Evolution can NOT coexist with Islam, Christianity, or Judaism!

[JAGERBOY]

Christians, Jews and Muslims, please stop saying that evolution can coexist with your religions! According to YOUR religious texts, it cant!

For Muslims:

Clearly we can see from the following text that man was made as he is NOW from clay. There was not evolution, he was made as he is now to form into nations and tribes. He started the creation of HUMANS from clay, he didn't start the formation of a single celled organism or glob of RNA from clay, he created HUMANS from clay.

"Oh humankind! We created you from a single pair of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, so that you may know each other (not that ye may despise each other). Verily the most honoured among you in the sight of Allah is the who is the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)" (49:13).

"We created the human being from aged mud, like the potter's clay. ..." (15:26).

" He is the One who perfected everything He created, and started the creation of the human from clay. "(32:7-8).


Christians and Jews:

Clearly we can see that not only did God make the animals with NO evolution, he also once again created humans with no evolution. It clearly states he places a MAN in the garden....it says nothing about placing an ape, or a glob of RNA in the garden that eventually evolved into humans. Also, simple celled organisms don't have bones or flesh, so dont use the argument that "Adam" could have just been that lone glob of DNA/RNA that started it all.

"Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." Genesis 1:26

"Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed." Genesis 2:8

"Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

The man said,
"This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called 'woman,'
for she was taken out of man." Genesis 2:22-23


SOURCES:
http://www.submission.org/
http://www.biblegateway.com

[jackal337]

Christians, Jews and Muslims, please stop saying that evolution can coexist with your religions! According to YOUR religious texts, it cant!

For Muslims:

Clearly we can see from the following text that man was made as he is NOW from clay. There was not evolution, he was made as he is now to form into nations and tribes. He started the creation of HUMANS from clay, he didn't start the formation of a single celled organism or glob of RNA from clay, he created HUMANS from clay.

"Oh humankind! We created you from a single pair of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, so that you may know each other (not that ye may despise each other). Verily the most honoured among you in the sight of Allah is the who is the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)" (49:13).

"We created the human being from aged mud, like the potter's clay. ..." (15:26).

" He is the One who perfected everything He created, and started the creation of the human from clay. "(32:7-8).

Just because they don't mention evolution doesn't mean it contradicts it.

[outlikeatrout]

If you believe that God is all-powerful, then He could have created things any way He wanted. Therefore whatever science discovers, God created and by definition there can be no contradiction.

/Thread

[Rune]

Just because they don't mention evolution doesn't mean it contradicts it.

If you believe that God is all-powerful, then He could have created things any way He wanted. Therefore whatever science discovers, God created and by definition there can be no contradiction.

/Thread

Yes, but is the bible not suppose to be the words of God? Why would it say that he created humans then? Why not say "hey, I made a bunch of little molecules that would one day make your bodys" seems like a bit of a big oversite there does it not?

You want to know why theres no mention of it? Because, the bible was written by men 2000 years ago who did not even have the slightest clue about molecular biology or the processes that could actaully create intellegent beings.

[jackal337]

Yes, but is the bible not suppose to be the words of God? Why would it say that he created humans then? Why not say "hey, I made a bunch of little molecules that would one day make your bodys" seems like a bit of a big oversite there does it not?

You want to know why theres no mention of it? Because, the bible was written by men 2000 years ago who did not even have the slightest clue about molecular biology or the processes that could actaully create intellegent beings.

Why does the Koran not go into detail about how God created humans? Another question would be, why does it need to?

[Rune]

Why does the Koran not go into detail about how God created humans? Another question would be, why does it need to?

I didn't make any mention of the Koran did I? Besides that completely side-steps my question.

I never said it needs to, only that the story in the bible about how god created man is in confict with evolutionary theory.

[skinnycalves]

Just because they don't mention evolution doesn't mean it contradicts it.

are you ****ing kidding me? created from clay as we are now is at odds with evolution, there is absolutely nothing you can say

If you believe that God is all-powerful, then He could have created things any way He wanted. Therefore whatever science discovers, God created and by definition there can be no contradiction.

/Thread

Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[outlikeatrout]

Yes, but is the bible not suppose to be the words of God? Why would it say that he created humans then? Why not say "hey, I made a bunch of little molecules that would one day make your bodys" seems like a bit of a big oversite there does it not?

I don't know why God does what He does. His plan is not for us to understand.

You want to know why theres no mention of it? Because, the bible was written by men 2000 years ago who did not even have the slightest clue about molecular biology or the processes that could actaully create intellegent beings.

(As an aside, notice how the questions center around "WHY".)

[outlikeatrout]

I didn't make any mention of the Koran did I? Besides that completely side-steps my question.

I never said it needs to, only that the story in the bible about how god created man is in confict with evolutionary theory.

It is not. You have yet to provide such a contradiction.

[outlikeatrout]

...
Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Is that the best you can do? You didn't point out flaws in my logic or anything. And name calling will get you nowhere.

[jackal337]

I didn't make any mention of the Koran did I? Besides that completely side-steps my question.

I never said it needs to, only that the story in the bible about how god created man is in confict with evolutionary theory.

The OP included the Koran in his post and that is what I was addressing. I never said anything about the bible did I?

[Rune]

I don't know why God does what He does. His plan is not for us to understand.

So your essentially saying that the entire bible could be a whole load of crap, made up stories just for God's own ****s and giggles?

(As an aside, notice how the questions center around "WHY".)

Most philosophical and scientific inquiries useually do. Thats the nature of human beings, to question.

[Rune]

It is not. You have yet to provide such a contradiction.

The bible says we were made from clay, evolution says that we were made from lone amino acids... sounds like a pretty big contradiction to me. Is there something I'm missing here?

[skinnycalves]

Is that the best you can do? You didn't point out flaws in my logic or anything. And name calling will get you nowhere.

"If you believe that God is all-powerful, then He could have created things any way He wanted. Therefore whatever science discovers, God created and by definition there can be no contradiction"

this is what you said

you do realize religion is purely belief, while science is almost 100% fact with substantiated evidence, do you believe God will tell you one thing and do the other? the flaw in your logic is that God is not substantiated while science is, if scientists figure otu time travel and see the big bang, and see humans evolving, you will still believe in the bible? so no matter what kind of concrete proof science puts on the table you will put a 2000 year old book above it, because you believe in God, God may very well be all powerful but do you think he would decieve us?

[Rune]

The OP included the Koran in his post and that is what I was addressing. I never said anything about the bible did I?

Yes, but my original line of questioning didn't mention it, mainly as I do not know enough about Islamic faiths to make any kind of arguments against their teachings. I just find it odd that you try to redirect me.

[jackal337]

The bible says we were made from clay, evolution says that we were made from lone amino acids... sounds like a pretty big contradiction to me. Is there something I'm missing here?

Yes there is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_life#Clay_theory

[outlikeatrout]

The bible says we were made from clay, evolution says that we were made from lone amino acids... sounds like a pretty big contradiction to me. Is there something I'm missing here?

If God is all powerful then He can do whatever He wants with clay. Are you starting to see the underlying concept here? If God is all powerful then you can't give an example of something He couldn't do.

Except maybe microwave a burrito so hot that even He couldn't eat it. (yes Simpson's reference)

[Rune]

If God is all powerful then He can do whatever He wants with clay. Are you starting to see the underlying concept here? If God is all powerful then you can't give an example of something He couldn't do.

Except maybe microwave a burrito so hot that even He couldn't eat it. (yes Simpson's reference)

Yes but the bible says he made Adam from clay. Not that he made proteins or anything else from clay, which in turn eventually created man (this view point only came about in the overwhelming evidence for natural selection and evoloution - coincidence?). This is my point - that the bible is explicit in our origins.

[outlikeatrout]

"If you believe that God is all-powerful, then He could have created things any way He wanted. Therefore whatever science discovers, God created and by definition there can be no contradiction"

this is what you said

you do realize religion is purely belief, while science is almost 100% fact with substantiated evidence,

Hence: "If you believe..."

do you believe God will tell you one thing and do the other?

I don't know why God does what He does.

the flaw in your logic is that God is not substantiated while science is,

Hence: "If you believe..."

if scientists figure otu time travel and see the big bang, and see humans evolving, you will still believe in the bible?[/QUOTE]

No. If God is all powerful, what's to stop Him from creating the world via big bang/evolution?

so no matter what kind of concrete proof science puts on the table you will put a 2000 year old book above it, because you believe in God,

Hence: "If you believe..."

God may very well be all powerful but do you think he would decieve us?

I don't know why God does what He does.

[JAGERBOY]

If God is all powerful then He can do whatever He wants with clay. Are you starting to see the underlying concept here? If God is all powerful then you can't give an example of something He couldn't do.

Except maybe microwave a burrito so hot that even He couldn't eat it. (yes Simpson's reference)

Dude, we are not saying that he couldn't have made people from clay if hes all poweful, we are saying that people being made from clay contradicts the theory of evolution. And in the bible it says dust I believe, not clay, the clay thing is a Muslim belief. Either way, both texts say he created man AS IS, not through evolution.

[outlikeatrout]

Yes but the bible says he made Adam from clay. Not that he made proteins or anything else from clay, which in turn eventually created man (this view point only came about in the overwhelming evidence for natural selection and evoloution - coincidence?). This is my point - that the bible is explicit in our origins.

The bible says God turned water into wine. Water and wine are two different compounds, so how is that possible? Answer: If God is all powerful then He can do whatever He wants. Turn water into wine. Turn clay into proteins. Or anything else you can think of.

[outlikeatrout]

Dude, we are not saying that he couldn't have made people from clay if hes all poweful, we are saying that people being made from clay contradicts the theory of evolution. And in the bible it says dust I believe, not clay, the clay thing is a Muslim belief. Either way, both texts say he created man AS IS, not through evolution.

The bible doesn't restrict the way God created man. If He is all-powerful, He can take dust and use it to create the full history of the evolution of man. This is what all powerful means.

By definition of all-powerful, you cannot give an example of something God couldn't do.

[Rune]

The bible says God turned water into wine. Water and wine are two different compounds, so how is that possible? Answer: If God is all powerful then He can do whatever He wants. Turn water into wine. Turn clay into proteins. Or anything else you can think of.

Ummmm.. I think you missed the whole point of my arguement there.

[outlikeatrout]

Ummmm.. I think you missed the whole point of my arguement there.

Nope, you're trying to give an example of science contradicting God's word, and I'm saying you haven't done it.

[jackal337]

Dude, we are not saying that he couldn't have made people from clay if hes all poweful, we are saying that people being made from clay contradicts the theory of evolution. And in the bible it says dust I believe, not clay, the clay thing is a Muslim belief. Either way, both texts say he created man AS IS, not through evolution.

The Koran says God made humans from clay. That is all it says. It doesn't say humans were made directly from clay, so the logical way to interpret that verse would be that He made humans indirectly from clay.

[JAGERBOY]

The bible doesn't restrict the way God created man. If He is all-powerful, He can take dust and use it to create the full history of the evolution of man. This is what all powerful means.

By definition of all-powerful, you cannot give an example of something God couldn't do.

Again, you guys are COMPLTELY missing the argument. We are NOT saying that an all powerful god is restricted in how he creates things. What we are saying is, that both holy texts CLEARLY say he created humans AS THEY ARE NOW! There was no evolution according to your holy books. I don't understand how you misinterpreted our arguments.

[JAGERBOY]

The Koran says God made humans from clay. That is all it says. It doesn't say humans were made directly from clay, so the logical way to interpret that verse would be that He made humans indirectly from clay.

Again, it says he created HUMANS from clay, not apes, not RNA. So the only logical way to interpret that is that he created HUMANS DIRECTLY from the clay, since thats all it says.

[outlikeatrout]

Again, you guys are COMPLTELY missing the argument. We are NOT saying that an all powerful god is restricted in how he creates things. What we are saying is, that both holy texts CLEARLY say he created humans AS THEY ARE NOW! There was no evolution according to your holy books. I don't understand how you misinterpreted our arguments.

You're instisting on your interpretation of the bible. When actually the bible doesn't impose any such restriction that you are talking about. Taken literally, there is NO LOGICAL RESTRICTION on the way God created man.

[Rune]

Nope, you're trying to give an example of science contradicting God's word, and I'm saying you haven't done it.

*sigh*

From the bible

"Now the first man, Adam, was created by God out of soil and given life by God's breath. Adam named all the animals and birds that God had made, But Adam had no companion of his own so God caused hem to fall into a deep sleep and created woman - Eve- from one of Adam's ribs"

1) The first man was created by god ***note it says MAN not anything else - there is no wiggle room for, "well what if God just started things along" it explicitly says he made man(and every other creature for that matter)***

2) Evoloution says the first man was a genetic variation of a lower primate, and that that was a genetic variation of the species before it, and so on.

It's pretty obvious how one contradicts the other.

[jackal337]

Again, it says he created HUMANS from clay, not apes, not RNA. So the only logical way to interpret that is that he created HUMANS DIRECTLY from the clay, since thats all it says.

So you are saying the most logical way to interpret a verse is in a way that contradicts evolution ?