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  1. #1
    Registered User ShannonC_77's Avatar
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    Becoming fat adapted?

    So this was from another thread, and I just wanted to start a new thread on it to get a bit more of an understanding.

    Originally Posted by gfundaro View Post
    You become fat adapted after a few weeks, but it really depends on the person. I'd imagine you know when your energy levels are the same as/better than when you were eating carbs. I can tell a difference because I never reach a low, I'm either tired all day from not enough sleep or I'm totally awake 5 minutes after I open my eyes, never reach a low after eating or anything.
    To be fat adapted, you have to be in a state of ketosis for a while, so most people would have to eat less than 100g of carbs (think more like less than 20) and yes, liver glycogen is depleted. However, if you want to gain weight, you can just carbup every weekend, all weekend. You'll refill liver and muscle glycogen that way, but after you're fat adapted you can burn both dietary fat, body fat, and carbohydrates for energy during and after your carbup until you're depleted again, at which point you'll burn fat for energy again. I did that for about 8 weeks and I put on weight and inches and my strength is great, I really surprised myself in my workout tonight working with higher reps. I could still lift so much weight! Growth is about calories just as much as what they're made of...being fat adapted means you use fat in the same way you'd normally use carbs, it doesn't mean that your muscle will shrink away leaving you looking like a deflated balloon.

    So what would happen if you weren't in a state of ketosis but were eating low carbs (say you were at 15% carbs, 30% protein and 55% fat). Would you be constantly suffering fatigue and reduced performance in your workouts because you aren't fat adapted?

    Since the first two weeks of starting keto most people usually don't feel so great, would a diet like this pretty much put keep you in that state?

    And would it make a difference if you were eating in a surplus of calories (trying to gain weight).

    I'm trying to gain weight right now, so lets say I did a carb-up every weekend, again eating a surplus, this time heavier carbs, wouldn't it take me a longer time at the beginning of the week to get into ketosis again? Would I be going through a constant state of fat adaptation and non-fat adaptation?

    And let's say I was eating in a surplus, while fat adapted, would there still be a need to do weekly carb-ups? I'd like to avoid that if possible but I'm worried about workout performance suffering. (I'm not planning on doing depletion workouts at this time, just following my normal workout as always).



    Oh and another question I just thought of, lets say you have a protein intake of 30%, however since you are running a surplus of calories, this puts you over 1 gram/lb of body weight (say 1.5 grams/lb). Since your body is going to be converting some of this to carbohydrates, would you need to add this to your total daily carb intake and keep that new number still below 100 in order to become fat adapted?
    Last edited by ShannonC_77; 07-23-2007 at 10:55 PM.
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  2. #2
    Everyday=5/3/1+GPP+IFCTKD Atavis's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ShannonC_77 View Post
    So what would happen if you weren't in a state of ketosis but were eating low carbs (say you were at 15% carbs, 30% protein and 55% fat). Would you be constantly suffering fatigue and reduced performance in your workouts because you aren't fat adapted?
    Those ratios would still put you into ketosis if your carbs were kept under approximately 100 grams a day. Above that, and you'd feel fine if adapted. Going from 40/40/20 to 15% carbs would royally suck for you. You'd be tired, irritable and foggy. All the stuff they complain about.

    Since the first two weeks of starting keto most people usually don't feel so great, would a diet like this pretty much put keep you in that state?
    Pretty much.

    And would it make a difference if you were eating in a surplus of calories (trying to gain weight).
    Nope. Your brain and nervous system still requires the glucose to function and if you do not become at adapted, you other organs/muscles are still trying to use them instead of ketones and FFA's.

    I'm trying to gain weight right now, so lets say I did a carb-up every weekend, again eating a surplus, this time heavier carbs, wouldn't it take me a longer time at the beginning of the week to get into ketosis again? Would I be going through a constant state of fat adaptation and non-fat adaptation?
    Not exactly. You are mixing ketosis with fat adaptation here. Ketosis occurs anytime you are taking in less carbs than your brain and nervous system requires which pulls glucose from other stores like your liver. Once that's depleted, your liver starts to convert protein and fat into glucose to make up the difference. Fat adaptation refers to all the long term metabolic process changes that occur were your body starts to rely upon fat as the normal fuel for all processes that it can be used for instead of glucose. This change in fuel utilization is still possible outside of ketosis as long as you are getting at least 40% of your calories from fat. It also still occurs during your carb ups.

    And let's say I was eating in a surplus, while fat adapted, would there still be a need to do weekly carb-ups? I'd like to avoid that if possible but I'm worried about workout performance suffering. (I'm not planning on doing depletion workouts at this time, just following my normal workout as always).
    Carb ups are for leptin and muscle glycogen restoration. You don't HAVE to do them. It's the difference between a TKD and CKD. In the TKD, you take in your carbs pre and post workout only. Quite a few people here are having success with it.

    Oh and another question I just thought of, lets say you have a protein intake of 30%, however since you are running a surplus of calories, this puts you over 1 gram/lb of body weight (say 1.5 grams/lb). Since your body is going to be converting some of this to carbohydrates, would you need to add this to your total daily carb intake and keep that new number still below 100 in order to become fat adapted?
    Needs to be less than 100 for ketosis. I'd do the normal diet and stay well under that for at least 4 weeks in insure complete fat adaptation. Once you are there, you can play with the macro numbers.

    Staying fat adapted is easier then becoming fat adapted, although that is easy too. Just eat lots of fat and very little carbs.
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  3. #3
    Fortified With Iron gfundaro's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ShannonC_77 View Post

    Oh and another question I just thought of, lets say you have a protein intake of 30%, however since you are running a surplus of calories, this puts you over 1 gram/lb of body weight (say 1.5 grams/lb). Since your body is going to be converting some of this to carbohydrates, would you need to add this to your total daily carb intake and keep that new number still below 100 in order to become fat adapted?
    Atavis answered all that stuff wonderfully. For this question, I think you're talking about gluconeogenesis, wherein the body converts protein to glucose. Unfortunately, to my knowledge, there's no way to tell how much protein your body will actually convert. Of course, you wouldn't count all 30% of the protein towards carbs, but it'd be difficult, if no impossible, to determine what % may be converted to glucose. It's safe to assume that, once fat adapted, there'd be no need to convert the protein to glucose, unless (maybe) you were performing strictly anaerobic activity during which only glycolysis could take place. In any case, you do need to keep carbs pretty far below 100 g to enter ketosis...otherwise, it's sort of a South Beach thing, which is ok too, but I'd imagine you wouldn't reach normal energy levels the same way you would if you did ketosis until fat adapted.
    So the long and short of it...keep the protein grams counted as protein, and if you want to become fat adapted, keep those carbs much lower than 100g.
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  4. #4
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    Originally Posted by Atavis View Post
    Carb ups are for leptin and muscle glycogen restoration. You don't HAVE to do them. It's the difference between a TKD and CKD. In the TKD, you take in your carbs pre and post workout only. Quite a few people here are having success with it.
    I may have missed the answer to this...

    If I am fat adapted, which I'm sure I am by now, why do I even need to take in pre-workout carbs (tkd)? Shouldn't the fat I am storing and eating fuel me? If that's the case, the only reason for a carb up (ckd or tkd) is for muscle fullness and appearance?

    I understand the post-workout thing to get the insulin spike to force the nutrients into the muscles. But being diabetic and insulin resistant, I'm not sure that's such a good thing in my case. I'll have to take my chances without a pwo insulin spike.
    They say abs are made in the kitchen, but I don't know if that's true. I'm always in the kitchen and I ain't seen no abs yet.
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    Inuendo? In HER end Oh! PickItUp's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ShannonC_77 View Post
    So what would happen if you weren't in a state of ketosis but were eating low carbs (say you were at 15% carbs, 30% protein and 55% fat). Would you be constantly suffering fatigue and reduced performance in your workouts because you aren't fat adapted?
    I think you can be fat adapted and not in ketosis.

    If fat is making up the vast majority of your caloric intake, then your body will burn that fat for fuel.

    You will still have energy...but if you end up eating too many carbs, you may never reach ketosis. I am pretty sure you can be fat adapted and NOT in ketosis. Fat can be used for energy without being in ketosis. Ketosis simply means that fats are being converted into ketones for fuel. Free floating fatty acids can aslo be used for fuel by certain cells...and there is no need to convert to ketones.

    So you can burn fat while not in ketosis...people do it everyday...and with 55% of your calories for fat, you will use your dietary fat for fuel.
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  6. #6
    Registered User ShannonC_77's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the replies, this is definitely helping me straighten some things out.

    Maybe you can help me make sure I'm on the right track here.

    My big concerns are having enough energy for workouts and then I like the hunger supressing effects of higher fat. Carbs during the day, even if I'm eating a suprlus seem to make me hungry/shaky (I have blood sugar issues)

    So what I was thinking is: (and I'm 5'6" 115 pounds right now).



    pre-workout - 20 grams carbs + 10 grams protein + 2 grams fat
    post -workout - 20 grams carbs + 10 grams protein + 2 grams fat

    ----------------------------------------
    Then the rest of the day would consist of:

    200 grams protein
    80 grams carbs
    70 grams fat

    So totals would be:
    220 grams protein, 120 grams carbs, 74 grams fat, 2026 calories (43/24/33).



    This would probably be way to much protein though wouldn't it? I've been doing higher protein lately and I do feel quite well on it, plus I really like 'protein' foods (cottage cheese being a big one), so I'd prefer to keep it slightly higher - but then again with the issue of gluconeogenisis, this would make my real carb intake much higher right? (due to conversion). I'm not sure if it would make any difference, but the majority of carbs during the day would be coming from milk sugars in the cottage cheese.


    Also, with the carbs, I'm pretty sure I'd be burning through the 40 I take in pre/post workout, so then the total for the rest of the day is still under 100, would that keep me in ketosis? or would it even matter? Would it be better to cut out the carbs post workout entirely?
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    Keep your cals the same (I'm assuming you're doing a clean bulk), but change your ratios around to include more fat. You're 115 lbs, but eating 220g of protein. I doubt your muscles will use all of it, and gluconeogenesis will most likely occur.

    In terms of the carbs, I would think that 40g would be ok, but I suggest taking the pre wo carbs out and adding coconut oil to your shake. Remember, the point is to rely on fat for energy. So by adding calories of fat to your shake, you won't experience that hunger (hopefully) or sugar drop during the workout.
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    Originally Posted by Minotaur View Post
    I understand the post-workout thing to get the insulin spike to force the nutrients into the muscles. But being diabetic and insulin resistant, I'm not sure that's such a good thing in my case. I'll have to take my chances without a pwo insulin spike.
    I dont believe the need to spike insulin is as great as many make out.
    1. PWO, your insulin sensitivity is at its highest anyway, especially skeletal muscle.
    2. The whey you consume PWO will produce an increase in insulin levels anyway

    I think that is enough to do the job.
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    Yeah, I generally don't take a pwo shake, and I haven't seen any detrimental effect.
    They say abs are made in the kitchen, but I don't know if that's true. I'm always in the kitchen and I ain't seen no abs yet.
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    Registered User El Pena's Avatar
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    IMO yeah too much protein I'd say drop that and make up the calorie difference with more fat I'd say a good macro breakdown would be 150gP/80gC/120gF = 600/320/1080 = 30%P/16%C/54%F, this is pretty close to the ratio I've been following for a almost a year and I have no issues with energy or performance, although I do moderate carb ups twice a week.

    As far as carbs around the workout it will only affect the first few workouts until your body gets used to not having that quick source of energy before exercise, eliminating this should also help with the sugar/hunger issues. I agree that the need for the PWO carbs is highly overstated, with a proper carb up it shouldn't be an issue.

    You could try carb ups every other week, but that may affect performance.

    If you are not planning on doing scheduled carb ups then you could do a TKD in which case you would want the pre/post WO carbs, but you would have to drop your carb intake to sub 30g on days on which you don't workout, again making up the difference with fat.
    Last edited by El Pena; 07-24-2007 at 08:42 PM.
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    Everyday=5/3/1+GPP+IFCTKD Atavis's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Minotaur View Post
    I may have missed the answer to this...

    If I am fat adapted, which I'm sure I am by now, why do I even need to take in pre-workout carbs (tkd)? Shouldn't the fat I am storing and eating fuel me? If that's the case, the only reason for a carb up (ckd or tkd) is for muscle fullness and appearance?

    I understand the post-workout thing to get the insulin spike to force the nutrients into the muscles. But being diabetic and insulin resistant, I'm not sure that's such a good thing in my case. I'll have to take my chances without a pwo insulin spike.
    Ignoring leptin and supercompensation:

    You don't have to. The carbs are mostly a way to ward off fatigue from glycogen depletion and maximixe performance while participating in a high intensity activity.

    If you are operating fine without them, then by no means do you have to add them in. Many people feel lots of fatigue and it's one of the methods to correct it.
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    Thanks again for the replies.

    Originally Posted by jaim91 View Post
    Keep your cals the same (I'm assuming you're doing a clean bulk), but change your ratios around to include more fat. You're 115 lbs, but eating 220g of protein. I doubt your muscles will use all of it, and gluconeogenesis will most likely occur.

    In terms of the carbs, I would think that 40g would be ok, but I suggest taking the pre wo carbs out and adding coconut oil to your shake. Remember, the point is to rely on fat for energy. So by adding calories of fat to your shake, you won't experience that hunger (hopefully) or sugar drop during the workout.
    So it's carbs post workout that is more important in terms of energy and maintaining muscle/liver glycogen than pre-workout? I thought it would be the other way around.


    Originally Posted by El Pena View Post
    IMO yeah too much protein I'd say drop that and make up the calorie difference with more fat I'd say a good macro breakdown would be 150gP/80gC/120gF = 600/320/1080 = 30%P/16%C/54%F, this is pretty close to the ratio I've been following for a almost a year and I have no issues with energy or performance, although I do moderate carb ups twice a week.

    As far as carbs around the workout it will only affect the first few workouts until your body gets used to not having that quick source of energy before exercise, eliminating this should also help with the sugar/hunger issues. I agree that the need for the PWO carbs is highly overstated, with a proper carb up it shouldn't be an issue.

    You could try carb ups every other week, but that may affect performance.

    If you are not planning on doing scheduled carb ups then you could do a TKD in which case you would want the pre/post WO carbs, but you would have to drop your carb intake to sub 30g on days on which you don't workout, again making up the difference with fat.
    Okay so with this response and not doing a carb-up, how many carbs would you recommend on WO days?

    And how big were your carb-ups? If I'm eating a surplus right now, for the carb-up would I keep calories exactly the same just exchange fat for carbs or would I add even more calories (still bringing down fat of course though).
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    Originally Posted by ShannonC_77 View Post
    Okay so with this response and not doing a carb-up, how many carbs would you recommend on WO days?
    I only experimented with this type of TKD for cutting for a short time so I am by no means an expert on it. This part you would have to experiment, for cutting it would be 20-30g during the day same as non workout days, and 60g pre/post WO, preferably all post workout but if you need some preworkout because of performance then 1/3pre, 2/3 post. For bulking you would want to go higher on the carbs just how high will depend on the individual. My upper limit is 120g a day more than that and my energy levels become unstable.

    Originally Posted by ShannonC_77 View Post
    And how big were your carb-ups? If I'm eating a surplus right now, for the carb-up would I keep calories exactly the same just exchange fat for carbs or would I add even more calories (still bringing down fat of course though).
    When I did the typical CKD weekend bit, carb ups were about 800g of carbs.

    For most of the last year I've been doing my own diet which is loosely based on on the principles of Iron Addicts version of TKD, and the SciVation cut diet, its lowish carb 5 days a week with two moderate carb ups of 350-400g twice a week. You can see the details of my current diet in my fitday journal.

    Since you are already in a surplus, and you are just using it to restore glycogen levels the cals would stay the same just increase the carbs and decrease the fat.
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