Best rep range for outright mass, not bothered about strength?

[kyusho]

When you train with low reps (1 - 5), the adaptations that make you stronger are mostly neurological: You develop an increased ability to recruit more muscle fibers, you stimulate the higher threshold fibers that are not activated with high rep, low weight sets, you decrease neuromuscular inhibition, and there is increased coordination between the muscle groups. However, with low reps, the hypertrophy (size increase) of the muscle fibers is minimal. In other words, reps under 6 make you stronger, but they don?t necessarily make you bigger because the strength gains come from adaptations in the nervous system.

I read this information today, and am just wondering if this is correct. The personal trainer at my gym told me that higher reps are better for mass while all the body building books I have purchased have said heavy, low rep sets are better for building mass.

Is the info stated above correct? If so, how come most mass bodybuilding books such as ?The Secrets to Gaining Muscle Mass by Anthony Ellis and Muscle Gain Truth by Sean Nalewanyj? use the principle of low reps (5-7 or lower) with heavy weights in the workout programs?

[olinerules87]

I'm not a big believer in you gotta do 6-12 reps for hypertrophy like most people are. I believe hypertropy comes more from volume (sets x reps).

one set of 8 does meet most people "hypertrophy rep requirements" but isn't enough volume to cause hypertrophy

but 10x3 doesn't meet most people "hypertrophy rep requirements" but is enough volume to cause hypertrophy

[Mysterious One]

A total rep range of 36-50 is pretty much ideal (as outlined by CHad Waterbury - and I very much agree with him).

SO set/rep schemes of, for example, 5 x 10, 4 x 12, 5 x 8, 6 x 6, etc are all good for maximum hypertrophy.

Play around, see what your body can handle and how well you recover from specific set/rep schemes. Find what works for you.

[BOLT.]

It depends. But any with any rep range you have to get stronger in that rep range in order for mass to follow. Now a lot of people tend to stick to lower reps for the big compound movements and higher rep ranges for the accessory movements.

I personally found that lower rep ranges work better for me with the occasional high rep range cycle. For example I've been hitting 4x5 on the bench for a long time and continued to get stronger with 5 reps. Then I spent two weeks doing a repetition effort bench with 135 and when I came back I had gotten a little stronger on my 5RM.

So basically it all kind of works together but some people grow better in certain rep ranges due to their builds. And the majority of people end up somewhere between 5 and 15 reps for hypertrophy.

[kyusho]

Very interesting.. whay is there so much bull**** floating around? I have wasted years of my life training on low rep scemes with a combined rep/set range equalling no more than 25 total reps- i.e 5x5, 4x6 and 3x8

..pissed of does not begin to describe my feelings but i thank you for showing me the light. Why do so many people persist in insisting low reps heavy weights = hypertrophy when actually they promote strength rather than maximal hypertrophy.

here are three extremely interesting reads;


[link=http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=620430]Manipulating Reps for Gains in Size and Strength[/link]

[link=http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=651322]The Set/Rep Bible[/link]

[link=http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=267max2]Training For Maximal Size[/link]

Would anyone be so kind as to point me in the direction of a routine that would provide somone with maximal hypertrophy. I dont give a **** about strength... i want to get as large as humanly possible!

[Mysterious One]

It depends. But any with any rep range you have to get stronger in that rep range in order for mass to follow. Now a lot of people tend to stick to lower reps for the big compound movements and higher rep ranges for the accessory movements.

I personally found that lower rep ranges work better for me with the occasional high rep range cycle. For example I've been hitting 4x5 on the bench for a long time and continued to get stronger with 5 reps. Then I spent two weeks doing a repetition effort bench with 135 and when I came back I had gotten a little stronger on my 5RM.

So basically it all kind of works together but some people grow better in certain rep ranges due to their builds. And the majority of people end up somewhere between 5 and 15 reps for hypertrophy.

Getting stronger is a no-brainer. If you don't progressively add weight to the bar you will never get bigger no matter what rep-range you use. 5 x 5 is fantastic for a strength emphasis (which you pointed out in your post), but it's not metabolically taxing enough for maximum size.
There's a reason why bodybuilders and powerlifters genrally stick to very contrasting set/rep schemes.

The OP stated he doesn't really care about his max bench or increasing his deadlift or whatever. He just wants to get as big as possible. And you need volume for that.

[Serpens Aeon]

Use all repetition ranges. They all have their advantages and disadvantages.

[kyusho]

Mysterious one- I will tell you my story.

Initially i lifted on higher volume routines. I signed up to a bodybuilding forum (not this one) a few years ago and was told i was going about thing the wrong way. I was advised, and adopted the 5x5 routines that so many advocate. However, i got very very strong without much size! My diet was spot on... I couldn't understand it. What was going wrong? I researched, i read books... still most of my reading suggested low reps, heavy weights, low volume! Maybe it was selctive reading, maybe i didnt listen to the higher volume arguments, but recently i have read articles and receieved advise like yours that make me see the light... I can't believe how many people steered me onto the less is more low rep low volume powerlifting routine for hypertrophy! Years have been wasted!

Now i love higher reps, higher volume routines! For me, that is much more enjoyable that lifting excessively heavy weights. I am glad that this is the case... also many people told me that it doesnt matter how fast reps are performed, but with the high volume training for hypertrophy i have read it is of paramount importance to have a true 3 second ecccentric phase for upmost maximal hypertrophy?

I know the set/rep ranges i now need to use for my quest to ultimate size, where can i find the routine? most routines on here seem hybrid strength/hypertrophy routines when all i care about is size...

big thanks for your help so far.. i'll give you some of those rep points when i found out how to use them!

Getting stronger is a no-brainer. If you don't progressively add weight to the bar you will never get bigger no matter what rep-range you use. 5 x 5 is fantastic for a strength emphasis (which you pointed out in your post), but it's not metabolically taxing enough for maximum size.
There's a reason why bodybuilders and powerlifters genrally stick to very contrasting set/rep schemes.

The OP stated he doesn't really care about his max bench or increasing his deadlift or whatever. He just wants to get as big as possible. And you need volume for that.

[BaSsSiKk]

Lift heavy in control in rep range of around 6-8, go home, eat well, sleep = grow...

[Mysterious One]

Very interesting.. whay is there so much bull**** floating around? I have wasted years of my life training on low rep scemes with a combined rep/set range equalling no more than 25 total reps- i.e 5x5, 4x6 and 3x8

..pissed of does not begin to describe my feelings but i thank you for showing me the light. Why do so many people persist in insisting low reps heavy weights = hypertrophy when actually they promote strength rather than maximal hypertrophy.

here are three extremely interesting reads;


[link=http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=620430]Manipulating Reps for Gains in Size and Strength[/link]

[link=http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=651322]The Set/Rep Bible[/link]

[link=http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=267max2]Training For Maximal Size[/link]

Would anyone be so kind as to point me in the direction of a routine that would provide somone with maximal hypertrophy. I dont give a **** about strength... i want to get as large as humanly possible!

Very good links. I'm glad you found that website.

Here are two very good programs for building size:

Anti-Bodybuilding Hypertrophy http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459341

Anti-Bodybuilding Hypertrophy II http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=459211

If you are relatively experienced to the Iron game then do the part II routine. That website has some good, insightful training routines. Just ask around there for a good mass-routine. That being said, Training For Maximal Size I hear is a very good routine as well.

Now, the reason why set/rep schemes of 8 x 3, 10 x 3, 12 x 4, etc are so good for size (yes they build strength as well, it sucks I know ) is because you are using around 80% of your max for all sets (in other words, HEAVY WEIGHTS), while keeping the total volume high.
Compare 10 x 3 to its polar opposite, 3 x 10. With the 10 x 3 you will be using a WHOLE lot more weight than with 3 x 10, which... you guessed it... will give you huge muscles.

If you're experienced you could try a hypertrophy-specific split, but if you don't have a proper base, just to full body, or upper/lower. Or maybe even Push/Pull.

Hope this helped.

[Mysterious One]

Mysterious one- I will tell you my story.

Initially i lifted on higher volume routines. I signed up to a bodybuilding forum (not this one) a few years ago and was told i was going about thing the wrong way. I was advised, and adopted the 5x5 routines that so many advocate. However, i got very very strong without much size! My diet was spot on... I couldn't understand it. What was going wrong? I researched, i read books... still most of my reading suggested low reps, heavy weights, low volume! Maybe it was selctive reading, maybe i didnt listen to the higher volume arguments, but recently i have read articles and receieved advise like yours that make me see the light... I can't believe how many people steered me onto the less is more low rep low volume powerlifting routine for hypertrophy! Years have been wasted!

Now i love higher reps, higher volume routines! For me, that is much more enjoyable that lifting excessively heavy weights. I am glad that this is the case... also many people told me that it doesnt matter how fast reps are performed, but with the high volume training for hypertrophy i have read it is of paramount importance to have a true 3 second ecccentric phase for upmost maximal hypertrophy?

I know the set/rep ranges i now need to use for my quest to ultimate size, where can i find the routine? most routines on here seem hybrid strength/hypertrophy routines when all i care about is size...

big thanks for your help so far.. i'll give you some of those rep points when i found out how to use them!

Glad I could help. Different things work for different people. My body responds very well to high-rep work as well.

Below is a routine I made myself (you don't have to follow it, but I'm just giving you some ideas about what rep-schemes work for me and the general frequency):

Day 1:
Back Squat 4 x 8-10
Flat Bench Press 8 x 3-4
Close-grip Pulldown 8 x 3-4
Behind Neck Press 4 x 10-12 [Wide-grip]
Reverse-grip Pushdown 3 x 12-15
Decline Crunch 3 x max [with added weight]

Day 2:
Deadlift 4 x 6-8
Close-grip Bench Press 4 x 10-12
Barbell Row 4 x 10-12
Upright Row 3 x 12-15
Barbell Curl 3 x 12-15

Day 3:
Back Squat 4 x 8-10
Flat Bench Press 8 x 3-4
Close-grip Pulldown 8 x 3-4
Behind Neck Press 4 x 10-12 [Wide-grip]
EZ-bar Skull Crushers 3 x 12-15
Decline Crunch 3 x max [with added weight]


Notice I also use the 8 x 3 scheme because it really is very good for hypertrophy.

Also, the volume is quite high. The trick is NOT TO GO TO FAILURE. This is a 3 x per week full-body routine that is awesome for size, but with this kind of frequency you must make sure that you keep a 'rep in da bank'. So you should be able to lift one or two reps more but you won't. This keeps your CNS from frying.

But hey, there is no perfect routine. Just pick a routine and work your ass off, and EAT your ass off (important this one), and you will see mass gains.
Even the crappiest prgram performed balls-to-the-wall will give you results.

Anyway... I have been ranting too much. I suggest reading T-Nation a lot.

Good luck man, if you have any questions just ask.

[PowerManDL]

Chances are if you got "very very strong" and "were eating right", neither of the quoted statements is true.

Nobody that got "very very strong" while eating enough for size has stayed small.

[Mysterious One]

Nobody that got "very very strong" while eating enough for size has stayed small.

I agree.

[kyusho]

i'm not partilcarlay small.

[PowerManDL]

Then why are you complaining about not being able to gain mass and having wasted time?

If you're not small, and got very very strong on 5x5, what exactly are you complaining about?

[all pro]

Best rep range for outright mass, not bothered about strength?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
When you train with low reps (1 - 5), the adaptations that make you stronger are mostly neurological: You develop an increased ability to recruit more muscle fibers, you stimulate the higher threshold fibers that are not activated with high rep, low weight sets, you decrease neuromuscular inhibition, and there is increased coordination between the muscle groups. However, with low reps, the hypertrophy (size increase) of the muscle fibers is minimal. In other words, reps under 6 make you stronger, but they don?t necessarily make you bigger because the strength gains come from adaptations in the nervous system.

I read this information today, and am just wondering if this is correct. The personal trainer at my gym told me that higher reps are better for mass while all the body building books I have purchased have said heavy, low rep sets are better for building mass.

Is the info stated above correct? If so, how come most mass bodybuilding books such as ?The Secrets to Gaining Muscle Mass by Anthony Ellis and Muscle Gain Truth by Sean Nalewanyj? use the principle of low reps (5-7 or lower) with heavy weights in the workout programs?

The best rep range for mass is 25-50 reps.
From 8 sets of 3 to 2 sets of 12.
Which way is the best depends on if you want total mass or just lean mass.
BTW the author is making a generalization when he says that 3 reps won't add mass. 10 sets of 3 reps WILL add mass.

[kyusho]

As said above though 10x3 is the polar opposite of 3x10 and with 3x10 more weight would be shifted in total. Would 3x10 be better than 10x3 for maximal hypertrophy.

As for the powermandl above question- i am reasonably big. look at my avatar. I am only interested in getting as large as possible in the quickest possible time. 5x5 is therfore not the answer- gains have stgnated. other information suggests higher volume is the answer. I have asked a question to help establish an answer so please,pretty please with a cherry ontop- stop the bull**** questioning and thinking im a noob. Ideally yes i want lean msucle mass gains- as a bodybuilder i feel bodyfat should never exceed 15% for a man.

[PowerManDL]

As said above though 10x3 is the polar opposite of 3x10 and with 3x10 more weight would be shifted in total. Would 3x10 be better than 10x3 for maximal hypertrophy.

As for the powermandl above question- i am reasonably big. look at my avatar. I am only interested in getting as large as possible in the quickest possible time. 5x5 is therfore not the answer- gains have stgnated. other information suggests higher volume is the answer. I have asked a question to help establish an answer so please,pretty please with a cherry ontop- stop the bull**** questioning and thinking im a noob. Ideally yes i want lean msucle mass gains- as a bodybuilder i feel bodyfat should never exceed 15% for a man.

Stop posting like a noob and I'll stop treating you like one.

When you tell me you've gotten "very very strong", and are "reasonably big" (there's no avatar visible), but still seem to think there's some magic program you're missing, that's noob talk and I'll respond accordingly.

If you were as advanced as you seem to think, you'd realize that your very question is flawed. There ain't no magic program. Eat more, pick a program, and keep progressing.

[kyusho]

Why is it then, it is suggested that for maximal hypertophy one needs to implement stress on muscles for 40-60 seconds per set, whereas less than 20 seconds promotes strength.

Now unless you think everyone on 5x5 looking for hypertophy uses an true 8 second rep you will see why i have raised this question

[PowerManDL]

Why is it then, it is suggested that for maximal hypertophy one needs to implement stress on muscles for 40-60 seconds per set, whereas less than 20 seconds promotes strength.

Because as a general rule that's the case.

You're just making the typical mistake of thinking that TUT has to be continuous, and can't accumulate over multiple-set workouts.

The better idea is to shoot for a total rep range, and a good ballpark is 20-60 reps per part, per session.

Now unless you think everyone on 5x5 looking for hypertophy uses an true 8 second rep you will see why i have raised this question

Because TUT alone is irrelevant. The time-tension integral is much more important, and is more related to workload than it is to "how long you lifted the weight".

[Mysterious One]

As said above though 10x3 is the polar opposite of 3x10 and with 3x10 more weight would be shifted in total. Would 3x10 be better than 10x3 for maximal hypertrophy.

As for the powermandl above question- i am reasonably big. look at my avatar. I am only interested in getting as large as possible in the quickest possible time. 5x5 is therfore not the answer- gains have stgnated. other information suggests higher volume is the answer. I have asked a question to help establish an answer so please,pretty please with a cherry ontop- stop the bull**** questioning and thinking im a noob. Ideally yes i want lean msucle mass gains- as a bodybuilder i feel bodyfat should never exceed 15% for a man.

You're thinking about this irrationally.

Why would lifting a smaller weight grow more muscle, when the total volume is the same (both 10 x 3 and 3 x 10 add up to 30 total reps)?

Building muscle is all about progressive overload. Thats all it is.What do you think is going to overload a muscle more - 30 reps done with 70% of your max, or 30 reps done with 85% of your max?
Now, add 1 rep to each set (so you have 10 x 4). Thats 40 total reps, ten more than the previous workout.
This kind of progression overloads the sh!t out of your muscles, when compared to the vanilla 3 x 10.

Here's a good article to read if you still aren't convinced the 10 x 3 protocol isn't dynamite for your muscles:

The Science of 10 x 3 http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle....5-011-training

[all pro]

As said above though 10x3 is the polar opposite of 3x10 and with 3x10 more weight would be shifted in total. Would 3x10 be better than 10x3 for maximal hypertrophy.

As for the powermandl above question- i am reasonably big. look at my avatar. I am only interested in getting as large as possible in the quickest possible time. 5x5 is therfore not the answer- gains have stgnated. other information suggests higher volume is the answer. I have asked a question to help establish an answer so please,pretty please with a cherry ontop- stop the bull**** questioning and thinking im a noob. Ideally yes i want lean msucle mass gains- as a bodybuilder i feel bodyfat should never exceed 15% for a man.

First of all you have no avatar or you are invisible. Secondly if time under tension were all that was required Super Slow training wouldn't have died a horrible but merciful death. Thirdly, the quickest path to size is to cause hypertrophy of NON contractile proteins. That means multiple sets of 8+ reps. And finally if that is all you do you are likely to stall pretty quick because you won't gain strength fast enough to keep increasing the weight. Weight lifted per minute and time under CONTINUOS tension are more important than just total time under tension for gaining size only. One look at any of the better mass programs will show you that 5-6 sets of 5 reps of the same weight or 3-4 sets of 8 reps at the same weight are about the most common set ups.

[The King 33]

I have recieved the best gains by variety. Try giant sets which for me is 40 rep sets. the next week i do sets of 4-6, the following i for sets of 8-12, then 20 rep sets the week after that. The point is, no one range will always work for size. I think as long as your body does not adapt to any one range, your doing ok in the size game. Just make sure that nothing is easy for you. I have tried Waterburys methods and actually lost size.

[Mysterious One]

I have tried Waterburys methods and actually lost size.

Interesting. Because the kind of training that you describe you do is pretty much the fundamentals of Chad's training ideas (varying set/reps, constant variation).

Have you tried the Total Body Training program?

[BOLT.]

Getting stronger is a no-brainer. If you don't progressively add weight to the bar you will never get bigger no matter what rep-range you use. 5 x 5 is fantastic for a strength emphasis (which you pointed out in your post), but it's not metabolically taxing enough for maximum size.
There's a reason why bodybuilders and powerlifters genrally stick to very contrasting set/rep schemes.

The OP stated he doesn't really care about his max bench or increasing his deadlift or whatever. He just wants to get as big as possible. And you need volume for that.

Correct but his bench and deadlift are gonna go up whether he likes it or not if he wants to get bigger. It doesnt have to mean your 1RM is the #1 factor, but it'll definitely go up as his 8-12RM goes up.

Very interesting.. whay is there so much bull**** floating around?

Beats me I guess because everyone tried something different and if it works they go on the side of the street telling everyone to do their new training style and give a scientific explanation why nothing else works. If you've been doing low reps forever switch to higher reps like 10-15 and see if that works.

[BOLT.]

Interesting. Because the kind of training that you describe you do is pretty much the fundamentals of Chad's training ideas (varying set/reps, constant variation).

Have you tried the Total Body Training program?

I also found Waterbury's philosophies rather in way left field. And I mean wayyy waaaayyyy left field. I cant even understand most of his programs.

[The King 33]

Interesting. Because the kind of training that you describe you do is pretty much the fundamentals of Chad's training ideas (varying set/reps, constant variation).

Have you tried the Total Body Training program?

I cannot remember the name of it but its the one where you workout for ten days full body then take 5 days off. After that you repeat the cycle. You workout every bodypart everyday varying grips and reps. Not enough volume for me. He also said do not train to failure. When I was done with that routine, I lost weight on every exercise i did when i did things the way i learned. It was cool because i was never sore but i felt like a fat blob

[BOLT.]

I cannot remember the name of it but its the one where you workout for ten days full body then take 5 days off. After that you repeat the cycle. You workout every bodypart everyday varying grips and reps. Not enough volume for me. He also said do not train to failure. When I was done with that routine, I lost weight on every exercise i did when i did things the way i learned. It was cool because i was never sore but i felt like a fat blob

lol you might have just not done it right. He always has 20-page articles and there's never any chance in hell I'm gonna keep up with the whole thing and ultimately understand his new program.

But hey you gotta remember in his last article. EVERYTHING IS ABOUT TO CHANGE.

[jdmalm123]

Very interesting.. whay is there so much bull**** floating around? I have wasted years of my life training on low rep scemes with a combined rep/set range equalling no more than 25 total reps- i.e 5x5, 4x6 and 3x8

ALL REP RANGES WILL MAKE YOU BIGGER as long as you still have room for improvement in that fiber-type. You didn't waste time for several reasons.

1. Strength training is functional, bodybuilding is not.
2. The strength will allow you to bodybuild with greater intensity.
3. You probably maximized your Type-II fiber poential (for now).
4. You are primed for a new routine.

Your only error was not training with more variety. Strength and size are different, but they work together. To simplify, you have to go through a strength phase in order to bodybuild with weights that will keep you growing.

[kyusho]

I do have a picture up, i can see it on my bodyspace page. I dont know why it is not appearing on the forum yet but then again i dont know how this forum works either.

I'll cut the small talk and get to my point, what would you recommend is the best routine for me to follow for absolute maximal hypertrophy? Is there a routine that does, as suggested, mixes up various rer ranges and stimulates the body in a new way instead of remaining on the same rep range continulously?