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  1. #1
    Registered User genxsis's Avatar
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    Whey protein...mix in milk, or water?

    Protein powder always tastes best when mixed in milk, and milk adds some protein to it. It's cassein protein instead of whey, but I don't know if that makes a difference or not.

    However, everytime I read articles in M&F magazine, they always say to mix it in water, but they don't say why. Does the cassein in the milk slow down the body's absorption of the whey?

    What really is the best to mix it in?
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    Originally Posted by genxsis View Post

    What really is the best to mix it in?
    Probably whatever you'll drink it with.

    For me, it's milk.
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  3. #3
    Registered User shadowstrength's Avatar
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    since it is a casein powder instead of whey, it really makes no difference which one you mix it with. If you use milk, you will be adding extra calories, and you will be consuming a acute amount of whey threw the milk.

    Water is usually recommended because it is easy to access.
    .... I wish they had a "milk fountin"
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  4. #4
    Registered Lifter WeebleNoMore's Avatar
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    You obviously get more calories when drinking with milk...
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  5. #5
    Registered User Todd_A's Avatar
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    more calories with milk, and a different type of protein (gets into the body slower than whey), but someone once told me that the Lactose sugan in the milk makes it a good choice for post workout. I mix mine with skim milk myself.
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  6. #6
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    I always use 2% milk.

    Based on another thread I may start doing a whey drink prior to the workout too....I'm still ponderng that one.
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  7. #7
    Registered User genxsis's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by shadowstrength View Post
    since it is a casein powder instead of whey, it really makes no difference which one you mix it with. If you use milk, you will be adding extra calories, and you will be consuming a acute amount of whey threw the milk.

    Water is usually recommended because it is easy to access.
    .... I wish they had a "milk fountin"

    Actually, the powder is whey protein, not casein. The milk is casein, which is why I thought maybe the writers were suggesting using water instead.
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  8. #8
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    I think it also depends on what flavor protein powder you use and like. I mix the Rocky Road or Chocolate in milk (skim) and I just got a punch flavor that I will try in water-punch flavored milk seems a bit "icky" to me...lol

    My husband takes his with whole milk since he can stand to gain a few chalupas. He also calls the skim "girlie milk" *rolls eyes* of course the baby drinks whole milk and he is a miniature manly man...right?
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  9. #9
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    if its whey powder depending on what time of day it is is what matters:

    post workout i would use water because the protein will be digested faster

    in the morning use water as well for the same reason

    and at night (not recommended to have a whey shake try cottage cheese but if you have no choice) use milk because it will slow down the digestion and help you keep protein levels throughout the night, better than milk alone.
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  10. #10
    Registered User genxsis's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by chemystery View Post
    if its whey powder depending on what time of day it is is what matters:

    post workout i would use water because the protein will be digested faster

    in the morning use water as well for the same reason

    and at night (not recommended to have a whey shake try cottage cheese but if you have no choice) use milk because it will slow down the digestion and help you keep protein levels throughout the night, better than milk alone.
    Yep! Post workout is what I meant. That's when I have it. I guess water is the best then. Thanks!
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  11. #11
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    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=3742361 read this


    it is actually better to have whey + casein post workout, ie whey and milk according to alan aragon
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  12. #12
    Registered User chemystery's Avatar
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    Personally i consume casein with my post workout meal, not in my shake. My meal follow about an hour after my workout.
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  13. #13
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    I use the vanilla flavore whey powder and mix it with orange juice - kind of tastes like an Orange Smoothie!
    Any workout you can walk away from is a good workout.
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    In water after a workout in milk any other time.
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    Originally Posted by bodyhard View Post
    In water after a workout in milk any other time.
    x2
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  16. #16
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    Originally Posted by bodyhard View Post
    In water after a workout in milk any other time.
    Why? I've never heard this before. I always have my post workout drink w/milk. Is there a reason I shouldn't be doing this?
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  17. #17
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    Originally Posted by Fitnessfreak8 View Post
    Why? I've never heard this before. I always have my post workout drink w/milk. Is there a reason I shouldn't be doing this?
    Faster absorption with water into the muscle, milk slows the absorption, which is better throughout the day or before sleep
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  18. #18
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    Originally Posted by bodyhard View Post
    Faster absorption with water into the muscle, milk slows the absorption, which is better throughout the day or before sleep
    Ok, I use only 1/2 c. skim milk and 1 1/2 c. water, is this ok? Skim milk is like water anyways, right?
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  19. #19
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    Originally Posted by bodyhard View Post
    In water after a workout in milk any other time.
    Originally Posted by newmexico123 View Post
    x2
    X3
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  20. #20
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    Originally Posted by Fitnessfreak8 View Post
    Ok, I use only 1/2 c. skim milk and 1 1/2 c. water, is this ok? Skim milk is like water anyways, right?
    ummm no, in water after a workout, if at all possible immediately after the workout. With milk any other time
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    Originally Posted by bodyhard View Post
    ummm no, in water after a workout, if at all possible immediately after the workout. With milk any other time
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  22. #22
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    why not in water as soon as you wake up, i thought this was also a time you wanted protein digestion to be very fast as you havent had anything all night
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  23. #23
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    I mixed with water because I didnt want the calories the milk added but going forward since I need more calories I'm going to take the advice here - water after workout and with milk any other time.

    Thanks guys!
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    Originally Posted by bodyhard View Post
    ummm no, in water after a workout, if at all possible immediately after the workout. With milk any other time
    i guess you didnt read the thread i linked you. show me a study that proves casein slows wheys absorbtion rate. why does everyone get so worked up on absorbtion rates?
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    Originally Posted by alan aragon
    Clearing Up Casein's Misunderstood Role in Workout Nutrition

    By Alan Aragon


    Dairy Protein Primer

    God bless the dairy industry. Who would have known that pitchfork-toting guys in straw hats and overalls would play a tremendous role in bodybuilding nutrition? In the dawn of the sport, cow's milk has been regarded as a staple bodybuilding food. The reasons milk works so well for size and strength gains have only recently been investigated. By now it's pretty common knowledge that milk protein consists of a combination of whey and casein. Casein is the dominant fraction of milk protein (82 percent) with whey rounding out the remainder (18 percent). Minor but commercially significant milk proteins are lactoferrin and lactoperoxidase. It's well known that casein and whey are among the most biologically available proteins in the food supply.

    Primary Differences Between Whey and Casein


    Whey and casein have distinctly different composition and physiological effect. Whey is higher than casein in leucine, isoleucine, lysine, and the sulfur-containing amino acids. In contrast, casein has more phenylalanine, tyrosine, and aromatic amino acids. Casein has a more intimate link with IGF-1 binding capacity, while whey has been noted for its ability to suppress oxidation. Casein is the slowly absorbed fraction, and whey is the quick one. As a result, whey has a greater effect on protein synthesis, while casein has a greater effect on nitrogen retention and the prevention of protein breakdown. Casein holds the less glorious position of keeping the floor from crashing into the basement, while whey has been in the spotlight raising the roof.

    Obsession with Speed

    Traditional thinking about postworkout nutrition has been all about speed. It all began with the rate of appearance of plasma glucose directly affecting the rate of glycogen synthesis. Higher glycemic response equals quicker glycogenesis (glycogen synthesis), and presumably, quicker recovery. That objective is just perfect if you're an ultra-endurance athlete with multiple sessions in a single day. Ironically, all of the nutrient timing principles bodybuilders have adopted are derived from research geared toward endurance sports, where the athlete's structure and function is nearly the opposite of the bodybuilder.

    So, are there crossover lessons to be applied? Yes and no. From a cellular hydration standpoint, it certainly can't hurt bodybuilders to follow suit and maximize the rate of glycogenesis. But in most cases, the glycogen you used up during training is easily restocked by the same time the next day, regardless of whether you consume "fast" or "slow" proteins and carbs after working out. In addition, all the research indicating the anabolic benefit of quick postworkout substrates was done on subjects in an overnight fasted state, in the absence of a preworkout meal or shake - not exactly the real-world workout conditions of typical bodybuilders.

    Whey Became the Dextrose of the Protein World


    Dextrose was recognized for quite some time as the quickest carb, and thus best for postworkout recovery. Naturally, a whey plus dextrose combination became the standard for postworkout nutrition due to the quickly absorbed nature of each substrate. But again, the postworkout nutrition objectives were all based upon unrealistic conditions in a nearly irrelevant population (fasted endurance trainees). People around the world spouted off familiar advice: "You shouldn't have casein postworkout because it will hinder the absorption of the whey and dextrose." And hence the whey-only era continued. Some folks have latched onto the speed of absorption idea and swear (without evidence) that whey hydrolysate is better than whey isolate or whey concentrate. Still others will take the concept even further and trade out their steak for a bowl of free-form aminos, which are more quickly absorbed. Naturally, milk was supposed to be avoided postworkout, because it formed viscous clumps of gel in your gut that scared off the whey, rendering it useless. Well, at least that's how a lot of people made it sound. Meanwhile, research began to trickle in and change the way we viewed the situation.

    [continued on next post]
    ^^^
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    Originally Posted by Wayne Evans View Post
    I always use 2% milk.

    Based on another thread I may start doing a whey drink prior to the workout too....I'm still ponderng that one.
    Wayne, I think it also depends on what kind/brand of protein. ON protein also contains BCAA's (others may as well) and those are good to take around workout time. That's one of the reasons I do.
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    Originally Posted by alan aragon
    Faster Better?

    About a decade ago, Boirie's team compared the absorption rate and leucine kinetics of 30 grams casein to 30 grams whey, and their results were very interesting. Casein elevated blood amino acid levels for up to 300 minutes post-ingestion [1]. Whey, on the other hand, caused higher amino acid levels at the 100 minute point, and returned levels to baseline at 300 minutes. Casein caused a smaller increase in protein synthesis, but unlike whey, casein also inhibited protein breakdown.

    The striking aspect about this study was the casein group achieved a better leucine balance than the whey group, indicating better nitrogen retention, thus better protein utilization. Casein caused a greater net positive protein balance than whey. This was a big win for casein, because all we really care about is remaining in a trend of positive protein balance amidst continual protein turnover.

    In a later similar study, it was found that aside from known factors (including quantity of calories, amino acid composition, and micronutrition), the speed of digestion is an independent regulator of protein balance [2]. In other words, slower actually was observed to be better. Now let's see what happens when the rubber meets the road in comparison trials measuring the relevant endpoints.

    True Test: Comparative Effects On Body Composition and Strength

    Seven years ago, Demling and Desanti compared the effect of a casein-dominant meal replacement product with a whey supplement. Overweight healthy police officers underwent a structured exercise program that included resistance training, under slightly hypocaloric conditions [3]. The dosing of each treatment was twice daily, once postworkout, and again 8-10 hours separately. The results? Whey got whooped by the casein-based meal replacement for strength gain, lean body mass gain and fat loss. Can we blame the superiority of the casein blend's results all on the 20 grams of carbohydrate it contained? Overall carbohydrate intake was controlled between the groups, however carbohydrate timing was not controlled, so carb timing could have made a minor impact. About a year after that study, Wojcik and colleagues compared an all-carbohydrate drink with a milk-based carb/protein recovery drink [4]. Each drink was dosed immediately postworkout and again two hours later. The results? No significant difference in rate of glycogen resynthesis.

    More recently, Kerksick's team compared the strength and body composition effects of three treatments on resistance-trained men. One group received 40 grams of whey plus eight grams of casein. Another received 40 grams of whey plus three grams of BCAA plus five grams of glutamine. The last group received 48 grams of carbohydrate [5]. The supplements were ingested postworkout and on the mornings of non-exercise days. The casein/whey group had the greatest increase in lean mass, the carbohydrate group came in second without any gain, and the whey/BCAA/glutamine group actually lost lean mass. Calories were poorly controlled in this trial, But still, fast-absorbing whey and BCAA didn't shine as the be all and end all of protein and amino acid supplements.

    The latest dairy protein fight as of this writing was performed by Cribb's team, who saw high-dose whey beat high-dose casein for strength gain, lean mass gain, and fat loss [6]. But once again, calories weren't controlled as tightly as necessary to level the playing field and allow us to draw any firm conclusions.

    Where Does This Leave Us?

    The research comparing casein and whey is split almost right down the middle. Where it's headed from this point is really anyone's guess. Undoubtedly, funding source will play a big role in the direction of the research results. As the evidence stands, it certainly wouldn't hurt, and might actually be optimal to have a blend of the two and reap the best of both worlds. A popular practice is to have casein pre-bed, and whey near the training bout. But the reality is, the training bout is the most acutely catabolic point in your day, even though it's a necessary trigger for anabolism. Think about it, sleep ain't got NOTHING on the immediate muscle damage caused by battling the iron. So, why not have both of the best tools for each job present in circulation at the most critical point? Let's look at things logically. By saying that casein might get in the way of whey, we might as well say that the carbohydrate might get in the way of the protein, so let's separate them? Wrong. Protein and carbs act synergistically to increase muscle protein synthesis and inhibit protein breakdown. The same synergy can be achieved by having a combination of whey and casein near the workout. Maybe Mother Nature was right all along.

    References

    1. Boirie Y, et al. Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion. Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 1997;94(26):14930-5.
    2. Dangin M, et al. The digestion rate of protein is an independent regulating factor of postprandial protein retention. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Feb;280(2):E340-8.
    3. Demling RH, DeSanti L. Effect of a hypocaloric diet, increased protein intake and resistance training on lean mass gains and fat mass loss in overweight police officers. Ann Nutr Metab 2000;44(1):21-9.
    4. Wojcik JR, et al. Comparison of carbohydrate and milk-based beverages on muscle damage and glycogen following exercise. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2001 Dec;11(4):406-19.
    5. Kerksick, et al. The effects of protein and amino acid supplementation on performance and training adaptations during ten weeks of resistance training. J Strength Cond Res. 2006 Aug;20(3):643-53.
    6. Cribb, et al. The effect of whey isolate and resistance training on strength, body composition, and plasma glutamine. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2006;16:494-509
    ^^^
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    Originally Posted by akaswolebd View Post
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=3742361 read this


    it is actually better to have whey + casein post workout, ie whey and milk according to alan aragon
    Bingo.

    Plus, milk is insulogenic, so you are not delayng the protein getting to the muscles.
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    Originally Posted by kimsquit View Post

    X3
    X 4.

    12gs of sugar in 1cp of 2% milk. That's SUGAR! With a capital "S." If you want the high glycemic affect and calories, then add milk! After training is best if you need the cals and fast feeding to the muscles.

    Personally, I like Snickers instead! LOL!
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    For caloric reasons, I still think I will do water with all shakes except the one right before bed.
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