5x5 vs 3x10 for hypertrophy

[myst23023]

I have taken 2 university courses on health education, they both tell me that for hypertrophy, you should be doing 3 sets of 8-12 reps. For pure strength, you should be doing 5 reps per set.

Here I see a lot of proponents of the 5x5 method for hypertrophy. Isnt 5x5 meant for strength, and not hypertrophy? Now I know that for newbies like myself, strength = size so I could gain size from the 5x5 method. But wouldnt 3x10 be even better?

In fact here is an amazing article that tells you (coles notes) that 3x8-12 = maximal hypertrophy. http://forums.johnstonefitness.com/s...ad.php?t=35045

But why are there so many people who believe 5x5 is better? I am not asking to say '3x10 is better and here is the proof'.. I am asking because I want to learn. As a newbie, I want to make the fastest gains for size possible

[Hollywood71]

I have just started the 5X5 myself, going on the third week now. I have to say that I really like what I'm seeing. I have already increased my bicep curls to 5X65lbs. Bench 5X225lbs. Squats 5X350lbs. I'm 6'2 190lbs. I've increased my weight by 10lbs of good muscle. Not too bad.

[myst23023]

I have just started the 5X5 myself, going on the third week now. I have to say that I really like what I'm seeing. I have already increased my bicep curls to 5X65lbs. Bench 5X225lbs. Squats 5X350lbs. I'm 6'2 190lbs. I've increased my weight by 10lbs of good muscle. Not too bad.

wow in 3 weeks??
Thats impressive as hell
Can you please pm me what your routine is like ?
Im 6'0 160lbs

[PowerManDL]

Tonnage and progressive overload.

[myst23023]

Tonnage and progressive overload.

one more bump :P

[John Prophet]

personally id say 5x5 is more titled toward strength

that being said, for newbs there isnt as clear of a distinction between 'size training" and "strength training"

5x5/rippetoe is promoted here so much because most young guys are clueless and the routines they self design tend to suck, lol

personally id mix the 2 approaches...it isnt 'either/or' IMO.

like this:

squats 5x5
leg extensions 3x8-10

[Murraaaaay]

When I was in my fitness class, my instructor said to do 6-7x3 for strength training.

[abefroman35]

personally id say 5x5 is more titled toward strength

that being said, for newbs there isnt as clear of a distinction between 'size training" and "strength training"

5x5/rippetoe is promoted here so much because most young guys are clueless and the routines they self design tend to suck, lol

personally id mix the 2 approaches...it isnt 'either/or' IMO.

like this:

squats 5x5
leg extensions 3x8-10

yeah thats what i do
i do a upper lower - push pull - horizontal vertical split and i do around three excercises per muscle, and i do 5x5 (the biggest compound exercise) 3x8 (a little smaller compound) then 3x10-12(smallest compound). also i read that the reasons for the diff types of reps and sets is for the diff types of muscles like Ib IIb and IIIB i dont know for sure im just spit ballin.

[abefroman35]

o and any rep is going to build strength and size, which i mean dont just do 1 or 2, but im saying like always add weight trying to keep the reps at the same or if you cant its not going to matter that much. because its the stress on the muscle that builds it

[silv3rbull3t]

1) 5x5 gives you a total volume of 25 reps

2) 3x10 gives you a total volume of 30 reps.

3) You can stack more weight on the bar for a 5 rep set than you can a 10-12 rep set, since the volume is basically the same, this means the total workload of the workout is heavyier using multiple low rep sets.


Not much difference there, you can grow on low rep sets. It's just a matter of correct volume in my opinion.

Just my 2 cents....

[In Flames]

which is better for hypertrophy 10x5 or 5x10. both have a volume of 50 reps. my friend uses 10x5 on everything and he is freaking built. 10x5 just takes so freaking long to complete. he works out 6 days a week, hitting each body-part twice a week and only one exercise per body-part per day but he does 10x5.

[Gballer]

how abt long term planing....

would a guy who focuses on gainin' maximum strength for 5 months and 3 month hypertrophy see better gains than sumone who's doin' both at the same time???

[LSU1]

I've increased my weight by 10lbs of good muscle. Not too bad.

no you have not

unless you are on AAS

[LSU1]

1) 5x5 gives you a total volume of 25 reps

2) 3x10 gives you a total volume of 30 reps.

3) You can stack more weight on the bar for a 5 rep set than you can a 10-12 rep set, since the volume is basically the same, this means the total workload of the workout is heavyier using multiple low rep sets.


Not much difference there, you can grow on low rep sets. It's just a matter of correct volume in my opinion.

Just my 2 cents....

its not that simple. there is a time under tension issue and also higher reps vs lower reps tend to recruit different types of fibers.

this tut issue and the fact that higher reps tend to recruit more total muscle fibers would make it superior for mass.

however, doing a mix of both (more low reps oriented if you are a pl'er, more high reps oriented if you are a bodybuilder) is ideal as strength gains are easier to come by in lower rep ranges and can translate into using heavier weights during your high rep sets

[Doenitz79]

No of reps,i.e time under tension

or volume?(sets x reps)

[labradarep]

3 x 10 & 5 X 5 both have their places with regards to training for hypertrophy. Like mentioned earlier in the thread TUT plays a big part.

Remember that sets and reps are inversely proportional. (ie: the more reps you perfom the less sets you need & the lower reps & more weight(aka: load or intensity) you lift the more sets you need.

Younger(in terms of training age) trainees benefit more from higher rep work (need to work on form & become more efficient neurologically) . As you mature(in terms of training age) you need to lift heavier weights to elicit the same type of response from your body. The reason for this is that you become neurologically more efficient. (ie: your brain can recruit the motor units it needs for lifting & turn off the ones that they don't need). Your muscle fibres also get larger & can produce more force.

The type 2b muscle fibres are the ones with the most growth potential. They are also the last ones to be recruited when lifting. (unless you have been training for a very long time . Specifically Olympic stlye lifting). You recruit fibres in a ramp like fashion. the type 1 fibres start , if the load is too heavy the type 2a fibres jump in, if the load is still too heavy then the type 2b fibres are recruited.(very simplistic example) . The fibre recruitment is an all or none response. (like turning on a light).

Number of Reps are the first thing that our body adapts to when training. That is why it is important to change up rep & set & exercise schemes to keep the body guessing. Most people adapt to a program after 4-6 times doing their training split. So, change your program monthly.

Max strength, Functional hypertrophy, Hypertrophy, Strength endurance

1-5reps, 6-8reps, 9-12reps, 13+reps

(taken from Charles Poliquin article)

Hope this helps

[Pearson666]

Bill Starr's 5x5 FTW!!! http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow...Linear_5x5.htm

[silv3rbull3t]

its not that simple. there is a time under tension issue and also higher reps vs lower reps tend to recruit different types of fibers.

this tut issue and the fact that higher reps tend to recruit more total muscle fibers would make it superior for mass.

however, doing a mix of both (more low reps oriented if you are a pl'er, more high reps oriented if you are a bodybuilder) is ideal as strength gains are easier to come by in lower rep ranges and can translate into using heavier weights during your high rep sets

Im not saying that one method is right and one method is wrong, i vary between lower and higher rep schemes often but i generally keep the volume relatively around the same number.

As far as TUT goes it plays a factor, however i've read some artical's downplaying the importance of TUT.

http://www.t-nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=515288

Everyone has their own opinion

[silv3rbull3t]

no you have not

unless you are on AAS

x2

[LSU1]

Im not saying that one method is right and one method is wrong, i vary between lower and higher rep schemes often but i generally keep the volume relatively around the same number.

As far as TUT goes it plays a factor, however i've read some artical's downplaying the importance of TUT.

http://www.t-nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do?id=515288

Everyone has their own opinion

i completely disagree with most of what chad waterbury says (in fact, i knew it ws gonna be from him before i opened the link )

i disagree because its long been common knowledge that heavier lower rep training will recruit the largest muscle fibers, but not the largest amount of total fibers

higher rep training fatigues not only the largest muscle fibers, but towards the end of the set brings the largest total amount of muscle fibers into play. this as im sure you have figured out, produces the largest potential muscular gain

[PowerManDL]

Anything about 85% MVIC or higher will recruit all available MUs for a contraction. The difference is not one of recruitment or activation, but one of training.

Higher rep ranges tend to *train* different pools of MUs even though they don't recruit as many on a per-set basis.

There's also metabolic issues that could come into play from having higher TUT, but when you're talking progressive loading, the only thing that really matters is the activation and fatigue (ie, actual training) of the fibers.

Which can be done with longer, continuous sets (high reps), or with high volumes of shorter sets and/or short rest periods.

It's not particularly relevant *where* the overload comes from, as long as it comes. Personally I'd suggest alternating or mixing both types of training for the best benefit.

[In Flames]

the majority of bb'ers i see training usually always do higher reps 8-15. except on like deads and power exercise and what not. every time i see ronnie coleman doing shoulders and chest and back and whatever its always higher reps 10+ usually.

[labradarep]

I agree with LSU1.

Do not take TUT out of context. It is just one of the many varying aspects of planning a workout program. It is also very misunderstood.

For Hypertrophy(BB'ing ) purposes you need to keep a muscle under tension for 40 - 70 seconds per set . This amount of time forces the body to react metabolically( hormones kick in more so) rather than Neurologically (TUT 40 secs or less or best of all 20 seconds or less ).

The guys on AAS have supplemented their hormone pool and do not need to follow the TUT principle as closely as someone who trains naturally.

[Bobisnew]

i've been doing this program, it looked alot at first but workouts are rel. short and it let's me do PR's with hypertrophy, but if i feel as if one part is over worked, which is usually the chest, i just won't do it on day 5.

Day 1(PR day): 5x5 all, 2min or more for last set rests, back squat(par.), bent over rows, bench,
Day 2(PR day): 5x5 all, standing military, close grip bp, hammer curls
Day 3(Hypertorphy): Day 1 except 8-10 reps and 1min rests and may be full squat
Day 4(hypertophy): Day 2 except 8 reps and 1min rests
Day 5: same as day 3
Day 6ff
Day 7ff

I'm gaining on all my lifts. Except bench stalled yesterday so on day 5 it'll be out
I set this up with THESE exercises b/c i got wirst tendonitis, so no curls cleans... and such

[BOLT.]

Both can work. Some tend to stick to a more 5x5 set-up for the main lifts like bench, squat, etc. and 3x8-12 for accessory movements. It has a lot to do with builds, etc.

I personally, for example, for legs do 5x5 deadlift, then 3x3 front squat and that's my leg day. I have found that by doing this I can still add 5lb or more to my deadlift every week and usually 5lb to my front squat too despite this being the non-traditional 3-5 rep max set-up. But I dont know that's just what works for me especially since I dont have access to any machines or nothing to use as accessory movements for legs. A lot of people prefer 8 to up to 15 rep ranges for things like squats and lunges perhaps because they are more slow-twich based.

[jdjprimer19]

Both can work. Some tend to stick to a more 5x5 set-up for the main lifts like bench, squat, etc. and 3x8-12 for accessory movements. It has a lot to do with builds, etc.

I personally, for example, for legs do 5x5 deadlift, then 3x3 front squat and that's my leg day. I have found that by doing this I can still add 5lb or more to my deadlift every week and usually 5lb to my front squat too despite this being the non-traditional 3-5 rep max set-up. But I dont know that's just what works for me especially since I dont have access to any machines or nothing to use as accessory movements for legs. A lot of people prefer 8 to up to 15 rep ranges for things like squats and lunges perhaps because they are more slow-twich based.

To extend on your 3-5 set-up. Take a look at this cycle including both volume and max. strength. It involves the dynamic phase of modern periodization which has been used by olympic lifters for years. However, it's newer to bodybuilding as many have stated in previous posts.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/mahler86.htm

[Epilerik]

I find that I like different things for different workouts

For instance, on anything involving the lower back, I don't want to mess that up. So I do sets of 3. But I do 8x3. A lot of strength with hypertrophy as well

Chest or Upperback I'll mix it up. Most of the time I'll do 5x5, but I'll sometimes do 7x4, 3x8, 3x10, or 3x12

Squats I'll do almost anything. 1x20, 5x5, 3xwhatever, 7x4, 8x3, 10x1

Smaller muscles, like biceps, triceps, traps, delts, and abs: 3x6-15

Forearms sets of 3x10-20

Calves I try and screw with as much as possible

Delicate things like rotator cuffs and neck I do like 1x20 with extremely light weight.

[Starz]

wtf i was always told that high reps = stronger while low reps = bigger.

wow, that thread on john stone fitness has really made me rethink things. gg

[ThickAsABrick]

sweet, BOLT is back

great points, LSU

[phuz]

we just started the 5x5x5 workout yesterday for a 4 week routine. i can't wait to see what kind of strength gains this will bring.