what to stack with one?

**TPRES** · 06-12-2002, 01:38 PM

I am doing some investigative work to help set up my next cycle. I really want to set up an 8 week cycle to provide the maximum lean mass gains possible. Since I have used one+ in the past, I am quite sure that I want to base my cycle on One. My question is what should I put with it? Here is the deal I really do not want to deal with libido loss, because my gf freaks out when that happens, as she does not like me using ph's and prosteroids. I was thinking about using One and stacking it with 4-aderm, and using them in a 1/1 ratio, this should give me a little test boost to keep the libido up, but shouldn't be enough to cause any excess fat gain. My other thought was to use the 4-ad for the majority of the cycle and then replace it with 3 alpha for the last bit to help to harden up my gains. The thing is I have only a rudimentary understanding of chemical enhancement and I was hoping some of the guys with more experience could help out a bro.
BTW-- Current stats age-29
height-5'11
weight-198
I just finished a so so cutting cycle (I have gotten a chest cold from hell) and my bodyfat is still between 11 and 12% which is the reason I would like to concentrate on lean gains rather than bulking. I am an easy gainer and have been as high as 227, but I struggle to get below 11% bodyfat.

**Par Deus** · 06-12-2002, 01:44 PM

Why not just use ONE+?? It will cause some water retention, but the estrogen is not going to cause significant fat gain.

**K (same)** · 06-12-2002, 01:48 PM

"..because my gf freaks out when that happens, as she does not like me using ph's and prosteroids..."

So you use real steroid instead?.

If you want to maintain libido, use 4AD

OR go for only 2 weeks on 3 weeks off (some say 4 off, but 3 will do) short cycle. Gains limited to around 8 lbs , very little side effect, if at all.

Goto Par's site. Lots of info there.

Now you would be doing something that you gf would no approve of .

**TPRES** · 06-12-2002, 01:53 PM

K what can I tell ya she is a pain in the a$$ but she is also the best thing that has happened to me in a long time. Finally stopped chasing women and settled down, never thought that would happen.

Par my thought with one+ would be that over a long cycle I could begin to gain fat, as that happens pretty easy for me. Again I am not much of an expert which is why I asked. I just thought that by limiting the 4-ad to a lower ration I could be assured of leaner gains. I will reconsider if you feel that I could continue to pick up lean gains with the one+.

**1fast400** · 06-12-2002, 01:56 PM

You could always do super one+, 6g of 1-test and 9.375g of 4AD.

**TPRES** · 06-12-2002, 02:02 PM

Thaks for the quick replies guys, Ifast the thing that I was a little worried about was the high amount of 4ad in the one+. Clearly I want the higher amount of one test but I am not sure about the 4ad. I used one+ to great effect at less than the hardcore dose for 3 weeks earlier in the spring, but I was a little worried about using it for a full 8 weeks at the hardcore dose. I definitely don't want a lot of fat gain or excess estrogen, though par doesn't think it would be a problem.

**K (same)** · 06-12-2002, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by TPRES
K what can I tell ya she is a pain in the a$$ but she is also the best thing that has happened to me in a long time. Finally stopped chasing women and settled down, never thought that would happen.

Par my thought with one+ would be that over a long cycle I could begin to gain fat, as that happens pretty easy for me. Again I am not much of an expert which is why I asked. I just thought that by limiting the 4-ad to a lower ration I could be assured of leaner gains. I will reconsider if you feel that I could continue to pick up lean gains with the one+.

I am glad that u have a great gal. Not commenting further. The last time I LMAO at your ol' ball and chain wise crack, I got smacked across the eyes.

If you use ONE+ the 4AD will always be there. If you add it separately, then use it "selectively to enhance performance" . Unless you need to perform every night, in that case, go with ONE+.

Your best bet is 2 week cycles.

**TPRES** · 06-12-2002, 02:44 PM

K why do you think it is better to use 2 week cycles rather than cruising on for 6-8 weeks? It is definitely an okay plan I just don't understand the rationale. BTW I do call her the old ball and chain sometimes, but the truth is I need that chain around my neck sometimes as it keeps me out of trouble!

**Par Deus** · 06-12-2002, 02:56 PM

Assuming you are bulking, excess calories for 8 weeks will contribute far more toward fat gain than the estrogen would.

**K (same)** · 06-12-2002, 03:00 PM

LMAO @ your in need of a chain. You are right, it is not a bad thing.

TOTAL Suppression of your natural testosterone production kicks in USUALLY at the end of the 3rd week. So if you only go for 2 weeks max, you won't have total shut down. In other words, you will still have test to keep your energizer bunny running and running. LOL

And recovery will be quick then. So in that regards, 2 weeks short cycle works well.

**TPRES** · 06-12-2002, 03:04 PM

Thanks K you can ignore the pm I just sent you as you have clarified your position.

Par I am not really trying to bulk, I would like to add some lean mass without going on an all out bulking cycle. The thing is I have never done that before, and I may end up just going on an all out bulking cycle anyway. Just researching now to see what ideas I come up with.

Thanks for all of the replies.

**windwords7** · 06-12-2002, 03:19 PM

Just a thought but why not some 1, 4 Andro then: "Definitely more promising than the 5-AA. I found it has great resemblance to the 1AD in the fact that it has no estrogen aromatization possibility, assures almost all gains as DRY WEIGHT and the double bond at the one position which ensures greater oral activity without extra liver toxicity." BB.COM

Molecular Nutrition's Boldione (I've heard very good things about) and Higher Power has one as well although I have heard nothing about its effectiveness.

Or if DHT is not a concern then what about 3-Alpha by Molecular Nutrition? "3-Alpha (5alpha-androstane-3alpha, 17beta-diol) contains the brand new 3-alpha isomer of 5alpha-androstanediol, a direct precursor to the extremely potent non-aromatizable (no estrogen) androgen dihydrotestosterone. It has a documented active blood conversion rate of 43%, a value four and a half times greater than the old 3-beta isomer. 3-Alpha is the ultimate body sculpting agent, excellent for enhancing muscle hardness, definition, strength and the overall look of solid muscularity.
Just as there is a clear need for aromatizable anabolic steroid hormones, particularly when muscle mass is the primary focus, there also exists a strong need for non-aromatizable compounds: Androgens that do the specific job of hardening and tightening the physique. Just ask any serious bodybuilder where he would be without this class of steroid at contest time. The non-aromatizable androgen is often indispensable to building a winning show physique." BB.com

That's my two cents!

Jake

**Jon DeVaul** · 06-12-2002, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by Par Deus
Why not just use ONE+?? It will cause some water retention, but the estrogen is not going to cause significant fat gain.

Par, earlier today I started a thread about water retention and on a subsequent post I said I would switch from "One" to "One+" on my next cycle. After coming from 17%BF to 8% BF. I'm pretty paranoid about gaining much fat back. Also I stated during my 1st cycle that of "One" and Nor-diol that my libido shot through the roof, well not this time-I don't think I could have gotten "it" hard even if I put it in a freezer over night. So all in all would you recommend "One+" for maybe short cycles and just monitor diet to safeguard against too large a fat increase?

Tpres, sorry to spend so much time on your thread but it seems like we have simular concerns except that I've been married for 13 yrs. and the libido issue is not so import...gotta go here comes the wife!

**John Benz** · 06-12-2002, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by TPRES
Thanks K you can ignore the pm I just sent you as you have clarified your position.

Par I am not really trying to bulk, I would like to add some lean mass without going on an all out bulking cycle. The thing is I have never done that before, and I may end up just going on an all out bulking cycle anyway. Just researching now to see what ideas I come up with.

Thanks for all of the replies.

TPRES,

I just finished a 6 week cutting cycle using Boldione/3-Alpha/ Andro-Spray. Lost 10 lbs, gained a bit of size in arms and legs, even though I never ate more than 100 gms carbs per day. My strength began to increase in the last 2 weeks of this cycle, despite low carbs, and I am now harder and more vascular than I have ever been. Not much libido suppression with this stack, and very little, if any testicle shrinkage. I want to try one+ next, and I asked Bill Llewellyn if I could stack both these products with 1-test. His response gfollows:

"As for stacking, the lack of estrogen conversion with 1-T hurts its ability
as a bulking agent. It is awesome for quality growth, but for sheer bulk you
do want some estrogen. Mixing Androspray with it would make a good combo, or
even Boldione. Some do like to stack 3-Alpha and 1-T, although they are
pretty similar and I don't recommend it as much as as estrogneic PH (more
synergy)."

**TPRES** · 06-12-2002, 06:45 PM

Thanks for all of the posts guys. Jon Devaul I was actually gonna pm you about your recent cycle. The thing is I really don't want to cut yet, I just want to ensure that I don't gain too much bodyfat, because I am going to have to cut before next Feb. (career plans just go put on hold, good news I can do another cycle, bad news I'm out looking for a job for the next 7 months.) I really just want to get some good quality lean mass gains, but since I'm not yet married libido is a concern. Well I am going to keep researching but I'm leaning toward one+ because I already know it will work for me.

**Par Deus** · 06-12-2002, 07:08 PM

Again, the estrogen is reall noty going to facilitate that much fat gain -- maybe a pound or two over 8 weeks. And, what it will add to anabolic activity and strength will make it well worth it.

Also, if one does not want to gain too much fat, I would recommend mixing periods of true bulking with periods of dieting rather than half-assing it for 8 weeks straight.

**TPRES** · 06-13-2002, 04:47 AM

Thanks for the quick reply Par. You are right I need to stick to my usual plans of just bulking like hell and then cutting. I was just playing with the idea of using some chemical help to try to add lean gains, but what the hell on my last one+ mini cycle I didn't see much in the way of fat gain. I am thinking of using K's idea of doing a series of short mini bulking cycles with one+. I could do 3-4 of these and then just do a traditional cut sometime after thanksgiving. Anyway, thanks for the info guys.

**1fast400** · 06-13-2002, 06:43 AM

I wanted to mention something about the Super One+. The max dosing on it is 6 squirts 2x per day. This would last you a month and only give you 156mg of 4AD twice a day. The 1-test is bumped up to 6g. Six squirts would provide you with 100mg 2x per day. With regular ONE+ you'll more than double the amount of 4AD to get the same amount of 1-test. I think if you want to get some gain from the 4AD but not the "excess fat" I think this is your best most economical option at only $80.

**shifty** · 06-13-2002, 06:48 AM

TPRES I asked the same question a while back and finally just settled on 5AA followed by One+.

My next stack will be Super One+ from 1 fast400.

I figure at 5'9", 202# and 16% bf (I gained 1%

) it would probablty be the best since it gives a One quanity of 1-Test and enough 4AD to deter the estognization.

I would be curious to see what you end up doing so please post and let us know

**John Benz** · 06-13-2002, 07:58 AM

Originally posted by 1fast400
I wanted to mention something about the Super One+. The max dosing on it is 6 squirts 2x per day. This would last you a month and only give you 156mg of 4AD twice a day. The 1-test is bumped up to 6g. Six squirts would provide you with 100mg 2x per day. With regular ONE+ you'll more than double the amount of 4AD to get the same amount of 1-test. I think if you want to get some gain from the 4AD but not the "excess fat" I think this is your best most economical option at only $80.

1fast400,

The Super One+ sounds super, but I have a question. Can the increased amount of 1-test be thoroughly absorbed, or is there a limit? Also, you probably have feedback, would there be increased irritation in people already sensitive to one and one+? No disrespect meant, as I realize you are one the top prohormone guys on the board, but just wondering if more 1-test in a transdermal solution isn't superfluous?

**Par Deus** · 06-13-2002, 09:06 AM

Originally posted by John Benz

1fast400,

The Super One+ sounds super, but I have a question. Can the increased amount of 1-test be thoroughly absorbed, or is there a limit?

Increasing the concentration of drug in an area will decrease the efficiency, so you just have to make sure you spread it out as thinly as possible.

**1fast400** · 06-13-2002, 09:32 AM

This was just "made" about 2-3 weeks ago. I'm just now getting feedback. Things have gone good. Since most of this is internet based I haven't "seen" these people. I get comments of "my strength went up blah blah". The typical things you expect from 1T users. If 1-test bothers you, then expect this one to do the same. Your looking at 6g of 1-test per bottle, same as ONE. If irritaiton is a concern you may be best to keep the cycles short (2 weeks) as I've yet to see a case of irritation at the 2 week point (doesn't mean it can't happen). Generally the reactions occur past the 14 day point.

**Positive K** · 06-13-2002, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by K (same)
LMAO @ your in need of a chain. You are right, it is not a bad thing.

TOTAL Suppression of your natural testosterone production kicks in USUALLY at the end of the 3rd week. So if you only go for 2 weeks max, you won't have total shut down. In other words, you will still have test to keep your energizer bunny running and running. LOL

And recovery will be quick then. So in that regards, 2 weeks short cycle works well.

and you figure you can make more gains by streching out the cycle for 6 or 8 weeks, (2on/2off/2on/2off/2on/2off/2on

**Positive K** · 06-13-2002, 10:10 AM

Originally posted by Par Deus

Increasing the concentration of drug in an area will decrease the efficiency, so you just have to make sure you spread it out as thinly as possible.

what percentage of a regular dose is absorbed?

**Par Deus** · 06-13-2002, 10:35 AM

Originally posted by Positive K

what percentage of a regular dose is absorbed?

I will have an article in the Pimpology section of Friday's new issue of Mind and Muscle where I attempt to make a good estimate (the article also looks at all of the other 1-test delivery methods).

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