Arguement with my friend >_< Cardio Vs. Lifting for fat loss.

[skelooth]

Okay, so, we were argueing about this on YIM, and well, I think we were pissing eachother off, because we just don't agree. The conversation ended with him going to eat lunch, and me getting coffee (how all of our conversations end )

okay, so, HE SAYS:
That I am never going to lose my gut hitting the weights heavy. He says that since I started going heavy on the weights, I have been slacking on my cardio (Which i haven't :P) and that instead of losing fat, I am just going to be putting on muscle that will push my fat even further out.
So, his main points are:
I'm eating too many calories cos of my PWO nutrition etc
The muscle will just push my fat out and make me look fat
My belly will not go away unless I do insane cardio.


Now, I SAY:
More muscle = faster metabolism= teh win. I honestly think that an emphasis on nurturing muscle growth (or keeping them at least) will harness the BEST results, even if they take a little bit longer.

BUT, He says that my gut will not go away like this, and that in the end i will end up having to do insane amounts of cardio and destroying my muscle anyway.

We argued for like half hour, and I was like 3" away from telling him that I couldn't be his friend any more LOL

I do respect his opinion though, because despite our stark disagreement, he has given me good advice in the past. He's an ectomorph btw.... He eats bacon cheeseburgers 5x a day and has a 6pack..... no joke.... lol.

these are my current pics at 6' 243lbs

Help me settle this discussion with him, because I think I'm right

He has another point: That because of muscle memory, it would be easier/faster to do massive cardio and drop the weight fast, and THEN hit the weights heavy.

edit, he wanted to add

add to that in another post " his point being i would have been better off sticking to cardio and losing all my weight first, THEN once i got to the weight i wnated to, then start with the heavy lifting and building mass"

[RussG]

I have to flat out disagree with him. It's true that if you build up your ab muscles significantly, your gut will be pushed out, however that's unlikely to be a large factor unless you're getting Mr. Olympia size abs.

Lifting heavy burns many calories simply in itself, and then raises your metabolism, increases testosterone, and will help with loose skin issues, probably something he's not considering.

Muscle memory is something that can be considered, however, if you build as much muscle as you can now, then if you lose any of it later on, your muscle memory would be to a greater degree than in his scenario, so at lower bf % you would be able to look more muscular in a shorter period of time.

As you lose more "weight", in his strategy, you'll lose more muscle, and losing further weight will become increasingly difficult, where you really DO have to do insane amounts of cardio. Lifting heavy and doing a moderate amount of cardio will be fine.

And let me say - I tried his strategy. For about 2 months I did 1 hour of cardio every single day and lifted extremely light. I lost 2-3 lbs of muscle during that time, though I did lose a lot of fat as well (my ridiculous bf% and obesity has to be taken into account as well, over 40% bf, I would've lost a lot more muscle if I was a lower bf% at that time). I honestly didn't look that much better. When I began lifting heavy, I wasn't losing as quick, but the changes in my physique were much better.

[nithos]

Different people respond better to either approach. In your shoes, I would keep lifting heavy 3-4x AND do cardio 5-6x a week.

Diet is the real key though.

Finally, do what you enjoy. That will keep in going to the gym longer.

[skelooth]

so then.... we're both right?

[nithos]

so then.... we're both right?

Yep. For an ecto, he is more right. For a endo, you are more right. For something in between (which you probably are) you need a combination of both for the best results.

[mliedtke1983]

I think both right somewhat... there is nothing wrong with lifting heavy weights..but you have to incorperate cardio and a good diet bc you have high bf it seems...so just by lifting heavy doesnt give you the total package

[A.FreeRadical]

so then.... we're both right?

No, you are right. (he has the six pack, though. )

I don't think he is considering the compounding effects of having increasingly more muscle mass and how that is going to alter the metabolic equation as time goes on. I also think he is not considering that you are doing both cardio and lifting. I suppose you could do it his way and lose muscle and fat, then do muscle building to replace the lost muscle, but that doesn't seem like an efficient way of doing it to me. Both will work, the question is, which one will do it best and quickest. For that, Diet, Lifting and Cardio trumps just Dieting and Cardio and Lifting as some later date.

That bigger gut argument is BS. When you get somewhere close to 10% bodyfat, you will have abs and not much before no matter what you do.

Why don't you ask this guy to spend a day with you in Diet, Cardio and Weight lifting?

*
A.FreeRadical

[EADGBe]

how i lost 80lbs was through cardio, diet, and very little weight lifting. in your case, i think it would be better if you focused on cadio instead of weight lifting. diet is a must in either case.

oh ya, this is not to say that weight lifting should be cut out, it's just that you can do cardio more times in a week than you can do weight lifting (actual 'lifting until fatigue' lifting)

[skelooth]

I think both right somewhat... there is nothing wrong with lifting heavy weights..but you have to incorperate cardio and a good diet bc you have high bf it seems...so just by lifting heavy doesnt give you the total package

Lies! I am thin!

lol okay maybe not But I'm out of the obese category at least

if you haven't read any of my progress posts, for the record, I do both. I lift 2-3 times a week and do cardio 5-6 days a week. Usually 30 minutes to 40 minutes on off lifting days, and 20-30 minutes on lifting days right after lifting.

Yep. For an ecto, he is more right. For a endo, you are more right. For something in between (which you probably are) you need a combination of both for the best results.

I'm pretty sure I am 100% endomorph, judging by the articles I've read. I gain weight very fast (Both muscle and fat). Some of my muscles have gotten so big it's just silly.... you just can't see them cos of the fat 25% BF

[skelooth]

Why don't you ask this guy to spend a day with you in Diet, Cardio and Weight lifting?

He would wither away and die on my diet lol. Everytime I talk to him he's eating pizza cheese burgers chili beer .... and that's just at breakfast time lmao Yet he's completely shredded and hasn't lifted in months.

It's funny, because I'm trying to lose the weight, and he wants to gain the weight. It must be strange not being able to get fat 0_o, if I ate a 3oz twinky I swear to you I would gain 5lbs of actual fat LOL.

[theshiz]

your boy is right forget start running your ass off!!!
I am actually an ecto myself 6'4" 200lbs 8% bf. I was at around 20% bf about six months ago.I still hit the weights but once I started running hard and lowered my carbs,I started losing mad fat.People actually asked if I was juicing,cause I was losing weight but looked bigger because of the rip.Please trust me I looked at your picture.Run hard not like a punk,when it gets tiring run harder.I just throw on some pantera on the head set and its on!!!!
Your physique will drasticly improve!!!!!Try it for a month youll see
'

[Steve_W]

Both work simultaneously with eachother. Cardio alone for fat loss is stupid since you'll be doing no work to retain lean mass. Lifting alone doesn't create a huge energy expenditure. I would say lifting is more important though, I have been guilty of missing cardio sessions, but I've rarely ever missed a workout. The thing about cardio is that you can just move more and have the calorie burning effect, but moving more won't do anything for retaining your muscles whilst dieting so to conclude the ramble, they're both important.

[johnnyRocket]

ive been lifting heavy for the past few years, but last summer i tried throwing cardio into the mix. i did about a 10 minute walk/run (run for about a half block, then walk for a half block) about 3x/week, and had a pretty good diet, and i was losing ~2lbs/week. i think that the diet was the main thing, and the walk/run boosted my metabolism, which i think was the reason i was losing weight. i did this for about a month, and was still lifting the same weight at the end of the month as i was when i started. so i think cardio helps, but i think for people that hate cardio (like me) its better to use cardio as a metabolism booster, which in turn will help you lose weight, than to try to use cardio to lose weight but burning calories.
im trying to get into the same routine again, but my school schedule makes it hard to consitently keep a good diet.

i think youre expecting a lot if you think that
More muscle = faster metabolism= teh win
while this is true, you have to realize that it takes time to build more muscle (obviously) and when youre building muscle youre usually bulking, so youre not gonna lose weight by eating enough to create muscle.
your argument should be that lifting boosts your metabolism = teh win.

but i think hes wrong if he thinks that youre not gonna lose muscle lifting heavy. youve gotta keep lifting heavy to kee your muscle, but throw some cardio in there, even if its just to boost your metabolism, to lose fat.

just my $.02.

[brakemasterjay]

i think you have to have a balance between the two. but mostly cardio after your workout. but wait 20-30 mins after your leg workout.

[MC26VA]

Yeah i agree with most, both are good...that's how i've been doing it so far, and like BMJ said...wait about 20 mins or so after the leg workout. Also grab a protein shake after the lifting while you're waiting this will aid in recovery, then you'll be able to do some cardio and have some energy as well.

-Mike

[Andrew69]

Both work simultaneously with eachother. Cardio alone for fat loss is stupid since you'll be doing no work to retain lean mass. Lifting alone doesn't create a huge energy expenditure. I would say lifting is more important though, I have been guilty of missing cardio sessions, but I've rarely ever missed a workout. The thing about cardio is that you can just move more and have the calorie burning effect, but moving more won't do anything for retaining your muscles whilst dieting so to conclude the ramble, they're both important.

Of all the posts in this thread, this one and the one by A.Radical are correct.
Cardio alone will not give you the body you are looking for.
Dieting alone will NEVER give you long term weight loss.
Lifting alone will not shed bf once you reach a predetermined point (defined by your genetics).


A combination of all of the above will yield long term, SUSTAINABLE results.
First of all, clean up your diet. You will NEVER get rid of that bf if you are eating more calories than you are burning. PERIOD!
Empty calories (junk/fast food) will not help you build any lean muscle mass (LMM)

Begin a sensible lifting routine and work out at least 3 times per week. This will (obviously) build LLM.
On your days off, do HIIT cardio. HIIT has been shown to burn up to nine times the fat per calorie expended than endurance training (regular cardio)

Treat your HIIT cardio sessions just as you would work outs (because that is what it is after all). Make sure you are taking a PWO shake with enough carbs and protein after every workout (including HIIT) to preserve and increase your LLM.

Once you start to build LLM and increase your metabolism, you will be able to eat more and still lose fat. Again this will help to build and importantly, conserve LLM while doing HIIT.

Forget long sessions of cardio. It will lead catabolization of LLM, the last thing you want.

Every man and his dog will tell you that you cant build muscle and drop bf at the same time. Thats Bull Sh*t, provided your diet is good and you are training with the correct intensity and not over doing it.

I have lost 6 pounds of bf and gained more than 3 pounds of muscle in the last 5 weeks.

Do your homework, detail your workout schedule with every exercise, weight and rep so that when you get to the gym, you know exactly what you are in for and what you should be doing.

It is possible, but you have to want it and be prepared to sacrifice the crapy diet you are eating to obtain your goals.

[Andrew69]

Yeah i agree with most, both are good...that's how i've been doing it so far, and like BMJ said...wait about 20 mins or so after the leg workout. Also grab a protein shake after the lifting while you're waiting this will aid in recovery, then you'll be able to do some cardio and have some energy as well.

-Mike

With all due respect Mike, Cardio after a W/O is the worst time you could think of.
After a workout, your body starts tearing down and rebuilding muscle at an unprecendented rate.
The last thing you need is to do is to force the muscles to do cardio when their energy reverves are depleted after a W/O
I will stake anything that you will lose LLM if you do cardio after a W/O as the body is forced to use protein as an energy source The only questions is how much will you lose, and that will depend on how depleted your eneregy reserves are.

Leave your cardio for your days off.

[A.FreeRadical]

Every man and his dog will tell you that you cant build muscle and drop bf at the same time. Thats Bull Sh*t, provided your diet is good and you are training with the correct intensity and not over doing it.

I have lost 6 pounds of bf and gained more than 3 pounds of muscle in the last 5 weeks.

I think Skelooth is doing most of what you said. An excellent plan for anyone though.

The comments that I have quoted above are right on.

(rant on) I see all of this talk about cutting and bulking and then look at some of the pictures of the people who are doing it, and I have to laugh. IMO, these techniques are for advanced bodybuilders who are trying to eak out every last bit of genetic potential, not just an excuse to binge and diet every couple of months. (rant off)

Yes, you absolutely can build muscle and lose bodyfat at the same time. Most recently, I have done it in equal amounts of 10 lbs each. It is not necessary to do it that way. For me, it just happened that way. My new goal is to lose 7 more lbs of fat and gain 7 more lbs of muscle. I find it easier to focus on building muscle, rather than focusing on ridding my body of fat. What needs to be done, is the same, no matter where the focus is. You must moderately restrict your calories creating a deficit, you must train rigorously with weights and you must do a certain amount of cardio. Balance in each and all three is the key.

*
aA.FreeRadical a

[skelooth]

Andrew, I've been doing everything you mentioned for over four months. This topic was never about me not getting results, it's an arguement about the BETTER way to get results. Emphasis on cardio, or emphasis on lifting. I feel it should be an emphasis on lifting, my friend thinks it should be an emphasis on cardio.

[brakemasterjay]

With all due respect Mike, Cardio after a W/O is the worst time you could think of.
After a workout, your body starts tearing down and rebuilding muscle at an unprecendented rate.
The last thing you need is to do is to force the muscles to do cardio when their energy reverves are depleted after a W/O
I will stake anything that you will lose LLM if you do cardio after a W/O as the body is forced to use protein as an energy source The only questions is how much will you lose, and that will depend on how depleted your eneregy reserves are.

Leave your cardio for your days off.

hey andrew not to be rude but do you have anything to prove this, everything i have learned and all the pros i talk to put emphisis on cardio after a workout because your gycogen stores are depleted and your body uses its fat stores for this time, also does'nt your body rebuild muscle tissure mostly overnight? thanks

-Jay

[Jimovertx]

I personally feel that if you are trying to cut and you’re at a higher body fat percentage then there should me more of a emphasis on cardio. I personally got better results doing two full body routines a week and doing cardio on my off days. Something like this:
Mon- weight training
tues-cardio
wed-cardio
thurs-cardio
friday-weight training
sat-rest
sun-cardio

Little over 2 months ago I weighed 200 pounds with about a 24% body fat. Then when I started this routine I currently weigh 190 with a 19% body fat. Very little to none mucle loss. My strength has increased because I foucus on more compound lifts. With my cardio I do HIIT Tuesdays and Thursdays and medium intensity on Wed and Sat. I still hit the weights very hard and I noticed I can increase more weight on my lifts in the same week rather waiting a whole week like most three day splits. Everyone is idifferent and so far doing more cardio and two fullbody routines has given me better results.

[skelooth]

Little over 2 months ago I weighed 200 pounds with about a 24% body fat. Then when I started this routine I currently weigh 190 with a 19% body fat.

In the past 4 months I've lost 7" off my pant line, 40+lbs, and lost probably closing in on 10% BF, from 282ish to 239ish. I've been doing full body workouts every 3 days, ALWAYS followed by cardio, and do cardio on the off days... but I take a day off, or do lighter cardio if I'm feeling over trained.

[Jimovertx]

Thats awesome dude keep doing what you are doing. maybe I should clear something up. When I first started my whole weight loss journey I weighed 275 with 38% bodyfat. In the very first stages it is easier to lose weight. I lost about 40 pounds on my first 4 months as well, but once you get lower and lower it tends to get more difficult. Like I said it's different for everyone. I still think that if you have bodyfat over 15 there should be emphasis on cardio. Yeah dude good job, keep with it.

[skelooth]

ahhh okay makes sense. I'm still over 24% BF The fat's been melting off...

I'm going to be doing a LOT of cardio next semester... i'm planning on 3 times a day on tuesday and thurs. plus once a day on mon wed fri after lifting.

[EADGBe]

listen, you can only bulk (get mass/muscle) or cut (lose fat). doing both at the same time is extremely difficult (some say impossible, but i dont know)

so let's review, youre fat (dont take it as an insult). do you want to bulk or cut? i think you want to cut.

[Graphite]

ahhh okay makes sense. I'm still over 24% BF The fat's been melting off...

I'm going to be doing a LOT of cardio next semester... i'm planning on 3 times a day on tuesday and thurs. plus once a day on mon wed fri after lifting.

Yeah, Its going to slow down though when you reach the bf in the teens

[skelooth]

listen, you can only bulk (get mass/muscle) or cut (lose fat). doing both at the same time is extremely difficult (some say impossible, but i dont know)

so let's review, youre fat (dont take it as an insult). do you want to bulk or cut? i think you want to cut.

My arms have gone from a flabby 17" to a SOLID 18" while I've been "cutting". So yes, I think it's possible Those rules do not apply to newbies.

And i don't take being fat as an insult. Because in a few months I won't be :P

Graphite: It's all good if it slows down in the teens... I just want to get out of the 20s for starters Besides, i'm in this for the long haul. I'm never going to be overweight again in my life. I'm going to keep up a healthy active lifestyle for as long as I am physically capable.

[Andrew69]

hey andrew not to be rude but do you have anything to prove this, everything i have learned and all the pros i talk to put emphisis on cardio after a workout because your gycogen stores are depleted and your body uses its fat stores for this time, also does'nt your body rebuild muscle tissure mostly overnight? thanks

-Jay

Not rude at all Jay!
I have a couple of studies which show that muscle mass may be calabolized when cardio is done after a heavy W/O
I will try to dig up and post the links for you.
Muscle repair and rebuilding begins right after a W/O. That is why a good PWO protein shake is so important.

[Andrew69]

Balance in each and all three is the key.

Could not have said it better myself!
This is exactly what it takes.

[MC26VA]

With all due respect Mike, Cardio after a W/O is the worst time you could think of.
After a workout, your body starts tearing down and rebuilding muscle at an unprecendented rate.
The last thing you need is to do is to force the muscles to do cardio when their energy reverves are depleted after a W/O
I will stake anything that you will lose LLM if you do cardio after a W/O as the body is forced to use protein as an energy source The only questions is how much will you lose, and that will depend on how depleted your eneregy reserves are.

Leave your cardio for your days off.

Andrew,
Everything i've read and have been told was that if you must do cardio after a workout, wait a period of time (20mins or so) and then go at it. Also that one should do an abbreviated version (somewhat less than one would normally do). Also during the rest period i always have had a protein shake. 32oz water with 2.5 scoops whey. It's worked for me so far, during the workout i also have a bottle of water 1.5liters and will keep my hr at about 60% (so a moderate walk) something that will break a sweat but won't be intense in any sense.