Damn, low carb or high carb diet?

**Dubbl Dawg** · 06-18-2002, 11:45 AM

I can't figure out which diet to use. One with more fats or one with more carbs.

I'm 200# 14% BF trying to put on a bunch of muscle on a cycle of ONE.

I'm upping my cals to 3-4K but I dont' know if I should restrict fat or restrict carbs.

Which?

Layne says less fat, more carbs.

Fitnessman says more fat, less carbs.

Damn.

**Luke530** · 06-18-2002, 12:47 PM

carbs are the body's perferred source of fuel... go with carbs, it's much healthier too...

**BurritoJimmy** · 06-18-2002, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by Luke530
carbs are the body's perferred source of fuel... go with carbs, it's much healthier too...

Where did you get this information? The body burns mostly saturated fat even with high carb diets, and it will burn a much greater percentage of saturated fats on a lower carb diet.

**B4L Challenge** · 06-18-2002, 01:46 PM

CARBS are the healthier way????? I doubt that. well depends on your source of carbs.... you know what the leading cause of death in the United states is? Heart dieses. You know all the experts say Eat more carbs obesity would decrease. in the united states if you eat more carbs.... and what is happening???? American's are getting fatter and fatter. You know what is interesting another fact.... the leading cause of marthon runners is heart dieses, when i heard it i didn't believe it. But honestly.... I don't know if it is true.... but it can be. and if it is.... what does that tell us? What do marathon runners do before a marathon????????? load up on carbs..... well carbs with a high glycemic index... like breads, and pasta's... I think that your meals should be for every 7grams of protien you should consum 9grams of carbohydrates..... and 3grams of fat (Monounsaturated fat)..... i tried high protien diets.... i gained weight..... why? i would eat steak lots of saturated fat. and i would eat to much, protien can be turned in to carbohydrates. The recommendations i just mentioned.... is from the book THE ZONE...... I am on that diet..... and with intense cardio.... the bodyfat is just melting off..... 15lbs in 3 weeks..... what bodybuilders usually say..... you should consume 2grams of protien for every pound of your weight. so try to apply this diet..... with that recommendation.

**RoughN_Tough** · 06-18-2002, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by B4L Challenge
fat)..... i tried high protien diets.... i gained weight..... why? i would eat steak lots of saturated fat. and i would eat to much, protien can be turned in to carbohydrates. .

Protein cannot be turned into a carbohydrate.

For the record have almost always utilized high protein diets and I have not gained weight, unless it was intentional.

**Luke530** · 06-18-2002, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by B4L Challenge
CARBS are the healthier way????? I doubt that. well depends on your source of carbs.... you know what the leading cause of death in the United states is? Heart dieses. You know all the experts say Eat more carbs obesity would decrease. in the united states if you eat more carbs.... and what is happening???? American's are getting fatter and fatter. You know what is interesting another fact.... the leading cause of marthon runners is heart dieses, when i heard it i didn't believe it. But honestly.... I don't know if it is true.... but it can be. and if it is.... what does that tell us? What do marathon runners do before a marathon????????? load up on carbs..... well carbs with a high glycemic index... like breads, and pasta's... I think that your meals should be for every 7grams of protien you should consum 9grams of carbohydrates..... and 3grams of fat (Monounsaturated fat)..... i tried high protien diets.... i gained weight..... why? i would eat steak lots of saturated fat. and i would eat to much, protien can be turned in to carbohydrates. The recommendations i just mentioned.... is from the book THE ZONE...... I am on that diet..... and with intense cardio.... the bodyfat is just melting off..... 15lbs in 3 weeks..... what bodybuilders usually say..... you should consume 2grams of protien for every pound of your weight. so try to apply this diet..... with that recommendation.

Sorry, you are wwwaaayyy off. Carbs are the body's main source of energy during intense lifting, it has been proven, it is easier for the body to break down glucose for ATP than it is triglycerides... fat are a more condesed source of energy, but carbs are much healthier too, since your liver wont be going through glucogenesis to turn fat into glucose, becuase the body cannot utilize fat itself during intense lifting. If you are a sensible bodybuilder with a sensible diet and you eat the right types of carbohydrates, they are much healhtier for your system than ftas, especially if you go through lifting sessions and are trying to put on mass. That's why we don't eat high GI carbs, If you eat the right carbs, you will be much healthier than on a high fat diet....

I could say the same thing about fat... why do you think so many americans are so unhealthy... because they eat too much saturated fats, leading cause of heart disease in america... So you can't say that carbs are unhealthy... you just have to eat the right ones, just like witrh fats, but carbs are overall much more healthy in terms of gaining muscle and fueling your system. No arguments about it.

**jwcalla** · 06-18-2002, 02:04 PM

Originally posted by B4L Challenge
The recommendations i just mentioned.... is from the book THE ZONE...... I am on that diet..... and with intense cardio.... the bodyfat is just melting off.....

Yeah but this guy's trying to bulk up, not lose weight. I've tried the "Zone" diet for bulking for months, and got nowhere. For the numbers of calories I needed to take in on that diet, I was getting a ridiculous amount of protein. Way too much.

John

**B4L Challenge** · 06-18-2002, 02:12 PM

what where my recommendations.... for ever 7grams of protien 9GRAMS OF CARBOHYDRATES.... and 3 grams of fat.... So wouldn't this diet be a little higher in carbs then in protien???? Man i just re read what you said again... and you know what???? we are saying the exact same thing. I never said a HIgh fat diet, i never said a low carbohydrate diet.....

Rough Go look in the dictionary what "gluconeogensis" means... and then tell me again protien can't be turned in to carbs

**Luke530** · 06-18-2002, 02:18 PM

uhh... you said carbs are not healthier than fats... and I proved you wrong... also, zone diets are for people who don't know their own body so they follow a certain diet... the best diet is a diet that you make yourself with specific macronutrient ratios tailored to your body, lifestyle, training, metabolism, etc... I just follow my own diet and it keeps me nice and lean and constantly anabolic. and if I need to cut, I have a different diet to help shed weight extremely fast also, So it just depends what works for you... following a set diet usually is not the best idea...

**Anxed** · 06-18-2002, 02:25 PM

Carbs are the body's main source of energy during intense lifting, it has been proven, it is easier for the body to break down glucose for ATP than it is triglycerides...

first.. Im neither arguing for or against anything in this thread... this is an honest question...

I understand that carbs are the best source of fuel during intense training... but what about the rest of the day? when you arent going through intense training...

how many carbs does your body ACTUALLY need to function
(excluding training and brain functions)?

Ive always heard that the amount of carbohydrates that you NEED (including training and brain) is very minimal compared to the overall energy needs throughout the day.. and those other daily needs prefer fat..

I have no written documentation on this... its just stuff Ive picked up over the years... any clarification would help...

**B4L Challenge** · 06-18-2002, 02:40 PM

Man do you even know what The zone diet is about??? I doubt it. It is specifically fitted to your body, and your activity level. You know how protiens increase Glucogen.... (If you even know that)
Carrb lower it... by relasing insulin.... Keeping your insulin levels STABLE... getting the most out of your body.... Making the most and best amount of Eicosonoids..... if you even know what that is. Getting the most out of your body macronutrients.... Eicosonoids are known as the super hormone... your body proudces bad.... and good Eicosonoids.... You can produce to many good ones... and to many bad ones..... and How do you increase the BAD Eicosonoids.... BY EATING TO MANY HIGH GLYCEMIC CARBOHYDRATES... Cancer, diabets,heart dieses, athritist.... So don't diss something till you tried it.

**B4L Challenge** · 06-18-2002, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by Luke530
uhh... you said carbs are not healthier than fats... and I proved you wrong... also, zone diets are for people who don't know their own body so they follow a certain diet... the best diet is a diet that you make yourself with specific macronutrient ratios tailored to your body, lifestyle, training, metabolism, etc... I just follow my own diet and it keeps me nice and lean and constantly anabolic. and if I need to cut, I have a different diet to help shed weight extremely fast also, So it just depends what works for you... following a set diet usually is not the best idea...

Okay kid..... qoute me where iI say Carbs are helthier then fats? Copy and paste it or do whatever you have to do. The best diet is a diet based on SCIENCE not statics..... that helps you get the MOST out of your body... makes your body running the most efficantly it can run.... That is what the ZOne is based on.

**Luke530** · 06-18-2002, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by B4L Challenge
CARBS are the healthier way????? I doubt that.

there is your quote... and #2, following a book that is based on science huh??? everybody is different, and everybody will respond differently to that diet, so the ZONE BS can kiss my @$$.

anxed, you are right... only one thing you left out... when trying to gain mass, you want a stable release of insulin, that's what carbs do, the make the body release insulin (which is the most anabolic hormone we have... no it's not testosterone or GH, it's insulin...) So unless you are cutting, you want to prime your body to run on carbohydrates...

BTW... I don't appreciate you calling me kid... do that to people who know less than you, not people that can prove you wrong in everything that you have just said... I really don't like people who act like *******s.

**jwcalla** · 06-18-2002, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by B4L Challenge
Okay kid..... qoute me where iI say Carbs are helthier then fats? Copy and paste it or do whatever you have to do.

Dawg asked: "One with more fats or one with more carbs. "

Luke said: "carbs are the body's perferred source of fuel... go with carbs, it's much healthier too..."

You said: "CARBS are the healthier way????? I doubt that."

If you doubt that, then it means that you presume that fats are the healthier way to get fuel.

I don't really care either way, but I don't think anybody here is saying one should binge on high-glycemic or simple carbs.

The Zone diet, this is the one that says 30/40/30 for p/c/f caloric percentages? Maybe that's good for fat loss, but bulking? Even the Men's Health-type magazines say that's sketchy. (I paraphrase MH: "You might get good results, but all that protein will just give you very expensive urine.") I didn't have any luck with the Zone diet (trying to build muscle).

Do you realize how much protein the Zone requires for somebody who's taking in like 4,000 calories?

The best diet is a diet based on SCIENCE not statics..... that helps you get the MOST out of your body... makes your body running the most efficantly it can run.... That is what the ZOne is based on.

Yeah but here's another diet based on science and it comes up with a rather different conclusion:

http://www.avantlabs.com/issue6/performance_eating.htm

Again, I think the problem is that you and Dawg have different goals. Dawg is trying to put on mass. He needs a caloric surplus. You're trying to lose fat (I think). You need a caloric deficit. Obviously fat is stored energy, and energy comes from carbs. But Dawg needs that energy to workout and repair his muscle tissue. He's not looking to get that energy from his fat stores (limited supply); besides his body would probably be more interested in breaking down muscle tissue for energy before using his body fat.

JMO,
John

**Luke530** · 06-18-2002, 03:10 PM

thank you, jwcalla.

Yes, performance eating at www.avantlabs.com written by: zeppelin is a very good diet... it probably beats any book out there, if you wan't to gain muscle, that diet shows you how to do it.

another good point you made, jwcalla, is that at 4000 calories per day for someone trying to bulk, the zone is useless, it should be bodyweight and calories per day that determine macronutrient ratios...

**B4L Challenge** · 06-18-2002, 03:45 PM

Go up to 5 american's and ask them "What are carbohydrates?" They will ansewr Bread and pasta's.... some might even say fruits and vegtebles.... most peopie think of carbohydrates they think of breads and pasta's.... Hey kid you said Since you know soooo much more then me..... pop quiz.... what do you do if you had no fruits are vegetblaes in the house.... the only source of carbohydrates you have in the house are Breads.... How do you get a Stable flow of insulin out of it????? Yes insulin is the most potent anabolic compound out there...... but it also makes you fat.... If you want to argue with me on that one..... Go to 90% of diabetics who take insulin and check there bodyfat levels.

and to Chewbaca,
OKay your right me and this kid do have different goals.
But seriously..... what i am talking about is the ultimate physique..... I mean like on high calorie diets..... you ccan put on muscle mass, but you will also put on fat.... WE all know that people make there best gains the very first 3 months they start working out... But here is a study that was based on the ZOne diet...... 10 Elite Athletes.... people who strength trained for a big part of there career.... went on a zone diet.... and in 6 weeks.... they gained 10lbs and lost 5lbs of bodyfat..... so that equals 15lbs of lean muscle mass.... If you can control your body hormone levels... You can get the best out of your body..... Listen, lets assume you have 200lbs of lean body mass... and to pile on mass lets assume your adding 1.0 `grams of protien per lbs of lean bodymass.... that woudl be 1.0 grams of protien if you where fallowing a zone based diet your total caloric intake would be 2593.5 calories. Compared to your other diet.... which consist of 4000 calories..... where would all those unused calories go to..... turn in to bodyfat. the differenice is 1047 calories.... all those calories would turn in to fat.... there un neccessary.

**jwcalla** · 06-18-2002, 04:06 PM

Originally posted by B4L Challenge
Go up to 5 american's and ask them "What are carbohydrates?" They will ansewr Bread and pasta's.... some might even say fruits and vegtebles.... most peopie think of carbohydrates they think of breads and pasta's.... Hey kid you said Since you know soooo much more then me..... pop quiz.... what do you do if you had no fruits are vegetblaes in the house.... the only source of carbohydrates you have in the house are Breads.... How do you get a Stable flow of insulin out of it????? Yes insulin is the most potent anabolic compound out there...... but it also makes you fat.... If you want to argue with me on that one..... Go to 90% of diabetics who take insulin and check there bodyfat levels.

and to Chewbaca..... or whatever your name was.....

Well there's no reason to get nasty about it. Obviously there are low glycemic carbs available to people. Whole wheat pasta, whole grain bread, brown rice, etc.

If somebody is building mass and gains a weee teeeny little bit of fat from the carbs THEY NEEDED to gain the mass... what's the big deal?

To answer the poster's original question... FOR BULKING... I don't think you should restrict either fat or carbs, but I'm not sure what ONE is and how it reacts to fat or carbs. I think all of the macronutrients are important, so...

John

**BurritoJimmy** · 06-18-2002, 04:49 PM

j

**BurritoJimmy** · 06-18-2002, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by Luke530
uhh... you said carbs are not healthier than fats... and I proved you wrong... also, zone diets are for people who don't know their own body so they follow a certain diet... the best diet is a diet that you make yourself with specific macronutrient ratios tailored to your body, lifestyle, training, metabolism, etc... I just follow my own diet and it keeps me nice and lean and constantly anabolic. and if I need to cut, I have a different diet to help shed weight extremely fast also, So it just depends what works for you... following a set diet usually is not the best idea...

You didn't prove anything.

**Luke530** · 06-18-2002, 04:58 PM

OK B4L, first of all, you can get a stable insulin flow from whole grain bread, not a problem... and diabetics are diabetics, for people who have isulin resistance... that sucks, but insulin is what makes you put on muscle... I'm not insulin resistant and 50%of my diet is carbohydrates, and I don't gain fat... hardly even while bulking... plus I don't know anyone who can put on muscle at 2500 calories per day and weighs 200 lbs., 2500 calories is less than 500 calories away from being a cutting diet... you have alot to learn about putting on muscle mass. wow, you went and read a book, and now you think you know everything... sorry, it does not work that way... to gain muscle you have to eat more calories than you consume... and muscle mass comes faster when you eat more. 2500 calories is a pussy diet for little girls... you cannot gain 10lbs. in 6 weeks on a 2500 calorie per day diet unless you have a 1500 calorie per day maintnence, LOL. you are really screwing yourself over and it really looks like you know jack **** about putting on muscle... go eat your 2500 calories per day and be an A&F girly model... you wont end up a bodybuilder, being so ignorant, and thinking you know everything, all you know is your little zone bull****, go read seppelins article, it's 20x as good, and it's based on experience not a bull**** company trying to make money... most people on this board will also agree with me. so unless you are a diabetic, carbs are much healthier, so stop embarrasing yourself.

don't get me wrong... at least 15-20% of a good diet should also be fat. but carbs are the bodys perferred source of fuel and they release insulin which does not make you fat if you know how to control it... you will always put on a little fat, but most of it will be muscle.

**Luke530** · 06-18-2002, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by BurritoJimmy

You didn't prove anything.

I was reffering to my prior post... sorry if it does not look clear...

**B4L Challenge** · 06-18-2002, 05:24 PM

Man your so stupid..... Why is there a glycemic index if you can get stable flows from whole grain bread? I wonder what the higher glymeic number means.. hmmmmm OMG It's coming to me... let me think.... OMG I GOT IT!!!!!!!!! It means that it will enter the body at a faster and more intense rate... OMG I AM GENIUS. Your a retard, DR. Alfred Goldberg and his colleagues at Harvard University made a significant discorvery about muscle growth. they found that if a muscle is stimulated to grow it will grow... spite of lack of food, rest growth hormone, and insulin. There is a study... you have a problem with it go take it up with a scientist... you moron... any professional bodybuilder would say your lucky if you gain 10lbs of muscle a year. um... how many calories would that total in 1 year.... to add 10lbs of muscle??? that would be..... 35,000 calories to gain 10lbs of muscle. and how many extra calories is that from your maintaince weight a day....???? 100 calories... I qoute you now.... "You need a few things to learn about buidling muscle mass" Oh wait i am sorry..... you might be right.... you might need to eat a **** load for a stupid moron who is stupid enough to over train and burn off those extra 1000 calories. Workouts can either be Intense or long..... It's impossible to do both... if your working out long hours.... it isn't intense. okay i am sorry you are stupid enough to over train..

**jwcalla** · 06-18-2002, 05:38 PM

lol... ummm... "huh?"

**B4L Challenge** · 06-18-2002, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by jwcalla
lol... ummm... "huh?"

hm. I don't know... haha

**Fudog1138** · 06-18-2002, 05:48 PM

Come on fellas. We've got allot of brain power in this post. I gotta believe that you can come up with something good out of this thread other than calling names ect... Some of you have been here a whil and know better than to get into that crap.

Cool?

**Luke530** · 06-18-2002, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by B4L Challenge
Man your so stupid..... Why is there a glycemic index if you can get stable flows from whole grain bread? I wonder what the higher glymeic number means.. hmmmmm OMG It's coming to me... let me think.... OMG I GOT IT!!!!!!!!! It means that it will enter the body at a faster and more intense rate... OMG I AM GENIUS. Your a retard, DR. Alfred Goldberg and his colleagues at Harvard University made a significant discorvery about muscle growth. they found that if a muscle is stimulated to grow it will grow... spite of lack of food, rest growth hormone, and insulin. There is a study... you have a problem with it go take it up with a scientist... you moron... any professional bodybuilder would say your lucky if you gain 10lbs of muscle a year. um... how many calories would that total in 1 year.... to add 10lbs of muscle??? that would be..... 35,000 calories to gain 10lbs of muscle. and how many extra calories is that from your maintaince weight a day....???? 100 calories... I qoute you now.... "You need a few things to learn about buidling muscle mass" Oh wait i am sorry..... you might be right.... you might need to eat a **** load for a stupid moron who is stupid enough to over train and burn off those extra 1000 calories. Workouts can either be Intense or long..... It's impossible to do both... if your working out long hours.... it isn't intense. okay i am sorry you are stupid enough to over train..

you really are retarded... first off, whole grain bread has a fairly low GI, and when consumed with protein and fats, it means almost nothing... dumbass... 10lbs. of muscle in a year huh??? yeah, if you reached your genetic limit... I've gained more than that in a period of 3 months and gained almost no fat, your stupidass research means absolutely ****, diet is 75% of bodybuilding, the point is, to grow, you must eat more than you expand... if you can't realize that, you are retarded, you don't know ****, and you have no reason to talk... obviously you have no knowledge about bodybuilding, and I have been proving you wrong in every aspect of it... I can back up everything I say too, in articles and research... Wow, i'm amazed, you read a book and you think you know alot, ok, no... you don't know ****, you don't know the first thing in how to create an anabolic enviorinment for your body to put on muscle... so you gain a little fat... but i bet i'll put on 3x as much muscle as you do, then quickly cut for 6-8 weeks and be twice as big as you on a pussy ass diet... If you think you can grow without eating... you are retarded and I suggest you don't post on this board because nobody on the boards will agree with you... so go suck a dick.

**str8flexed** · 06-18-2002, 07:15 PM

I'm afraid your wrong sir. You see for the body to be in anabolism there must be an excess of calories presant..this is true for fat tissue as well as muscle tissue. You see you need a certain amount of calories to come from external sources everyday to fuel your activities. Now if you don't mee those needs your body must catabolize some sort of tissue to get those calories...be it oxidizing fat or muscle tissue it will get those caloreis or we would not function if we ddin't have a proper calorie intake. Now if the body is literally eating itself (catabolizing) do you really think it is going to build up another tissue at the same time and waste the calories it needs for energy...no this is not efficient for the body nor does it make sense. Now as far as carbs not being the preferred fuel source... I beg to differ. Glycolysis is a much more efficient process than fat oxidation is. Glycolysis is faster and produces more atp per molecule burned. In addition to prove that the body burns glycogen before fat (making it the preferred source) research has shown that glycogen stores must be at a low molarity (concentration) in the cell before the cell will burn fat instead. This means the body will deplete glycogen before turning to fat for energy or protein for that matter.
Peace

**B4L Challenge** · 06-18-2002, 08:32 PM

Originally posted by Luke530

you really are retarded... first off, whole grain bread has a fairly low GI, and when consumed with protein and fats, it means almost nothing... dumbass... 10lbs. of muscle in a year huh??? yeah, if you reached your genetic limit... I've gained more than that in a period of 3 months and gained almost no fat, your stupidass research means absolutely ****, diet is 75% of bodybuilding, the point is, to grow, you must eat more than you expand... if you can't realize that, you are retarded, you don't know ****, and you have no reason to talk... obviously you have no knowledge about bodybuilding, and I have been proving you wrong in every aspect of it... I can back up everything I say too, in articles and research... Wow, i'm amazed, you read a book and you think you know alot, ok, no... you don't know ****, you don't know the first thing in how to create an anabolic enviorinment for your body to put on muscle... so you gain a little fat... but i bet i'll put on 3x as much muscle as you do, then quickly cut for 6-8 weeks and be twice as big as you on a pussy ass diet... If you think you can grow without eating... you are retarded and I suggest you don't post on this board because nobody on the boards will agree with you... so go suck a dick.

LMAOOOOOO your so retarded it isn't even funny.

**B4L Challenge** · 06-18-2002, 08:33 PM

st8.... where are the studies????? the eveidence.... and this goes for you too Loose ass Luke.

**B4L Challenge** · 06-18-2002, 08:37 PM

Str8, I know that make the most sense.... but the scientific study proves a differ.

Thread: Damn, low carb or high carb diet?

Thread Tools

Search Thread

Damn, low carb or high carb diet?

To LUke and Rough

To that kid again...

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions