Strength and legs

[imperfectly_lou]

I plan to return to Max-OT training, or a slightly modified version of it, in about 3 weeks from now. I did Max-OT last year, finishing in late August and was really happy with the results.

On Max-OT, my legs were where I saw my best results, and they were pretty big and strong. Fortunately, I have not lost any of the mass in that area that I gained.

I don't want my legs any bigger. I have only just managed to find jeans that fit me! I have very narrow shoulders which I am trying to widen to bring my body more into proportion. I like the mass in my legs, but would like a little more definition (which will come via fat loss I know) and strength.

So what do you think I should do for leg training? I DO know that endless reps is pretty useless for my physique. Should I train them fortnightly or what?

[egoatdoor]

Lou, its OK to do Max OT for other body parts and a different routine for legs.

How about 15 or 20 rep sets for the legs? But do make sure the weight is not too light, that it is somewhat challenging..at 15, 16 or 17, it starts to get tough, but you still have enough to finish the 20th. This can build lean muscle in the legs, (as well as give a boost to your heart rate) but not bulk.

[bscrusher]

the other thing you could try is a strength only protocol.

do squats only, and maybe calf press.

you can do squats every other day but i think 1 or 2 times a week will serve better, at least to start.

use 80 to 95% of your 1rm.

keep the reps at 2 or 3

rest 2-5 minutes between sets.

do as many sets as you can in 20 to 40 minutes.

if you starve, nothing will work.


p.s. actually the 20 rep squat program is one of the most famous BULKING programs there is. there is a book by dr. randall strossen, you can buy it on the ironmind website.

[imperfectly_lou]

that sounds interesting.... so do 2-3 reps per set?

what is the 20rep squat program?

oh and will this give sufficient stress to my hamstrings?

the other thing you could try is a strength only protocol.

do squats only, and maybe calf press.

you can do squats every other day but i think 1 or 2 times a week will serve better, at least to start.

use 80 to 95% of your 1rm.

keep the reps at 2 or 3

rest 2-5 minutes between sets.

do as many sets as you can in 20 to 40 minutes.

if you starve, nothing will work.


p.s. actually the 20 rep squat program is one of the most famous BULKING programs there is. there is a book by dr. randall strossen, you can buy it on the ironmind website.

[Emma-Leigh]

that sounds interesting.... so do 2-3 reps per set?

Yup - MAX effort type training... You might want to look into westside training - it is an interesting combination of dynamic effort lifts (these are things such as box squats where you use lighter weights and you focus on speed) and maximum effort type lifts (low reps, high weight).

There is a good outline here: http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength...asefordeep.htm

what is the 20rep squat program?

Ok - I know two 20 rep squat programs:
1. 'The 20 rep squat' - Otherwise known as the "puke your guts out, can't move for an hour, sit on the floor under the rack until someone politely moves you out of the way" set of hell. You use your 10 rep max and you do 20 reps with it. The last 10 reps having to be done in a pause-rep type manner. Hurts like hell, and you certainly can't do it every week unless you want to kill yourself!

2. '20 rep squat routine' - which is a specific training routine... ummm... I have read about it somewhere, but can not remember the specifics. But if I do remember correctly it is primarily a mass gaining program not a strength program... ???

oh and will this give sufficient stress to my hamstrings?

I wouldn't think so - esp. for most females who have weak posterior chains..

I would throw in some glute-ham raises and mix it up with SLDL/romanian deads and seated or prone leg-curls...

[imperfectly_lou]

I am feeling very confused!

I like the look of the stuff you sent me Emma, but I think I have to read over it some more.

I assume the Westside training is a whole body training philosophy? It looks good, I will try to do some more research on it

Thanks

[Emma-Leigh]

I am feeling very confused!

LOL - It gets a bit like that with all the gabble of information out there!

Here is info on the '20 rep squat routine':
http://www.ironworkout.com/20_rep_squat.htm

As for the '20 rep squat', here is a little article on it:
http://www.cyberpump.com/preview/sean010.html
Very few people actually do the '20 rep squat' properly, because very few actually put on enough weight. I would not imagine that anyone sane would attempt the REAL thing performed in the correct way as a weekly thing.

I like the look of the stuff you sent me Emma, but I think I have to read over it some more.

I assume the Westside training is a whole body training philosophy? It looks good, I will try to do some more research on it

Yeah, it is a whole body thing but I am sure you could take some of the principles of the workout and apply it to legs and leave your upper body for a more hypertrophy based training style.

[imperfectly_lou]

LOL - It gets a bit like that with all the gabble of information out there!

Here is info on the '20 rep squat routine':
http://www.ironworkout.com/20_rep_squat.htm

I like the look of this... it seems like the focus here would be on muscle endurance to me, would that be correct? And they only talk about one set?

As for the '20 rep squat', here is a little article on it:
http://www.cyberpump.com/preview/sean010.html
Very few people actually do the '20 rep squat' properly, because very few actually put on enough weight. I would not imagine that anyone sane would attempt the REAL thing performed in the correct way as a weekly thing

owwww, that looks awesome..... maybe a once a month thing? Again, only one set is mentioned?

This is why I ask 3 weeks in advance! I like to think everything through

If I was to add in some hamstring work e.g. SLDL, would I do that on a separate day?

[imperfectly_lou]

Ok still thinking outloud...

Is there any benefit to combining all of these ideas together? Or am I better choosing one and sticking with it...

Because I am thinking... I could do something like 4 weeks alternating cycle

Week 1 - The 2-3 rep strength training protocol as suggested by bcrusher
Week 2 - Plyometric style training
Week 3 - The 20-rep squat routine
Week 4 - A lighter week, higher reps, similar to that suggested by egoatdoor

[Emma-Leigh]

I like the look of this... it seems like the focus here would be on muscle endurance to me, would that be correct? And they only talk about one set?

Not really endurance - that would be the case if you could do a set of 20 in full (as in, no pauses, straight out, up down rhythmic reps). The weight you use in this set is moderate, so it harder and the set is done with adequate 'breaks' between reps. It is all about the load - the weight is greater than that you would use for endurance, so you stress your muscles more...

And yes, it is only 'one working set' but it is done after a few warm up sets.

owwww, that looks awesome..... maybe a once a month thing? Again, only one set is mentioned?

Monthly?? Arggg!! You ARE keen.

This is the type of thing that BsCrushers statement of "if you can do exercises after this, then you didn't do it correctly" rings true. I am deadly serious here. I was being truthful when I described it before - I know professional lifters who can not even MOVE after this. Literally, they have to sit down under the rack right there and then and their muscles cramp up and they see spots and they shake and it then takes them all their strength to stumble into the change rooms after a few minutes where some of them DO puke their guts out.

When it is done correctly it is THAT intense.

You are a brave girl for thinking about giving it a go - I know that I can't do it. My squat is not strong enough (core strength and posterior chain is not up to par so I can't use my real 10 rep max... Also, I just suck at squatting, damn long femurs... ).

I really, really suggest you do not try the real thing until your squats are spot on. But work up to it - use a lighter weight and start doing rest-pause sets. Also, start doing max. rep work and dynamic effort type work - they will also help you. Single legged squats will also help - as these can really increase your core strength and your form will improve a LOT.

If I was to add in some hamstring work e.g. SLDL, would I do that on a separate day?

If you are doing a true 20 rep squat, you might want to wait a week...

But if you are doing other things and you wanted to hit your hamies HARD to compensate for quad dominance in your squats then I would swap the SLDL for something like glute-ham raises (if you don't have a machine, use a seated calf or lat pull - they can easily be modified for the purpose)... Or combine them in your workout.

You probably can't put enough direct stress on your hammies with SLDL to correct the imbalance.

[StlBarbie]

But if you are doing other things and you wanted to hit your hamies HARD to compensate for quad dominance in your squats then I would swap the SLDL for something like glute-ham raises (if you don't have a machine, use a seated calf or lat pull - they can easily be modified for the purpose)... Or combine them in your workout.

You probably can't put enough direct stress on your hammies with SLDL to correct the imbalance.

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I am learning a lot from this thread! I am totally understanding now why my hammies are lacking beyond my quads. I was really relying on sldl to equalize things. Lou, I love all your questions and thoroughness because this is exactly where I am at with my legs, more or less! I am wondering what they will think of me at the gym when I modify the lat pull for the glute/ham raise! Like they don't give me enough looks already!! lol Emma great solutions.. as always!

[Ravenous_T]

Westside is an excellent program. I would highly suggest you look into it.

[bscrusher]

that sounds interesting.... so do 2-3 reps per set?

what is the 20rep squat program?

oh and will this give sufficient stress to my hamstrings?

i think emma is guiding you right lou, an adventure into the westside world may be just the thing for you.

core strength is an issue, as your legs may be more strong than your core in the squats. you can finish off a killer squat session in a number of ways that will protect your exhausted lower back.

put a lifting belt on near the end of a set when you feel your back getting squirrely.

near the end of a set switch to a lift that does not put so much pressure on the lower back, like barbell hacks, or sissy squats.

finish off your hams with glute/ham raise or some similar move.

use you imagination, i am sure you can find a way to totally smoke your legs.

[Emma-Leigh]

are you asking if SQUATS will give you "sufficient stress" to your mamstrings?

It is a good question - and her concerns are actually very relevant. Often, if people are not great squatters (and especially if they have weak posterior chains) they do not sufficiently stress their hamstrings enough as their (relatively) stronger quads will dominate the exercise and their hammies are never correctly engaged...

Infact MRI imaging of muscles during varies exercises have shown that some of the hamstrings are barely engaged during a typical back squat regardless...

(specifically, biceps femoris and semitendenosus have about 0 stimulation... The adductors actually get more - but even they only a moderate hit - it is really a quad dominated exercise as these get a max. stimuation...).

On the other hand, if you look at exercises such as the SLDL and the prone leg curl then these two muscles will get a moderate activation when doing this exercise... Glute-ham raises (although not studied) I believe, would be even more effective in stressing the hamstrings.

Now you are going to argue 'total stress'/'total load' (aka - most people can squat more poundage than they can leg curl) and all that crap - but the underlying issue is that until the underlying weakness is specifically targeted and corrected then the quads will continue to dominate and the activation of the hamstrings in the squat will never occur to a sufficient extent - so they will never 'catch up'...

[Emma-Leigh]

i think emma is guiding you right lou, an adventure into the westside world may be just the thing for you.

core strength is an issue, as your legs may be more strong than your core in the squats. you can finish off a killer squat session in a number of ways that will protect your exhausted lower back.

put a lifting belt on near the end of a set when you feel your back getting squirrely.

near the end of a set switch to a lift that does not put so much pressure on the lower back, like barbell hacks, or sissy squats.

finish off your hams with glute/ham raise or some similar move.

use you imagination, i am sure you can find a way to totally smoke your legs.

LOL - decided to change your approach BsCrusher??


Lou - I agree (to some extent) with BsCrusher in that you certainly want to make sure you focus on strengthening your core up if you are going to get into maximal lifts... Westside puts a lot of emphasis on this (each session has ab and lower back work) and you might want to look at doing some gymnastic tension exercises as well (these are great for core strength)...

Also - full cleans (aka - going into a full squat) and exercises such as the snatch and overhead squat are just about one of THE BEST core workout you can do (seriously... Plus, they are REALLY fun!! )... So maybe consider starting some of this type of stuff?

As for weekly 'swapping' of routines - It is not a bad idea, but I think you are doing too much swapping! LOL!! What about a fortnightly thing. eg:

Week 1: Max effort squating (strength work), glute-ham raises, core work
Week 2: Dynamic effort (speed work such as box squats, split squats, plyometric work) + SLDL/leg curls, core work

Then just alternate between them...

If you are doing heavy deads or other full body lifting (eg: cleans) then you will also hit your legs with these so you don't have to worry too much about 'de-training' between sessions.

[bscrusher]

hi emma, well as you see, i fired off that first question pretty quick, but then i read some of your posts and saw you really were adressing the issues i was thinking of pretty well.

just squats will stimulate anyone's hams PLENTY, especially if they are done in the powerlifting style with shins vertical. i also think lou should keep her new project as simple as possible.

certainly there is no harm with the judicious use of supplemental lifts to insure hams get smoked like they should and/or to bring up core strength.

a person could, however, do squats and deadlifts only, for a very long time, and make excellent progress.

[egoatdoor]

hi emma, well as you see, i fired off that first question pretty quick, but then i read some of your posts and saw you really were adressing the issues i was thinking of pretty well.

just squats will stimulate anyone's hams PLENTY, especially if they are done in the powerlifting style with shins vertical. i also think lou should keep her new project as simple as possible.

certainly there is no harm with the judicious use of supplemental lifts to insure hams get smoked like they should and/or to bring up core strength.

a person could, however, do squats and deadlifts only, for a very long time, and make excellent progress.

I'm sorry Lou, but I don't understand why you are listening to what this guy has to say. #1, I recall in another thread he said some nasty things about you. #2 In this thread, he said something disparaging about you starving yourself. #3 He always answers every question from a powerlifters perspective (notice once again he talks above about doing powerlifter type squats) and that is the forum he should be in. No authority on BODYBUILDING would ever suggest that squats alone would ever provide total stimulation to the hams such that one would never have to do any direct hamstring work. Bodybuilders train differently from powerlifters, but he is continually pontificating powerlifting methods as the solution to every question at the exclusion of anything that resembles true bodybuilding.

Anyway, I had to speak my mind on this matter. You can take it or leave it.

And BS, don't bother responding to me as I will ignore it.

[bscrusher]

I'm sorry Lou, but I don't understand why you are listening to what this guy

i understand why, and so does lou, and so do many others. lou is considering my ideas because they are proven to be rock solid in accuracy and relevance.

has to say. #1, I recall in another thread he said some nasty things about you. #2 In this thread, he said something disparaging about you starving yourself.

everything i have ever written to, or about lou has been with the intent of making lou, and the other readers, stronger and better people, physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually. often i must give the reader blunt, unvarnished truth. the accuracy and relevance of my writing in this area is proven also.

#3 He always answers every question from a powerlifters perspective (notice once again he talks above about doing powerlifter type squats)

anyone who does a tiny bit of research or experimentation will find that the powerlifting squat is safer, more natural and more effective for ALL applications, then the typical weak bb squat.

and that is the forum he should be in. No authority on BODYBUILDING would ever suggest that squats alone would ever provide total stimulation to the hams

many have, and do. you are way behind the learning curve goat.

such that one would never have to do any direct hamstring work. Bodybuilders train differently from powerlifters, but he is continually pontificating powerlifting methods as the solution to every question at the exclusion of anything that resembles true bodybuilding.

Anyway, I had to speak my mind on this matter. You can take it or leave it.

And BS, don't bother responding to me as I will ignore it.

what a strange little ending to your rather rambling and infantile posting goat. "don't bother responding"? i wonder what made you write such an odd thing. but i do not wonder very much.

once again goat, you are out of your depth, adults are discussing things on this thread that you do not, and can not understand. lou can understand that i am her ally, but you can not.


...

[imperfectly_lou]

I am learning lots from this, but I have one question first before I can begin to digest all this info

Bcrusher, you refer to a powerlifting squat? How is that different from a regular BB squat?

[Ravenous_T]

A powerlifting stance usually has a wider leg spread, and you sit back more. More glute/ham activation rather than quad.

[imperfectly_lou]

A powerlifting stance usually has a wider leg spread, and you sit back more. More glute/ham activation rather than quad.

Thanks Ravenous

[imperfectly_lou]

I have had a look into glute-ham raises and the closest thing we have to that piece of equipment is the back extension and I have a feeling that wouldn't do the job....

I do need to work on my squat. Having long legs and an old knee injury has prevented me from having the courage to hit the squats hard, but I am ready for a challenge!

The more I think about all of this, the more I think that I would be better off skipping the Max-OT and taking some of its principles and adding them to the ideas you guys have given me and coming up with something unique.... I am still really confused about Westside though so I am going to have to do some more reading.

Thanks

[Emma-Leigh]

I have had a look into glute-ham raises and the closest thing we have to that piece of equipment is the back extension and I have a feeling that wouldn't do the job....

Lou - use a seated calf machine. Stack on the plates and adjust the knee bar to the lowest height, then just hook your heels under and use that.

You can also do the same thing with the knee bar on the lat pull.

There really is no substitute for the exercise. It is about 100x harder than a SLDL.

I do need to work on my squat. Having long legs and an old knee injury has prevented me from having the courage to hit the squats hard, but I am ready for a challenge!

Great!

The more I think about all of this, the more I think that I would be better off skipping the Max-OT and taking some of its principles and adding them to the ideas you guys have given me and coming up with something unique.... I am still really confused about Westside though so I am going to have to do some more reading.

I like that idea - combine and experiment!

I'll try to pull up some westside info from various sources and post the links if you like...

[imperfectly_lou]

That would be great, thanks Emma

[Emma-Leigh]

A powerlifting stance usually has a wider leg spread, and you sit back more. More glute/ham activation rather than quad.

Yup - Ravenous is right.

The bar sits lower on your back as well.

Here is a powerlifting squat

[imperfectly_lou]

Ok, keeping in mind my goals here...

I know that, as I am not a beginner, I can't expect to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, but I live in hope!

I would like to reduce my BF by around 3-5%, while increasing the strength and definition in the muscles.

I don't want my legs bigger, but definitely stronger and a stronger core too.
I really want to increase the size of my shoulders and arms to bring them into proportion with the rest of my body

I DO know, that endless hours of cardio are NOT FOR ME.... yes, it has taken me nearly 3 years but I have finally worked it out! :P

[Emma-Leigh]

I know that, as I am not a beginner, I can't expect to lose fat and gain muscle at the same time, but I live in hope!

Don't doubt it. It CAN happen with anyone, at any stage in training!

You just have to put your body into the right state.

I DO know, that endless hours of cardio are NOT FOR ME.... yes, it has taken me nearly 3 years but I have finally worked it out! :P

YAY Lou!!!

Some of the info on westside I have bookmarked (not sure how much is 'good'):
http://www.elitefts.com/
http://www.westside-barbell.com/
http://www.bodybuildinguniverse.com/routine21.htm
http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/article-...de-barbell.asp
http://www.hardcorebodybuilding.net/...tyle/index.htm
http://www.ironlife.com/mag/issue4/westside.htm
http://www.anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=822
http://www.ironaddicts.com/articles/westsidemod.htm



Oh - and I found these in my bookmarks as well and thought you might be interested:
http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/magazine/xrayvision.htm
Excellent article on all the different things you want to work on for your body!

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=547470
And this is an article on stimulation of your fast twitch fibres (heavy loads or explosive movements)...

[Ravenous_T]

Lou, just wanted to say I think that it's awesome that you are looking into this type of training. You'll be amazed at how effective it is.

Emma gave you some excellent links to check out for info on westside training. I highly recommend elitefts and deepsquatter. Two excellent sites.


Also wanted to note that if you do not have a glute ham raise, you can improvise by placing your legs under the feet of a power rack and elevating your knees on some thick padding. A natural glute ham raise is extremely hard though - even harder than one done on a machine.

Another very good exercise for the glutes,hams, and lower back is the reverse reverse hyperextension. unfortunately you really need the machine to get the full effect and most gyms do not have them.

[imperfectly_lou]

Still thinking about all this, gosh you must all be getting sick of me by now!

Ok so I think I like Emma-Leigh's suggestion

[quote Week 1: Max effort squating (strength work), glute-ham raises, core work
Week 2: Dynamic effort (speed work such as box squats, split squats, plyometric work) + SLDL/leg curls, core work[/quote]

I'm still not too sure about how I am going to work the glute-ham raises, but where there is a will there is a way!

One thing I am not so sure about is the box squats. So I actually sit on the box? And where does the "speed" issue come into play. All the articles use the word "speed" but I haven't really found anything that explains the concept!

Another thing, how long should these workouts go for? I am thinking max of 45mins?

[Ravenous_T]

Still thinking about all this, gosh you must all be getting sick of me by now!

Ok so I think I like Emma-Leigh's suggestion

Week 1: Max effort squating (strength work), glute-ham raises, core work
Week 2: Dynamic effort (speed work such as box squats, split squats, plyometric work) + SLDL/leg curls, core work

I'm still not too sure about how I am going to work the glute-ham raises, but where there is a will there is a way!

One thing I am not so sure about is the box squats. So I actually sit on the box? And where does the "speed" issue come into play. All the articles use the word "speed" but I haven't really found anything that explains the concept!

Another thing, how long should these workouts go for? I am thinking max of 45mins?

I'm about to head off to bed, but here's agood Dave Tate article on Westside that will give you a better explaination of speed work:

http://www.deepsquatter.com/strength...asefordeep.htm

Basically, you are using explosive force in your reps. Try to use the mentality that you are lifting at your ME weight so you have maxium force, effort, and speed even though you are lifting lighter.