Why it's Futile to Argue with Dr. P

[Conciliator]

This is a reponse to Dr. P's post: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...&postcount=844.
He, in turn, makes reference to this thread: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=980390

I didn't want to respond in that first thread because I anticipate that this would really sidetrack it. This started as PM to Dr. P, but as I got writing, I thought I might as well post this as it demonstrates how Dr. P is challenged when it comes to interpreting people, reasoning, and forming arguments.


1. After posting the study, Dr. P says "so, the usefulness of putting 'dextrose or maltodextrin into your PWO whey shake' like a certain wannabesmart individual suggested in the said thread is not only not backed by science but apparently disproved."

Apparently, he didn't read the study. The researchers were looking at protein synthesis. As I discussed with Bobo, protein balance is what ultimately matters. It's the net effect between protein synthesis and protein breakdown. Study after study after study shows that after training, aminos increase protein synthesis and carbs/insulin decrease protein breakdown. This study was looking at protein synthesis so, no surprise, it didn't find an additive effect from the carbs.

To quote the paper:

It has been firmly established that post-exercise protein and/or amino acid administration
stimulates muscle protein synthesis (3, 6, 18, 19, 26, 35-37), resulting in a positive net muscle
protein balance (3, 6, 35, 42). In the present study, we demonstrate that whole-body protein
synthesis exceeds protein breakdown, resulting in a positive net protein balance when protein
is ingested during post-exercise recovery (Figure 5A). It has been suggested that
carbohydrate co-ingestion is needed to further augment the anabolic response to exercise. The
latter has been attributed to the proposed efficacy of carbohydrate ingestion to elevate plasma
insulin concentrations (5, 18, 19, 23, 29) and, as such, to inhibit post-exercise muscle protein
breakdown (5, 29). Muscle protein synthesis does not seem to be affected by the ingestion of
carbohydrate only during post-exercise recovery (5, 29). However, hyperinsulinemia has
been shown to further stimulate muscle protein synthesis during conditions of
hyperaminoacidemia (10, 12, 13). Consequently, it remains to be established whether coingestion
of carbohydrate with an ample amount of protein can further augment the muscle
protein synthetic response to exercise.
...
Co-ingestion of carbohydrate with protein resulted in substantially greater plasma glucose
responses when compared to the ingestion of only protein (Figure 1B). We assessed plasma
glucose kinetics to ensure that exogenous glucose was indeed taken up from the gut in the
PRO+LCHO and PRO+HCHO treatments (Figure 2). The greater glucose appearance rate in
PRO+HCHO was accompanied by higher plasma insulin levels compared to the other
treatments (Figure 1A/B). Hyperinsulinemia has been reported to attenuate muscle protein
breakdown following resistance type exercise (5, 29). Though we did not assess skeletal
muscle protein breakdown rates, we observed lower plasma and muscle BCAA levels when
carbohydrate was co-ingested. The latter may imply that either protein breakdown was
reduced and/or that amino acid loss via transamination/oxidation was enhanced.

Finally, keep in mind the scope of this paper. They gave an assload (1.8 g/kg BW) of casein hydrosylate over six hours. This is much different than your typical guy in the gym who comes home and takes a scoop of 25g whey protein in a single post workout shake.

As Lyle McDonald predicted: "Unfortunately, dip****s on the internt will use this to argue that carbs post-workout are unnecessary. Except that they will still be wrong."

[Conciliator]

2. Dr. P then says "and then he proceeds with: 'a mix of higher GI and low-GI with fiber PWO is entirely unnecessary.' his statment is absurd because later in the thread he proposes to have meal one hour after the high-GI shake."

Dr. P's interpretative and reasoning skills are just terrible. This is a perfect example.

First, there's the CONTEXT of my statement that "a mix of higher GI and low-GI with fiber PWO is entirely unnecessary." It doesn't take half a brain to see that this argument refers to the immediate post workout shake. uhockey said a super high GI shake PWO is entirely unnecessary. My response is something to "add" to that... that "a mix of higher GI and low-GI with fiber PWO is entirely unnecessary." What am I talking about here? About the several hours following your workout, in general? Or about the freakin' PWO shake? It's not that hard. Yet, Dr. P speaks as though I'm talking about post workout in general. He somehow trys to present it as a contradiction to my recommendation to have a meal an hour after a high GI shake. However, an hour after the PWO shake is clearly not what I'm talking about when I say "a mix of higher GI and low-GI with fiber PWO is entirely unnecessary." I'm obviously talking about the shake itself. Accordingly, what Dr. P wrote is just retarded. My statement is not "absurd", he's just ignorant of its obvious scope.

Second, there's the CONCEPT of "mixing" things in that post-workout shake. It's just assinine to post "So, he is mixing high-GI carbs with low-GI carbs, with the only difference of having a time gap between those two carb sources." Umm yeah, that's called taking them seperately, Dr. P. You know, the opposite of mixing them. You take one, and then an our later, you take the other, seperately... not mixed. LOL. When you take a whey+dextrose PWO shake, you're not "mixing" any low-GI carbs with it. To say the PWO shake is "mixed" with the meal that follows an hour later is just retarded. You've really got to stop with the wacky logic.

Third, there's the issue of NECESSITY. I say that "a mix of higher GI and low-GI with fiber PWO is entirely unnecessary." Now what does that entail? Does that mean that it can't be just as effective as an alternate approach? No. It just means that as an approach, it's not required. It's not necessary. However, it can still be sufficient. So let's do a little hypothetical here. Let's assume Dr. P's misinterpretation is the case, that my statement (about a mix of higher GI and low-GI carbs being unnecessary) was about the several hours post workout, in general, and not just the PWO shake. Now is it a contradiction, or "absurd" for me to then recommend a "mix" after saying a mix is not necessary? No, it's not. It might not be necessary to mix higher and lower GI carbs because I can sip on a whey+dextrose shake for the next 6 hours. Saying that it's not necessary but then recommending it (even though that's not what I did), is not "absurd" at all. I can say it's entirely unnecessary to take the freeway to get to the movies. If I then take the freeway, it's not absurd though. Basically, even if all Dr. P's other arguments above were correct, his whole conclusion that I'm being "absurd" rests on an assinine minunderstanding of necessity.

Why Dr. P would keep trying to argue with me when he gets owned every time is beyond me.
Me owning Dr. P on the topic of oxidative stress.
Me owning Dr. P on muscle loss and brain fog.
Me owning Dr. P on heart rate changes.
Me owning Dr. P on on rare, idiosyncratic case reports. Also here.
Me owning Dr. P on whether it's always irrational to take DNP.
One of 100 examples of me owning Dr. P for idiotically misrepresenting me.

[Worldwide]

ok

[user34566548717114]

Hey did you see my response in regard to sympathomimetics in the ephedrine thread???

And from what I understand Dr. P isn't really a MD...

[Conciliator]

Originally Posted by dvv

Hey did you see my response in regard to sympathomimetics in the ephedrine thread???

No, send me a link.

Originally Posted by dvv

And from what I understand Dr. P isn't really a MD...

No, I don't think he is. I don't think he's ever purported to be one though.

[user34566548717114]

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=3477611

[Finnegan Bell]

[warbird00]

wait, i came to the misc to get away from the supp drama

wtf is thsi?!?

[Conciliator]

Originally Posted by dvv

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=3477611

Oh yeah, I did see that. I was aware that E is a weak direct agonist of the adrenoreceptor. The connection to MAO was interesting. I was anticipating something about receptor downregulation, but there was nothing about that.

[Conciliator]

Originally Posted by warbird00

wait, i came to the misc to get away from the supp drama

wtf is thsi?!?

Line 1: This is a response to Dr. P's post: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...&postcount=844

[sonicology]

Originally Posted by warbird00

wait, i came to the misc to get away from the supp drama

wtf is thsi?!?

The OP seems to be under the erroneous impression that teh misc is in someway connected to bodybuilding and/or supplements, whilst we all know that it is only for the discussion of PIITB, Brian Peppers, Alison Stokke and whatever nonsense WSsicks decides to create a thread about.

Dear OP - your concerns would be better discussed in the Supplement Misc forum, which you can find here;

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/forumdisplay.php?f=86

[Conciliator]

Originally Posted by sonicology

The OP seems to be under the erroneous impression that teh misc is in someway connected to bodybuilding and/or supplements, whilst we all know that it is only for the discussion of PIITB, Brian Peppers, Alison Stokke and whatever nonsense WSsicks decides to create a thread about.

Dear OP - your concerns would be better discussed in the Supplement Misc forum, which you can find here;

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/forumdisplay.php?f=86

I didn't realize there was more than one misc section. Mods, feel free to move the thing.

[tee45peeolb]

Originally Posted by warbird00

wait, i came to the misc to get away from the supp drama

wtf is thsi?!?

y aseriously its ridiculous up there

[user34566548717114]

Originally Posted by Conciliator

I didn't realize there was more than one misc section. Mods, feel free to move the thing.

yeah the MISC section will pretty much lower your IQ 2 points per second....

I'll see what I can find on downregulation its kinda a sketchy area of study...

[Finnegan Bell]

OP; we cant read all these ,seriously,we are here in the Misc to relax and have fun..etc,u can click on the report button and ask a mod to move this to the nutrition forum.


PS;why u care about DR.P so much? dude u made a collection about ur arguments, i dont even recommend moving this to any other forum,just let the thread die by not pumping it.