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  1. #1
    Never satisfied JBul's Avatar
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    Steroidal Saponins in Tribulus

    I've heard fairly negative reviews on this and other forums regarding the usefulness of Tribulus. I was reading the back of my Trib product (Ultimate Nutrition), and it says, in fine print, below the supplement facts, "naturally contains over %45 steroidal saponins". Just curious as to what this means, and it's possible implications in taking the product. PLEASE only reply if you are sure of your answer, no guesses or heresay. Thanks.


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    Never satisfied JBul's Avatar
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    Bump. No one knows what "steroidal saponins" means?
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  3. #3
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ INGENIUM's Avatar
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    they are steroid precursors found in plants (like tribulus terrestris)...the most important of which appears to be protodioscin. If you are going to buy tribulus (which i would not recommend) I would look for one that is standardized for protodioscin content as well as saponins
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    Thanks. Can "steroidal saponins" (although it's a precursor) give anyone the negative side effects that hormonal products can?
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    Originally Posted by JBul View Post
    Thanks. Can "steroidal saponins" (although it's a precursor) give anyone the negative side effects that hormonal products can?
    i have never heard of any side effects from tribulus...nor are there many reports of it having positive sides
    Last edited by INGENIUM; 07-27-2007 at 12:33 PM.
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    In remission dark_man812's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by INGENIUM View Post
    i have never heard of any side effects from tribulus...nor are there many reports of it having positive sides
    lol
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  7. #7
    LOL, Wut? fmrmarineinbiz's Avatar
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    ya...ya...ya mean companies are just using hype and non medically backed claims to hock their Trib products??? What?? "WHADFUXUP"
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  8. #8
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    originally posted by Dinoiii-

    Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Note: This article was originally published on December 10, 2005.




    Tribulus Terrestris: Worthless or Unjustifiably Chastized? PART I

    Introduction

    Tribulus terrestris is a plant (also known as puncture weed/vine or caltrops) that is mainly grown in sandy soil environments. It produces a fruit that is protected by a spiny burr. The extract from the fruit has been used in herbal medicine as a diuretic, for colic pains, and to fight hypertension and
    hypercholesterolemia (1,2). It has also been shown to increase testosterone levels (3) and improve sexual function in animals (3-5) as well as to reduce symptoms of angina pectoris in heart patients (6). Excessive intake of Tribulus terrestris has been reported to cause neuromuscular disorders in sheep (7-8).

    The active agent in Tribulus is believed to be protodioscin. Protodioscin is a precursor to dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA). As you may know, DHEA and androstenedione are precursors to testosterone. As one ages, androgen levels decline. Therefore, DHEA and androstenedione supplementation have been theorized as a means of naturally increasing testoserone levels particularly in older individuals. Although Tribulus is a precursor to DHEA, Tribulus is believed to indirectly affect testosterone levels by stimulating the release of leutinizing hormone (LH). LH serves to stimulate the natural production of testosterone. Theoretically, moderately increasing testosterone availability during training may promote greater gains in strength and muscle mass.

    Much wonder surrounds the world of trib products, yet still there is a cult following that uses them religiously. Do these individuals have any basis for their continued use or should they simply undergo cognitive behavioral therapy after their respective trib products make their way to the garbage due to the profound placebo effect experienced? This two-part series will critically evaluate the evidence behind the dogma of tribulus terrestris and protodioscin and hopefully offer some insight onto whether this supplements should ever make a worthwhile addition to your supplement armamentarium.


    ________________________________________________

    Three Sides to Every Story

    Their sit two respective camps on this topic. One, unfortunately mostly comprised of individuals who have never used tribulus products or at least products standardizing for protodioscin. Their primary basis of judgement comes from one of the few well-controlled studies to examine the effects of tribulus terrestris on body composition and exercise performance that looked at 15 resistance-trained males. Subjects received either a placebo or a large dose of tribulus (1.5mg per pound of body weight per day for 2 months). Results showed no changes in body weight, percentage fat, total muscle mass or muscle strength related to tribulus supplementation (10).

    The other group represents those who have experienced positive effects - placebo or otherwise. Some cite the actual androgenic sides of facial beard growth in less than a 24-hour period, increased sexual arousal or function, and acne to judge the product as "working." While perhaps, not doing the most accurate job at adding mass - would something like this have place in say, a PCT protocol?

    I remain a member of a group that seeks the truth to unlocking why so many purported anecdotal reports suggests the supplement has a place while the "well-controlled" study tells us otherwise. I look at it more scientifically, however, than a little 5 o'clock shadow, some oily pustules and a little overnight wood.

    Perhaps, it is that there are only two sides after all and I fall more in line with the second group.

    _______________________________________________

    Study Critique

    The study mentioned by the group of researchers headed by Antonio above has several faults.

    (1) The protodioscin content was NEVER standardized among users (in fact, up until very recently, scientists weren't able to attain quantitative data on the protodioscin content of tribulus - yet studies continued to report "negative" results without any knowledge of what that meant - hell, even the measurements for total saponins were very off and many claims were subsequently based on ABSOLUTE GUESSWORK as well as unfortunately what many supplement companies had you believe in also). If someone tells you the contrary, they are flat out lying or as I like to say suffering from a severence of their corpus collosum being cut (Wedge, feel free to add the picture here). I am willing to bet had standardization been met to my earlier recommendations of 85% protodioscin, the results would have been surprisingly diffrent.

    (2) Body composition measurements used (skinfolds and hydrostatic weighing) and total body water (bioelectrical impedance) have much room for error and too cannot be standardized for such a short trial (8 weeks) when research has shown muscle changes to occur after a minimum of 6 weeks. If T levels go up, there is no guranatee you will see evident outward signs (the two have NEVER been either synonomous nor homologous), yet BLOOD LABS (direct T or LH) WERE CONSPICUOUSLY LEFT OUT OF THIS STUDY!

    (3) Interestingly enough, the authors of the study remain fans of products like DHEA, which is in fact the very nature of trib's mechanism of action through conversion. Granted, DHEA has limited benefits to muscle mass due to dose-limited factors as well in individuals with already high T levels, but how about individuals who are parts of the aged population and/or people in PCT?

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  9. #9
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    additional sources and info.-

    Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    STUDY I:
    J Altern Complement Med. 2003 Apr;9(2):257-65.


    Sexual effects of puncturevine (Tribulus terrestris) extract (protodioscin): an evaluation using a rat model.

    Gauthaman K, Ganesan AP, Prasad RN.

    Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, National University Hospital, National University of Singapore, Singapore.

    OBJECTIVE: Apart from its claims for improvement of sexual functions in men, the puncturevine plant (Tribulus terrestris: TT) has long been considered as an energizer and vitalizer in the indigenous system of medicine. Sexual behavior and intracavernous pressure (ICP) measurements were taken in rats to scientifically validate the claim of TT [containing protodioscin (PTN)] as an aphrodisiac. MATERIALS AND METHODS: Forty sexually mature male Sprague-Dawley rats were randomly divided into four groups of 10 each. Group I served as a control group and groups II, III, and IV were treated with three different doses of TT extract (2.5, 5 and 10 mg/kg body weight, respectively), orally, once daily for 8 weeks. Weight was recorded and the rats from all four groups were subjected to sexual behavior studies with primed females and various parameters namely mount and intromission frequencies (MF and IF, respectively), mount, intromission and ejaculation latencies (ML, IL, and EL, respectively) as well as postejaculatory interval (PEI) were recorded. In addition, blood pressure and ICP were recorded for all rats at the end of study. RESULTS: Increases in body weight (by 9, 23, and 18% for groups II, III & IV) and ICP (by 43% and 26% for groups III and IV) were statistically significant compared to the control group. Increases in MF (by 27% and 24%) and IF (by 19% and 22%) for the groups III and IV were statistically significant. Decreases in ML (by 16%, 23%, and 22% for groups II, III, and IV) and PEI (by 20% for group III) were statistically significant compared to the control. CONCLUSIONS: The weight gain and improvement in sexual behavior parameters observed in rats could be secondary to the androgen increasing property of TT (PTN) that was observed in our earlier study on primates. The increase in ICP which confirms the proerectile aphrodisiac property of TT could possibly be the result of an increase in androgen and subsequent release of nitric oxide from the nerve endings innervating the corpus cavernosum.

    So what does this mean?

    There is support to show in our rodent friends that trib in fact does have a place when PROTODIOSCIN is STANDARDIZED, albeit for a lot smaller and perhaps much easier body weight to achieve large enough extractions.

    Studies such as this would lend us to equate an 85% standardization necessary in human males - DO YOU THINK ANY SUPPLEMENT COMPANIES REMOTELY COME CLOSE TO THIS TALLY? Is the essential fact of being a supplement company the sole limiting factor of more broad-based acceptance?

    I am convinced the research has not fully explored the potential here, how bout you?
    ______________________________________________

    STUDY II:
    J Ethnopharmacol. 2003 Apr;85(2-3):257-60.

    Tribulus terrestris: preliminary study of its diuretic and contractile effects and comparison with Zea mays.

    Al-Ali M, Wahbi S, Twaij H, Al-Badr A.

    Department of Urology, St. Bartholomew's, The Royal London & Homerton University Hospitals, 224B East End Road, East Finchley, N2 8AX, London, UK.

    OBJECTIVES: Tribulus terrestris L. (Zygophyllaceae) which is called Al-Gutub (in Iraqi dialect) or Quti;ba (in classical Arabic medicine), and Zea mays were both used alone or in combination by Iraqi herbalists to propel urinary stones. We studied the aqueous extract of the leaves and fruits of T. terrestris and the hair of Z. mays, to determine their diuretic activity and the contractile effect of T. terrestris. METHODS: The aqueous extract was filtered and the solvent was evaporated to produce a dry crude extract. The dry extract was then dissolved in physiological saline to make the required concentrations. Wistar male rats were used for the diuresis test and strips of isolated Guinea pig ileum were used for the contractility test. RESULTS: The aqueous extract of T. terrestris, in oral dose of 5g/kg elicited a positive diuresis, which was slightly more than that of furosemide. Z. mays aqueous extract did not result in significant diuresis when given alone in oral dose of 5g/kg, while combination of Z. mays and T. terrestris extracts produced the same extent of diuresis as that produced by T. terrestris alone. Na(+), K(+) and Cl(+) concentrations in the urine had also much increased. In addition to its diuretic activity T. terrestris had evoked a contractile activity on Guinea pig ileum. CONCLUSION: T. terrestris has long been used empirically to propel urinary stones. The diuretic and contractile effects of T. terrestris indicate that it has the potential of propelling urinary stones and merits further pharmacological studies.

    So what does this mean?

    If trib has the potential to act as a diuretic, were the lack of weight gain depicted in the Antonio, et al study truly an accurate depiction of what's going on here? In addition, would a diuretic benefit not show potentially other routes for bodybuilding uses in say, pre-contest mode, etc..?

    I am convinced the research has not fully explored the potential here, how bout you?

    _______________________________________________

    Conclusion

    To me, it is obvious that there is need to further investigate this area and we will in Part II. With the evidence presented here, I am not sure anyone could refute that Trib, WITHOUT A DOUBT has benefit to a supplement regime, and I, for one am MORE CONVINCED that in the follow-up to this piece, you too will be a convert.

    What is to come? There was an additional study done by Brown and colleagues that supports the work of Antonio, et al. with blood labs which will be examined in-depth next time. And a complete follow-up look at the evidence will be presented. Stay tuned.

    ________________________________________________


    References

    1. Bucci LR. Selected herbals and human exercise performance. Am J Clin Nutr. 72:624S-36S, 2000.
    2. Arcasoy HB, Erenmemisoglu A, Tekol Y, Kurucu S, Kartal M. Effect of Tribulus terrestris L. saponin mixture on some
    smooth muscle preparations: a preliminary study. Boll Chim Farm. 137:473-5, 1998.
    3. Dimitrov M, Georgiev P, Vitanov S. Use of tribestan on rams with sexual disorders. Vet Med Nauki. 24:102-110, 1987.
    4. Adaikan PG, Gauthaman K, Prasad RN, Ng SC. Proerectile pharmacological effects of Tribulus terrestris extract on the
    rabbit corpus cavernosum. Ann Acad Med Singapore. 29(1):22-6, 2000.
    5. Adimoelja A. Phytochemicals and the breakthrough of traditional herbs in the management of sexual dysfunctions. Int J
    Androl. 23(Suppl 2):82-4, 2000.
    6. Wang B, Ma L, Liu T. 406 cases of angina pectoris in coronary heart disease treated with saponin of Tribulus terrestris.
    Zhong Xi Yi Jie He Za Zhi. 10:85-7, 1990.
    7. Bourke CA, Stevens GR, Carrigan MJ. Locomotor effects in sheep of alkaloids identified in Australian Tribulus terrestris.
    Aust Vet J. 69:163?165, 1992.
    8. Bourke CA. Staggers in sheep associated with the ingestion of Tribulus terrestris. Aust Vet J. 61:360?363, 1984.
    9. Antonio J, Uelmen J, Rodriguez R, Earnest C. The effects of Tribulus terrestris on body composition and exercise
    performance in resistance-trained males. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab 10:208-15, 2000.


    Note that the two studies in evaluation were not re-cited in reference section. You can find the study info within the body of the text.
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  10. #10
    LOL, Wut? fmrmarineinbiz's Avatar
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    Cliff notes?
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    Originally Posted by fmrmarineinbiz View Post
    Cliff notes?
    Lol, A better standardized extract would yield the results that most companies claim and most users would want. It is not worthless, but there are a bunch of bad examples of trib on the market. This was more for the OP than anyone else. I like trib for short term libido enhancement.
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