrates after the initial ATP and CP stores have been exhausted after the first few seconds of intense muscular contraction. Typically a set's duration is 20 to 30 seconds. For the average fit person, it requires 20 to 30 minutes of continuous aerobic activity with large muscle groups (eg. Gluteus Maximus and Quadriceps) to burn even 50% fat; fat requires oxygen to burn. Performing a few extra repetitions on a weight training exercise is not significant enough to burn extra fat and may in effect burn less fat. If intensity is compromised, less fat may be burned when light weight is used with high repetitions. The burning sensation associated with high repetition training seems to be the primary deterrent for achieving higher intensities.

    For individuals attempting to achieve fat loss for aesthetics, the intensity of weight training can be a double edge sword. When beginning an exercise program, muscle mass increases may out pace fat losses, resulting in a small initial weight gain. Significant fat loss requires a certain intensity, duration, and frequency that novice exercisers may not be able to achieve until they develop greater tolerance to exercise. If an exercise and nutrition program is not adequate for significant fat loss, a lighter weight with higher repetitions may be recommended to minimize any bulking effects, although less fat may be utilized hours later. If an aerobic exercise and nutrition program is sufficient enough to lose fat, a moderate repetition range with a progressively heavier weight will accelerate fat loss with a toning effect. If a muscle group ever out paces fat loss, the bulking effect is only temporary. For a toning effect, fat can be lost later when aerobic exercise can be significantly increased or the weight training exercise(s) for that particular muscle can be ceased altogether. The muscle will atrophy to a pre-exercise girth within months. Higher repetitions training may be later implemented and assessed.


    http://www.exrx.net/WeightTraining/Myths.html

    take care

    Young
    I can't believe you're using an internet site. Dot net, com are not acceptable unless it has a study from a sports med college or better. They test everything that comes out. I don't, and won't consider an internet site unless it has EDU in it somewhere.
    The only things I see in that article that I agree w/ is that aerobics burns fat better. That's true. Read closely Young. Get your facts from an accredited source. I suggest ISSA, ACE, ACSM, NSCA, etc. ACSM being the best.
    Good luck w/ your research.
    By the way, what does FIT stand for?
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  4. #124
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh wow...

    Originally posted by martyds761
    I can't believe you're using an internet site. Dot net, com are not acceptable unless it has a study from a sports med college or better. They test everything that comes out. I don't, and won't consider an internet site unless it has EDU in it somewhere.
    The only things I see in that article that I agree w/ is that aerobics burns fat better. That's true. Read closely Young. Get your facts from an accredited source. I suggest ISSA, ACE, ACSM, NSCA, etc. ACSM being the best.
    Good luck w/ your research.
    By the way, what does FIT stand for?
    Everything is an internet site. This wasn't a study what I posted, but rather a reference to just outline for you. I know where I have gotten my studies, Im surprised you know about those considering you failed to give me a study.

    The site I reccomended is a pretty good sight and provides studies on some good topics. What I showed you was not meant to be a study.

    average fit person, is someone in shape.

    here are the actual studies/references used:
    http://www.exrx.net/Notes/References.html

    on top of that, high reps don't do much, but in fact will probably inhibit gains. They provide an increase in capillarity density, and on top of that, alot of lactic acid. Unless the sets of these high reps start lasting about 2 minutes, Its not aerobic work, therefore the fat it burns is minimal. You might be using creatine phosphate to resynthesize ATP, as opposed to ATP itself, but thats about it.


    Young
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  5. #125
    Member martyds761's Avatar
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    FIT stands for Frequency, Intensity, and Time Young.

    I looked at the site you posted. I wouldn't use it.

    As for aerobics lasting two minutes. A slow contraction of 12-14 lifts then immediatly move into another exercise like that will make it aerobics.
    That's just a form of circuit training. Which makes muscle grow and burns cals. I don't reccommend that kid of training unless it's a goal for the individual.
    As for this discussion, I'd rather have it w/ professionals. On to the real subject.

    That kind of training in the article may be good for some, but might want to keep it w/ athletic people. The average person can't do max stuff w/ a day of rest.

    I've donethis workout, but it didn't work for me. However, I have used it for some athletes.
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  6. #126
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    FIT stands for Frequency, Intensity, and Time Young.

    oh sorry, I thought you were reffering to the reference I posted. I didn't know you were going to take a word found in a dictionary and turn it into an acronym

    I looked at the site you posted. I wouldn't use it.

    thats fine. Thats just one sight anyway. I wouldnt use any of your techniques either. So I guess its even.

    As for aerobics lasting two minutes. A slow contraction of 12-14 lifts then immediatly move into another exercise like that will make it aerobics.
    That's just a form of circuit training.


    yeh, next time make that specific instead of saying "I use high reps to cut fat".

    Which makes muscle grow and burns cals. I don't reccommend that kid of training unless it's a goal for the individual.
    As for this discussion, I'd rather have it w/ professionals. On to the real subject.


    Muscles grow from aerobic work? Wow, I think you may have found (or made up) one of the most interesting facts I ever heard. I think Im going to go running now and build some huge quads. Go ahead and have it with "real" profressionals, and keep shocking your muscles and using high reps to cut

    That kind of training in the article may be good for some, but might want to keep it w/ athletic people. The average person can't do max stuff w/ a day of rest.

    what kind of training ?

    I've donethis workout, but it didn't work for me. However, I have used it for some athletes.

    yeh, um what workout?
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  7. #127
    Member martyds761's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Younglifter14
    [B]
    what kind of training ?

    yeh, um what workout?
    I'm not surprised you're confused Young. But, since this is originally an ARTICLE REVIEW board, I was talking about the workout in the article.
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  8. #128
    New Member RedDelPaPa's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Younglifter is a dork azz weenie

    15 years old , with a post count of 1750 says it all. The dumbazz must post 50 times a day. Young, you suck, and suck some more. Your a retard. A fool. A panzie. A nobody. I'd like to smack you around a little bit. Like your step daddy does. How does he keep from killing you? Your still alive, so he must not be to bad of a guy.

    I just got home from the gym. What have you been doing all day youngdork? Postin on the forums? What a rough day. Young, you poke fun at everything anybody says. You can talk your bull**** over this forum. But should you ever come face to face with one of us "men" on these forums, you will hang your head like a beaten basset hound.
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  9. #129
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    Re: Younglifter is a dork azz weenie

    Originally posted by RedDelPaPa
    15 years old , with a post count of 1750 says it all. The dumbazz must post 50 times a day. Young, you suck, and suck some more. Your a retard. A fool. A panzie. A nobody. I'd like to smack you around a little bit. Like your step daddy does. How does he keep from killing you? Your still alive, so he must not be to bad of a guy.

    I just got home from the gym. What have you been doing all day youngdork? Postin on the forums? What a rough day. Young, you poke fun at everything anybody says. You can talk your bull**** over this forum. But should you ever come face to face with one of us "men" on these forums, you will hang your head like a beaten basset hound.
    Hey Red, don't be too hard on Young. He's just 15 and learning. Still growing. All kids think they know everything. It's part of life.
    As for meeting one of us in person, he would rethink and probably even have questions for us. That happen to me at work the other day w/ a 16 yr old while I was training. This kid was pretty big too.
    Anyway, Young is still just a kid and will argue, think he knows it all, and keep throwing articles form non-accredited sources at us. Over look it and just try to tell him the right things. If he listens. great, if not, go on and keep trying to teach him. It's all we, as reasonable adults can do for a new athlete that just started two years ago.

    Peace.
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  10. #130
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    Originally posted by martyds761
    I'm not surprised you're confused Young. But, since this is originally an ARTICLE REVIEW board, I was talking about the workout in the article.
    oh, well since we had been talking about VARIOUS WORKOUTS, you shouldnt be surprised I asked the question.


    15 years old , with a post count of 1750 says it all. The dumbazz must post 50 times a day. Young, you suck, and suck some more. Your a retard. A fool. A panzie. A nobody. I'd like to smack you around a little bit. Like your step daddy does. How does he keep from killing you? Your still alive, so he must not be to bad of a guy.

    I just got home from the gym. What have you been doing all day youngdork? Postin on the forums? What a rough day. Young, you poke fun at everything anybody says. You can talk your bull**** over this forum. But should you ever come face to face with one of us "men" on these forums, you will hang your head like a beaten basset hound.


    great response dip****. Im so happy your telling me I have no life... do you always get mad over a debate on a sub forum?

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/member...o&userid=32126

    I post on average, 7 posts a day. That equates to about 5 minutes of my day. Feel stupid yet?

    you obviously havent been around here much either. Many people have over 10,000 posts.... within less then a year of registering. Feel stupid yet?

    Im sorry you couldnt back up your claims or debate with science, so had to turn to this. Its quite pathetic actually. Get your facts straight or dont post, or Ill just report your post to a moderator. I havent flamed anyone for ****, so as far as Im concerned, your wrong, your a dork, and your a "E-Thug"

    and I find you to be even more retarted if your willing to beat my like a basset hound and get your ass arrested becuase you lost an online debate

    take care

    Young
    Last edited by Younglifter14; 05-29-2004 at 11:05 PM.
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  11. #131
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    Re: Re: Younglifter is a dork azz weenie

    Originally posted by martyds761
    Hey Red, don't be too hard on Young. He's just 15 and learning. Still growing. All kids think they know everything. It's part of life.
    As for meeting one of us in person, he would rethink and probably even have questions for us. That happen to me at work the other day w/ a 16 yr old while I was training. This kid was pretty big too.
    Anyway, Young is still just a kid and will argue, think he knows it all, and keep throwing articles form non-accredited sources at us. Over look it and just try to tell him the right things. If he listens. great, if not, go on and keep trying to teach him. It's all we, as reasonable adults can do for a new athlete that just started two years ago.

    Peace.
    Hmm, I'm not sure whats going on here. Do you guys feel your losing a big argument or something? Im trying to have a friendly debate, and all im getting is im "a kid".

    Non credited sources, I showed you the studies you asked for. You have showed me nothing...

    let me say it again

    nothing

    just flames and bad names for no reason. If you dont have anything worthwhile to tell/show me, there is no reason to sink as low as to flame me. The board is here for debating, not flaming.

    Young
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  12. #132
    New Member RedDelPaPa's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: Younglifter is a dork azz weenie

    Non credited sources, I showed you the studies you asked for. You have showed me nothing...

    let me say it again

    nothing
    Who cares kid! What is it your looking for? A fast, easy way to get big and strong? Ain't gonna happen. Even steroids require some effort to grow. I read some of your "credited" bull**** kid. Not repping to absolute failure is a waste of time and money. You get out of lifting what you put into it. If you half azz your workouts, you get half azz results. You want "credited" information? Talk to the biggest and strongest bodybuilders in the sport. Ask them how they did it. Don't fall for the little weasel scientists that "think" they know how Arnold got so big. If you followed the so called "health experts", you'd know that one week they're saying eggs are good for you. The next week, they're saying their bad.

    Bodybuilding is just as much mental exercise as it is physical. Bust your guts in the gym. Eat lots of protein, and grow. It feels good and is mentally rewarding when you see your gut getting smaller, but the scale shows your gaining weight.


    just flames and bad names for no reason. If you dont have anything worthwhile to tell/show me, there is no reason to sink as low as to flame me. The board is here for debating, not flaming.
    There is a reason kid. You come in here poking fun at me(us), and insulting my(our) intelligence, expect to get kicked around.
    Last edited by RedDelPaPa; 05-30-2004 at 01:01 AM.
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  13. #133
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    Re: Re: Re: Younglifter is a dork azz weenie

    Originally posted by Younglifter14
    Do you guys feel your losing a big argument or something?

    Im trying to have a friendly debate, and all im getting is im "a kid".

    Non credited sources, I showed you the studies you asked for.

    just flames and bad names for no reason.

    The board is here for debating, not flaming.

    Young
    I don't feel like I'm losing anything. I enjoy a debate. I didn't enjoy a comment you made earlier. But, I have gone past that.

    You are a kid Young.

    The study you showed me didn't have anything of WHERE it came from. Who wrote it and what scientific base it came from.

    I'm not flaming, just stating a fact. Oh, and I haven't called you any bad names.

    Actually, the board is here for reviewing/debating articles that are posted. This one is originally a 3 day mass increase article.
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  14. #134
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Younglifter is a dork azz weenie

    Who cares kid! What is it your looking for? A fast, easy way to get big and strong? Ain't gonna happen. Even steroids require some effort to grow. I read some of your "credited" bull**** kid. Not repping to absolute failure is a waste of time and money.

    I can see why your so misinformed. "who cares"... well theres no point in debating something if you have nothing to show except insults. You obviously arent researching. Training to failure seems like commen sense inorder to promote hypertrophy, but in fact its not...

    read this: http://www.avantlabs.com/page.php?pageID=238&issueID=19

    dont go preaching your bull**** before you research. When I first found out you could trian a muscle every 2-3 days, I was like "thats overtraining". Then I thought about it and i realized, 7 days was just a bablyon reference to keep track of time, not for deciding when a muscle fully recovers. Keep researching before bull****ting

    You get out of lifting what you put into it. If you half azz your workouts, you get half azz results. You want "credited" information? Talk to the biggest and strongest bodybuilders in the sport. Ask them how they did it. Don't fall for the little weasel scientists that "think" they know how Arnold got so big. If you followed the so called "health experts", you'd know that one week they're saying eggs are good for you. The next week, they're saying their bad.

    thats totally inaccurate and just bull****. Look into HST and read that link I showed you. You will see your wrong. Instead of trying to use commen sense/logic to grow (which seems accurate, but in reality isnt), look into the real facts as they totally contradict each other and what your saying is the exact opposite. And theres a huge difference from health experts and training researchers. Check into alot of Mell Siff's writings and articles backed with every single study you can think of.

    You keep going by pros, thats fine. Dont yell at me when it suggests sticking needles in your ass at a certiain point. And to be honest, all the greatest powerlifters/strongman have trained with periodization. its quite funny how little you know. Like I said, research before trying to use commen sense

    here are the studies from the link I gave you showing the negatives and how failure isnt needed to grow:1. Andersen B, Westlund B, Krarup C. Failure of activation of spinal motoneurones after muscle fatigue in healthy subjects studied by transcranial magnetic stimulation. J Physiol. 2003 Aug 15;551(Pt 1):345-56. Epub 2003 Jun 24.

    2. Belhaj-Saif A, Fourment A, Maton B. Adaptation of the precentral cortical command to elbow muscle fatigue. Exp Brain Res. 1996 Oct;111(3):405-16.

    3. Deschenes MR, Giles JA, Kraemer WJ, et al. Neural factors account for strength decrements observed after short-term muscle unloading. Am J Physiol Regul Integr Comp Physiol. 2002 Feb;282(2):R578-83.

    4. Deschenes MR, Judelson DA, Kraemer WJ, et al. Effects of resistance training on neuromuscular junction morphology. Muscle Nerve. 2000 Oct;23(10):1576-81.

    5. Deschenes MR, Brewer RE, McCoy RW, Kraemer WJ. Neuromuscular disturbance outlasts other symptoms of exercise-induced muscle damage. J Neurol Sci. 2000 Mar 15;174(2):92-9.

    6. Deschenes MR, Maresh CM, Kraemer WJ, et al. The effects of exercise training of different intensities on neuromuscular junction morphology. J Neurocytol. 1993 Aug;22(8):603-15.

    7. Deschenes MR, Covault J, Kraemer WJ, Maresh CM. The neuromuscular junction. Muscle fibre type differences, plasticity and adaptability to increased and decreased activity. Sports Med. 1994 Jun;17(6):358-72. Review.

    8. Deschenes MR, Kraemer WJ. Performance and physiologic adaptations to resistance training. Am J Phys Med Rehabil. 2002 Nov;81(11 Suppl):S3-16. Review.

    9. Deschenes MR, Will KM, Booth FW, Gordon SE. Unlike myofibers, neuromuscular junctions remain stable during prolonged muscle unloading. J Neurol Sci. 2003 Jun 15;210(1-2):5-10.

    10. Gandevia SC, Allen GM, Butler JE, Taylor JL. Supraspinal factors in human muscle fatigue: evidence for suboptimal output from the motor cortex. J Physiol. 1996 Jan 15;490 ( Pt 2):529-36.

    11. Gandevia SC. Neural control in human muscle fatigue: changes in muscle afferents, motoneurones and motor cortical drive [corrected] Acta Physiol Scand. 1998 Mar;162(3):275-83. Review. Erratum in: Acta Physiol Scand 1998 Jul;163(3):305.

    12. Gandevia SC. Spinal and supraspinal factors in human muscle fatigue. Physiol Rev. 2001 Oct;81(4):1725-89. Review.

    13. Jones DA. Muscle fatigue due to changes beyond the neuromuscular junction. Ciba Found Symp. 1981;82:178-96.

    14. Jones DA. High-and low-frequency fatigue revisited. Acta Physiol Scand. 1996 Mar;156(3):265-70. Review.

    15. Kato T, Takeda Y, Tsuji T, Kasai T. Further insights into post-exercise effects on H-reflexes and motor evoked potentials of the flexor carpi radialis muscles. Motor Control. 2003 Jan;7(1):82-99.

    16. Lamb GD. Excitation-contraction coupling and fatigue mechanisms in skeletal muscle: studies with mechanically skinned fibres. J Muscle Res Cell Motil. 2002;23(1):81-91. Review.

    17. Liepert J, Kotterba S, Tegenthoff M, Malin JP. Central fatigue assessed by transcranial magnetic stimulation. Muscle Nerve. 1996 Nov;19(11):1429-34.

    18. Liu JZ, Shan ZY, Zhang LD, Sahgal V, Brown RW, Yue GH. Human brain activation during sustained and intermittent submaximal fatigue muscle contractions: an FMRI study. J Neurophysiol. 2003 Jul;90(1):300-12. Epub 2003 Mar 12.

    19. Liu JZ, Dai TH, Sahgal V, Brown RW, Yue GH. Nonlinear cortical modulation of muscle fatigue: a functional MRI study. Brain Res. 2002 Dec 13;957(2):320-9. Erratum in: Brain Res. 2003 May 30;973(2):307.

    20. Ljubisavljevic M, Milanovic S, et al. Central changes in muscle fatigue during sustained submaximal isometric voluntary contraction as revealed by transcranial magnetic stimulation. Electroencephalogr Clin Neurophysiol. 1996 Aug;101(4):281-8.

    21. Loscher WN, Nordlund MM. Central fatigue and motor cortical excitability during repeated shortening and lengthening actions. Muscle Nerve. 2002 Jun;25(6):864-72.

    22. Matyushkin DP, Krivoi II, Drabkina TM. Synaptic feed-backs mediated by potassium ions. Gen Physiol Biophys. 1995 Oct;14(5):369-81. Review.

    23. Nielsen JJ, Mohr M, Klarskov C, Kristensen M, Krustrup P, Juel C, Bangsbo J. Effects of high-intensity intermittent training on potassium kinetics and performance in human skeletal muscle. J Physiol. 2003 Nov 21

    24. Pasquet B, Carpentier A, Duchateau J, Hainaut K. Muscle fatigue during concentric and eccentric contractions. Muscle Nerve. 2000 Nov;23(11):1727-35.

    25. Pitcher JB, Miles TS. Alterations in corticospinal excitability with imposed vs. voluntary fatigue in human hand muscles. J Appl Physiol. 2002 May;92(5):2131-8.

    26. Russ DW, Vandenborne K, Binder-Macleod SA. Factors in fatigue during intermittent electrical stimulation of human skeletal muscle. J Appl Physiol. 2002 Aug;93(2):469-78.

    27. Sejersted OM, Sjogaard G. Dynamics and consequences of potassium shifts in skeletal muscle and heart during exercise. Physiol Rev. 2000 Oct;80(4):1411-81. Review.

    28. Siff, MC. Supertraining. 2002. Supertraining Institute, Denver USA.

    29. Taylor JL, Butler JE, Allen GM, Gandevia SC. Changes in motor cortical excitability during human muscle fatigue. J Physiol. 1996 Jan 15;490 ( Pt 2):519-28.

    30. Taylor JL, Butler JE, Gandevia SC. Altered responses of human elbow flexors to peripheral-nerve and cortical stimulation during a sustained maximal voluntary contraction. Exp Brain Res. 1999 Jul;127(1):108-15.

    31. Todd G, Taylor JL, Gandevia SC. Measurement of voluntary activation of fresh and fatigued human muscles using transcranial magnetic stimulation. J Physiol. 2003 Sep 1;551(Pt 2):661-71. Epub 2003 Aug 08.

    32. Wallinga W, Meijer SL, Alberink MJ, Vliek M, Wienk ED, Ypey DL. Modelling action potentials and membrane currents of mammalian skeletal muscle fibres in coherence with potassium concentration changes in the T-tubular system. Eur Biophys J. 1999;28(4):317-29.

    33. Zatsiorsky, VI. Science and Practice of Strength Training. 1995. Human Kinetics.

    34. Powell JA, Molgo J, Adams DS, Colasante C, Williams A, Bohlen M, Jaimovich E. IP3 receptors and associated Ca2+ signals localize to satellite cells and to components of the neuromuscular junction in skeletal muscle. J Neurosci. 2003 Sep 10;23(23):8185-92.

    there are plenty more out there as well.

    Bodybuilding is just ...blah,blah,blah, look how misinformed I am

    Much better



    There is a reason kid. You come in here poking fun at me(us), and insulting my(our) intelligence, expect to get kicked around.

    No, I wanted a simple friendly debate, and you came around with the insults or degrading names. Go read over your posts. I just wanted reasoning for your ideas.

    Young
    Last edited by Younglifter14; 05-30-2004 at 11:48 AM.
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Younglifter is a dork azz weenie

    I don't feel like I'm losing anything. I enjoy a debate. I didn't enjoy a comment you made earlier. But, I have gone past that.

    Dont call me kid then. Its simple

    You are a kid Young

    nice. and your an adult. I bet you feel like an idiot now

    The study you showed me didn't have anything of WHERE it came from. Who wrote it and what scientific base it came from.

    the text I showed you wasn't a study, it was an article which included a study. Lets get that straight. Then I sent you the link which showed all the references/studies the sight has used to create its articles. but you are simply ignoring that. But hey, tell me what it is where talking about, and Ill go get some real studies if you want. just dont cry and call it "scientific jumbo"

    I'm not flaming, just stating a fact. Oh, and I haven't called you any bad names.

    bad names isnt the only way to insult someone. Go back and read your posts

    Actually, the board is here for reviewing/debating articles that are posted. This one is originally a 3 day mass increase article.

    Yeh, did I miss something? Like I said "The board is here for debating, not flaming."

    Young
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    I'm done w/ this debate. However, I'm going to read those that you listed Young. I have the journals of physiology.

    Peace
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    Originally posted by martyds761
    I'm done w/ this debate. However, I'm going to read those that you listed Young. I have the journals of physiology.

    Peace
    Im not sure how you will like them since I am a kid who uses pure science and facts for reasoning rather then guesses

    Young
    Last edited by Younglifter14; 05-30-2004 at 09:56 PM.
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    I started the workout earlier this week and am feeling massively sore. I'll post my results, but already I'm up a little bit. I am a newbie though, so perhaps I'd be making dramatic gains on just about any workout.

    I have a tough time keeping within the 47 minutes!
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    Thumbs up Marty and Young's arguement

    Well done you two!

    What a fantastic arguement (sorry debate).

    I must admitt, Young knows his stuff, and although he does seem a little eager to argue, he certainly presents an impressive case, whether he is 15 years old or not. In fact I reckon Young presented more valid points than anyone else, and didn't resort to being ageist.

    Young, if you are as passionate and sensible with your Training as you are debating on this forum, you will go a long way!!

    Check out my Business website (not 100% complete)

    www.pro-matrixinternational.com

    If anyone wants to send me articles or pictures, i will put them up.
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    Re: Marty and Young's arguement

    Originally posted by Japester
    Well done you two!

    What a fantastic arguement (sorry debate).

    I must admitt, Young knows his stuff, and although he does seem a little eager to argue, he certainly presents an impressive case, whether he is 15 years old or not. In fact I reckon Young presented more valid points than anyone else, and didn't resort to being ageist.

    Young, if you are as passionate and sensible with your Training as you are debating on this forum, you will go a long way!!

    Check out my Business website (not 100% complete)

    www.pro-matrixinternational.com

    If anyone wants to send me articles or pictures, i will put them up.
    thanks alot. Someone will be checking out the link

    feel free to check out my journal also

    take care

    Young
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    Thanks Japester.

    Young, if I get a chance to scan the journal articles from the physiology journal, I'll send it to you. There's sooooo much more in the articles that isn't in the one you posted.

    Peace
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  22. #142
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    Cool

    While this exercise is good to work all the body muscles thoroughly, I have always trained with a two day cycle of lifting which excludes legs, done every other day(6 days)

    Mon. - Chest, Upper Back, Shoulders
    Tues. - Biceps, Triceps, Abs
    Wed. - Chest, Upper Back, Shoulders
    Thurs. - Bicepts, Triceps, Abs
    Fri. - Chest, Upper Back, Shoulders
    Sat. - Biceps, Triceps, Abs
    Sun - Watch Football

    This is 4 sets of about 10 reps, with a total of 7 exercises for a days workout. Usually only the last one or two sets are fatigue sets. So essentially I am alternating upper torso day with a day for arms and abs, with about 7 machines/lifts per day.

    This is an intense upper body workout, with daily low intensity/short time period cardio/leg exercises. (distance walking, shooting baskets, bike riding, or sprint running less than 20 min)

    I have found my body can heal pretty well on this schedule with about a week off every month and a half. I recommend eating at LEAST 100 grams of protein a day and adjust your carb/fat intake to the amount of aerobic activities you partake in.

    Began program at 160 lb, 6 ft.
    4 month period on this - gained 10 lbs - 170 lbs.

    8 month period on this - gained 20 lbs - 190 lbs. - 6 ft.

    Throughout this my body fat percent and all that have pretty much stayed the same, at average or a number above.

    The times I have gone off this lifting schedule, I have upped my aerobic exercise with distance running or swimming. I have never lost any of the 30 pounds of muscle I put on during my lifting during this period. I have been very satisfied with the muscle growth when on my program, especially because it all occured in the upper body.

    I tend to be very skeptical of anyone putting on pounds in week long periods. Natural weight gain takes months/years of slugging it out on a daily basis. Also, I caution against the immediate desire to up your weight quickly in lifts. Remember, good form is more important for isloation than a good weight amount in growth bodybuilding.

    Also, I highly recommend a high seafood diet. The proteins that seem to heal me up the best and the quickest are the traditional egg whites and almost any kind of seafood, especially fish.
    please send your replies or comments by email as well to vivatuanis@yahoo.com
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  23. #143
    Had a good time
    Guest

    Thumbs up

    Young 14 - change your name to 'Wise14', or '14'.

    I am not kidding. Your logic is outstanding. Your knowledge of the matter is deep.

    For guys who think that people's capabilities/knowledge is to be judged based on age - yes, MOST OF THE TIME.

    Here is a living example that there are exceptions. While all YOU could say was, 'OK kid, you will learn it later", 'Young14' showed his knowledge to be WAY, WAY superior to yours. Yeah, book knowledge. And who writes books?

    And who writes articles? Do you realize that getting hands on experience with 50 people is not equal to a result of a randomized blind trial involving 2x that many? or even a trial with HALF AS MANY, for God's sake. And while science does change its opinion VERY often - eg. vitamins, are they beneficial? - it is not, as Y14 put it what YOU THINK - but rather what has been SHOWN to be effective.

    But when you both resolved to calling Y14 a 'kid'....that was FUNNY. And, i liked the PHD student's intro .... i am doing my phd.... dude. that doesnt make you smarter. trust me. Are you trying to tell me that there are no people who are younger and smarter than their older counterparts? Given that you dont know who y14 is, you cant say, 'you will learn it later'. he may have already. for all i know, he does not need a phd. he is better than that.

    now, i am not trying to cause some kind of an argument. i will never probably visit this forum again. all i was trying to say is that critical thinking is way to go, and y14 won the debate. hands down. and for the rest of us - that was a lesson. do your homework. dont just live on stories handed down from your friends/colleagues.

    y14 - congratulations. thanks for teaching me a lesson. i am 32, btw.
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  24. #144
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    Thumbs up 3 day workout (e.g., full body workout)

    In general i liked the routine but then i'm biased as it's pretty much the same routine i've been using for the past few months.

    * It's a time saver; i look forward to the every other day off.
    * It's forgiving; if i miss a day i just pick up the next day. No rejuggling everything.
    * Recovery time;
    - every other day feels pretty good to me. It is, afterall, pretty close to 48 hours between workouts.
    - like Olivia Newton John sings, "Listen to Your Body Talk". And, sometimes, it's saying, "hey, take an extra day off here".

    Because of time constraints, age, injuries and arthritis i've done some optimizations that work for me;

    * i've ordered body parts starting from large to small; e.g., legs, chest, back, shoulders, traps, arms, abs. Big groups get the little groups pre-warmed and good to go.

    * i do 3 sets for each body part;
    - a high (15 - 20) rep (lower weight) set. It's more than a warm up. i call it a working set because i really have to work for the last few. Form is very good and i really squeeze the muscle.
    - a medium (8 - 12) rep set. A traditional body builder set. Form is still good.
    - a low (3 - 5) rep (heavy weight) set. A traditional strength/size builder set. Weight is everything.

    Comments:
    * This is more than a beginner's routiine BUT it IS a GR8 beginner's routine. A beginner typically responds favorably to most anything and everything but since this offers everything in a uniform, balanced and symetrical way it's a good start to a balanced and symetrical physique (rather than the strange beach look of Pecs 'n' biceps balanced on a pair of stilts).

    * At my age it's hard to crank up intensity / add weight everyday but, with the above, i can usually add a rep or a plate somewhere. In fact, at my age, anyday i don't have to drop a weight or rep ain't a bad day :-)

    * The high rep set is more than a warm up. It's a working set. It's also a guage. It's a safe way to inventory for abnormal pain. Arthritis is like that. So is being old. Some days are better than others. If it doesn't feel right i either pass or stay with high reps that day.

    i've also clumped body parts into complimentary pairs so i can do everything as antagonistic supersets;
    * Quads / hammies (and/or calves for good measure).
    * Chest / back
    * Shoulders / traps
    * BIs / TRIs
    * abs
    * E.G., i do a chest exercise and while the chest is resting run over to a back exercise. When i finish the back exercise i run back to the chest exercise (as it should be rested even though i'm not :-) i go through the whole workout like that. The only "rest" is running to machines or setting up.

    Low boredom factor;
    * doing 40 minutes of chest or BIs was boring. And the all the rests only added to the time required further exacerbating the boredom. All the running, changes and variety seems to keep me interested, challenged and motivated.
    Last edited by joewattie; 07-22-2004 at 09:50 AM.
    joe
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    Re: Oh wow...

    Originally posted by Younglifter14

    The thing im not liking is that your attributing your gains becuase you "shocked" a muscle, when in reality, you progressive overloaded or added more frequency or something of that sort.

    Young [/B]
    Little long but i enjoyed and learned from this ongoing dialogue. Unfortunately i think the jest of the disagreement was in the venacular. i think it is encumbant on the learned, the experienced and the seasoned to come to an agreed upon definition of terms to better further the discussion.

    Yes, wearing a pink tutu would certainly be a shock, a shock that would do nothing for the muscles (save for the added effort in uh defending yourself).

    And i think most agree on intensity and/or progressive overload for development.

    But, after months of leg lifts and leg curls i was "shocked" at the pain (a good pain) i felt trying to cross the street after switching to squats. Or the burn i felt the next day after a body builder had me do less weight with greater "intensity" (squeeze the lift) and more reps. i don't know what to call the phenomenum but i like it. And when the gains slow down i switch again. Maybe it's as simple as alternating between tweaking the slow twitch fiber and the fast twitch?

    Or maybe it does fall into the intensity / overload catagory and i'm just not seeing it?

    Thanks.
    Last edited by joewattie; 07-22-2004 at 01:44 PM.
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  26. #146
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    Hi

    Hi there,

    Basically, young doesn't know what is being refered to when I say "shocking" your muscles. He wants to attribute all gains to some scientific jibrish. The fact is, just like you found out. The human body is highly adaptive, and will stop responding to training if it keeps getting what it expects.

    The human body, if left to it's own devices, does not want to grow larger muscles than it needs for day to day life, and will do everything in its power to avoid growing larger. You have to "force" your body to grow larger. This means you have eat truckloads of food to ensure your body has what it needs to grow, and to consistently trick your muscles by stressing them in a manner they are not expecting. That's why changing routines, or taking a week break are the best ways to break through a plateau.

    Have fun,
    N8
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  27. #147
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    Re: Re: Oh wow...

    Originally posted by joewattie
    Little long but i enjoyed and learned from this ongoing dialogue. Unfortunately i think the jest of the disagreement was in the venacular. i think it is encumbant on the learned, the experienced and the seasoned to come to an agreed upon definition of terms to better further the discussion.

    Yes, wearing a pink tutu would certainly be a shock, a shock that would do nothing for the muscles (save for the added effort in uh defending yourself).

    And i think most agree on intensity and/or progressive overload for development.

    But, after months of leg lifts and leg curls i was "shocked" at the pain (a good pain) i felt trying to cross the street after switching to squats. Or the burn i felt the next day after a body builder had me do less weight with greater "intensity" (squeeze the lift) and more reps. i don't know what to call the phenomenum but i like it. And when the gains slow down i switch again. Maybe it's as simple as alternating between tweaking the slow twitch fiber and the fast twitch?

    Or maybe it does fall into the intensity / overload catagory and i'm just not seeing it?

    Thanks.
    feeling a burn doesnt mean anything, I wouldnt contribute much to it. But yeh, if your not gaining, "switch" things around... meaning your going to be switching a couple of exercises, or changing your rep range and see how you respond to that. Your not going to go from 2 sets to 30 sets to shock a muscle or change bench press to dips and expect growth like never before.

    You see, redzepplaala or whoever he is, is trying to prove based on his limited logic and knowledge that switching things around will cause growth...what he says is so damn broad and generalized. But when he does give examples of what he says anyway, you see that hes atrributing this "shocking" to really just changing an exercise, maybe adding more weight (from lowering reps), or something like that. From this he draws a conclusion muscles need to be shocked, and Im just trying to explain to him that nothing he is doing is so incredible, but rather really ordinary, hes really just ends up adding weight which is progressive loading or changing exercises to avoid neural strength aquistion, etc. But hes trying to claim what hes doing is required and people are drawing the wrong conclusion from what he and his friend are saying....Like I said what he said is broad, so people are going to think if there not gaining its time to add in 20 sets in an attempt to shock muscles, or time to hit that muscle 4x a week to shock it. I try to educate him explaining what hes doing, and he snaps and acts like a 5 yr old. Now hes going on saying I dont know what Im talking about
    Last edited by Younglifter14; 07-23-2004 at 12:45 AM.
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    Originally posted by RedDelPaPa
    Hi there,

    Basically, young doesn't know what is being refered to when I say "shocking" your muscles. He wants to attribute all gains to some scientific jibrish. The fact is, just like you found out. The human body is highly adaptive, and will stop responding to training if it keeps getting what it expects.

    The human body, if left to it's own devices, does not want to grow larger muscles than it needs for day to day life, and will do everything in its power to avoid growing larger. You have to "force" your body to grow larger. This means you have eat truckloads of food to ensure your body has what it needs to grow, and to consistently trick your muscles by stressing them in a manner they are not expecting. That's why changing routines, or taking a week break are the best ways to break through a plateau.

    Have fun,
    N8
    Its funny, you ressurect the argument after everything is over, and everyone is saying how your wrong, yet your still trying to tell me "I dont know" what im talking about?

    amazing, truly amazing.... "scientific jiberish" right. Now go look and see who doesn't know what there talking about...literally

    Your a complete moron, really though Im sorry for dissing you, I dont like to start flame wars, but come on its true. I'm not sure what else too say, keep thinking changing your workouts are going to result in some unknown phenomon causing huge growth, Ill go attribute it to my scientific jibberish...you go attribute it to your 4 year old vocabulary, It's not my fault you haven't learned anything about this within 40 yrs of your life span

    Oh yeh, Ill say it again, no one thinks your right, swallow your pride already and get off my damn tail, your just arguing for the sake of arguing cause you don't want to feel like you lost an argument or anything like that especially to someone half your age. Its okay, I really dont care, your the one failing to understand, grow up, mature and cut out the insults, and research...oh yeah, your already 40, thats going to be pretty hard to do all of this if it hasn't been done already
    Last edited by Younglifter14; 07-23-2004 at 12:37 AM.
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  29. #149
    joe joewattie's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Re: Oh wow...

    Originally posted by Younglifter14
    feeling a burn doesnt mean anything, I wouldnt attribute much to it. But yeh, if you're not gaining, "switch" things around... meaning you're going to be switching a couple of exercises, or changing your rep range and see how you respond to that. Your not going to go from 2 sets to 30 sets to shock a muscle or change bench press to dips and expect growth like never before.

    "feeling a burn doesnt mean anything" ... now i'm shocked :-)

    "neural strength aquistion" ???

    In an effort to better understand i was going to offer a couple of annecdotes but, upon closer inspection, i can attribute most of my observations to loading, e.g.;

    * Went from leg presses of 3 - 400 lbs. *down* to squats at 135 lbs. i was "shocked" by the pain and agony. Closer inspection suggests that most of the pain was in the butt and hamstrings. A squat is not a leg press, it is a super set of a leg press involving much more than quads. And probably overloaded the hammies and glutes more than my leg curls were. Guess i gotta attribute it (my perception of pain equaling growth?) to overload/intensity?

    * Went from heavier arm curls to lighter arm curls with more reps and it felt "more better"; burn near end of sets with next day muscle soreness/fatigue. Quick calculation of foot pounds showed i was doing more "work". Overload and intensity again?

    * Ditto with squats.

    * Ditto seated dip machine and tricep presses. This time foot pound calculation didn't hold but i had also radically altered my style. A lot less shoulder w/ more focus on triceps. Tricep probably doing more work than before (guess i gotta find a new shoulder exercise :-) Chalk it up to progressive overload and increased intensity again.

    * Now it's too bad i don't keep a log. In my foggy memory it seems i'm always adding plates and or reps but it's only when i make a radical change --i.e., going from heavy weight / low rep to light weight / high rep-- that i get that "good feeling" (burn followed by recovery pain).

    And without a log i have no way of correlating whether that "good feeling" correlates with any meaningful gains (strength or size wise). And your suggestion was that it means nothing anyway, something that i can't refute, but, i can suggest that it's a signal that recruitment is taking place?

    So when i start a routine, something new, like lifting again after a few years off, i "recruit" anything and everything? And the feeling is "ouch".

    When i'm done recruiting i begin building (by continuing with progressive over load). Changes are incremental. Feelings are pleasant but nothing notable.

    Then i change from low rep / heavy weight to high rep / light weight. Focus switches from fast twitch fiber to slow twitch fiber? resulting in some slow twitch recruitment? and that "good feeling" again?

    Hey, i don't know. It's not unusual for me to pop up something silly and learn from the resultant feedback.
    joe
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    Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh wow...

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by joewattie
    "feeling a burn doesnt mean anything" ... now i'm shocked :-)

    I could get a burn from doing 100 reps, honestly I dont think its a good indicator of growth. With that being said, I dont know what to think about your post, If I posted My real opinon I would really have these guys on my tail with my "scientific jibberish"

    "neural strength aquistion" ???
    The reason the first time you do an exercise you can add so much weight the next time is becuase of this, motor units start recruiting better and snchronizing.
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