Carb of Choice

**Younggunz** · 05-31-2002, 06:43 PM

Ok, so now we have this new info on malto and dextrose right? Neither sound all that great for lean muscle mass gainers. Until recently, people (me for instance) have been telling people to make their own weightgainers and I have sadly recommended the use of malto, which I appologize for. Malto = no good. Manteca and I have had a few conversations as have others about good complex carb alternatives. One of these has been honey or something to that nature, but that has some negatives as well. Well, we also know that oatmeal is a great carb, but if you are like me, there are times when you gag on the chunks if you put it in a shake, and lets face it, you know those shakes are going down way slower when you are chewing now and then.

So when will the BB industry wake up and make a Good Complex Carb? If you are like me, you are waiting. Well, I tried something last night, and I'm sure someone out there has tried this as well, but if you haven't, it might be an answer to our carb problem. It's stupidly simple. Throw that oatmeal into a coffee grinder. I'm serious. That's it. It worked. It gets to a pretty fine powder, not as good as malto, but pretty close. Well, I just thought I would give my BB bros an idea that I know a few people have been starving for. I'm going to take an evening to grind a couple pounds. Now that sounds like a date...where's my little black book.

**Luke530** · 05-31-2002, 07:11 PM

the problem is it's still not a sugar, and the GI is quite low, so it will not digest as quickly as needed for carbs post-workout. You want to get carbs into your system as quickly as possible post-workout.

**Scorpio** · 05-31-2002, 07:15 PM

When I throw raw oatmeal in my shakes and use a hand blender it breaks down very well. I am currently using instant pudding mix, which contains dextrse and makes your shakes a bit thicker. Adding bananas or peanut butter help when blending oatmeal in your shake. I like mine on the thick side. Oats always a good source of carbs.

**Scorpio** · 05-31-2002, 07:16 PM

Have to agree with Luke.

**John Benz** · 05-31-2002, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by Younggunz
Ok, so now we have this new info on malto and dextrose right? Neither sound all that great for lean muscle mass gainers. Until recently, people (me for instance) have been telling people to make their own weightgainers and I have sadly recommended the use of malto, which I appologize for. Malto = no good. Manteca and I have had a few conversations as have others about good complex carb alternatives. One of these has been honey or something to that nature, but that has some negatives as well. Well, we also know that oatmeal is a great carb, but if you are like me, there are times when you gag on the chunks if you put it in a shake, and lets face it, you know those shakes are going down way slower when you are chewing now and then.

So when will the BB industry wake up and make a Good Complex Carb? If you are like me, you are waiting. Well, I tried something last night, and I'm sure someone out there has tried this as well, but if you haven't, it might be an answer to our carb problem. It's stupidly simple. Throw that oatmeal into a coffee grinder. I'm serious. That's it. It worked. It gets to a pretty fine powder, not as good as malto, but pretty close. Well, I just thought I would give my BB bros an idea that I know a few people have been starving for. I'm going to take an evening to grind a couple pounds. Now that sounds like a date...where's my little black book.

The problem is that oats are not fully digested and properly broken down in the gi tract until thoroughly cooked. And instant oats don't appear to be near as good as the old fashioned kind you have to cook for 5 minutes or more.

**Antonio** · 05-31-2002, 07:59 PM

I actually use the oatmeal in powder. It mixes great and tastes good. They say it might be a little bit more processed than regular oatmeal but oh well....

**John Benz** · 05-31-2002, 08:21 PM

Originally posted by Antonio
I actually use the oatmeal in powder. It mixes great and tastes good. They say it might be a little bit more processed than regular oatmeal but oh well....

I can't argue with success, and you sure have gotten big on oatmeal powder. When I saw your pic next to Paul Dillet, you looked even bigger. Maybe it was the black outfit...

**Antonio** · 05-31-2002, 08:29 PM

Originally posted by John Benz

I can't argue with success, and you sure have gotten big on oatmeal powder. When I saw your pic next to Paul Dillet, you looked even bigger. Maybe it was the black outfit...

LOL!! it sure was the outfit. But you can take a look at my pics under Antonio's evolution. I posted my pics a few weeks ago since I was little until my current over 220. Now, I'm cutting and I'm at 212 or so.

Let me know what you think if you take a look at them.

**AliveGuy** · 05-31-2002, 08:58 PM

Youngunz, I don't know what your talking about. Guess I missed something...got a URL for me to read up on malto and dextrose?

**John Benz** · 05-31-2002, 09:04 PM

Antonio,
Very impressive transformation! Is that actually only one year from the first photo to the last one at 220? The transformation is great, but more impressive is the short amount of time in which you accomplished it!! I can identify with you as I was a similar ectomorph, and begged my parents for a set of weights at age 13. By 18, I was 190 lbs, and back then, ( I am a bit older than you), we didn't have all the protein choices , and pro-hormones hadn't been developed. I was married for several years, never worked out, (job required hard physical labor) and after a bitter divorce, just now getting back in shape like when I was at 21. At that time I was 6", 200lbs, with 17 1/2" arms, 49"chest, 32"waist. At present I am 220, and similar to what you show in your recent 220 shot. It sure does require more discipline to get ripped up now. At 21, I just had to workout more intensely and hardly change my diet at all. Of course, I would jog 5 miles every day after work, so I guess that was like cardio. I hate cardio!!!

**Antonio** · 05-31-2002, 09:19 PM

Originally posted by John Benz
Antonio,
Very impressive transformation! Is that actually only one year from the first photo to the last one at 220? The transformation is great, but more impressive is the short amount of time in which you accomplished it!! I can identify with you as I was a similar ectomorph, and begged my parents for a set of weights at age 13. By 18, I was 190 lbs, and back then, ( I am a bit older than you), we didn't have all the protein choices , and pro-hormones hadn't been developed. I was married for several years, never worked out, (job required hard physical labor) and after a bitter divorce, just now getting back in shape like when I was at 21. At that time I was 6", 200lbs, with 17 1/2" arms, 49"chest, 32"waist. At present I am 220, and similar to what you show in your recent 220 shot. It sure does require more discipline to get ripped up now. At 21, I just had to workout more intensely and hardly change my diet at all. Of course, I would jog 5 miles every day after work, so I guess that was like cardio. I hate cardio!!!

Check your pm.

**Sixpack** · 06-01-2002, 01:50 AM

?

**supnut** · 06-01-2002, 09:42 AM

since when are maltose and dextrose bad??

**bow** · 06-01-2002, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by supnut
since when are maltose and dextrose bad??

I don�t think that he is implying that they are. Dextrose and maltodextrin just are not great for cutting in anything other than a pre or post workout shake. These are very high glycemic index carbs.

**Younggunz** · 06-01-2002, 10:44 AM

Guys, my point wasn't to have a sugar carb. I'm not talking about a fast absorbing carb for post workout shake. I was looking for the opposite as so many others have asked about. Something that does not turn to fat as easily as malto and dextrose. Something you can use say in your before bed shake, or at anytime of the day when you need good carbs for calories. I think some of you missed the point of that or I didn't explain it well enough. Not every shake we make is for postworkout nutrition, and malto and dextrose have proven not to be good choices in these situations. This could be an alternative for those that have asked.

**AliveGuy** · 06-01-2002, 10:52 AM

I see where your coming from. I thought you meant for pre and post...well **** though. If your talking before bed or something, who need s a shake? Just down some oatmeal with whey or casinate mixed into it. Why you gotta drink it?

**supnut** · 06-01-2002, 11:04 AM

while my research is not complete I personally suspect that being hypocaloric or hypoinsulemic before bed would be best. In the mean time I can offer a few other options

first acidic foods tend to slow down insulin response. it might be advisable to having certain shakes as maybe a lemonaid flavor?

next there is guar gum on which I have done extensive research.

it works by litterally gumming up digestion and slowing things down but this dose NOT decrease total digestability of the food.

The stuff is cheap, a few dollars per pound when bought in bulk

one study did tests at 2.5, 5, 7, and 12 grams and found that insulin inhibition hit a cieling at the lowest dose making this very economical to use.

guar gum used to be in weight loss/apitite suppresents as it made you feel full, the FDA took it off the market in response to some 2 dozen or so cases of eso****al (sp) blockage on resulting in death... now as we all know the FDA over reacts to everything, upon further digging we find that almost all these people had prior probelems and should not have been taking something like guar gum anyway, the one death was not dirrectly from the gum but as a result of complications from and infection caused by the doctors trying to cut away the blockage in the throat. furthermore the dose in these diet pills was just short of 6 grams... remember they were trying to fill the gut not inhibit insulin which again should only need 2.5g.
Additionally it should be understood that the nature of the problem occurs from it swelling when it absorbs water... with a pill this happens inside the stomach, with a shake it would already have retained all the water its going to before you drink it so that alone should prevent anyproblems. For anyone left who thinks it sounds like a killer, it is still used in many foods as a thickening agaent.

Also to prevent carbs being stored as fat, one could try using ALA more of the carbs into the muscles instead of adipose tissue

**Younggunz** · 06-01-2002, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by AliveGuy
I see where your coming from. I thought you meant for pre and post...well **** though. If your talking before bed or something, who need s a shake? Just down some oatmeal with whey or casinate mixed into it. Why you gotta drink it?

The point of me starting this thread was to give an idea of a Carb choice for a homemade weight gainer. I am not saying Dextrose is bad. It is great for postworkout nutrition, but I am not talking about that. I'm talking about a good carb source during the course of the day. You take 50grams of dextrose at one sitting when you are on a none lifting day = fat. Supnut gave some good ideas as well, I believe he saw my point. I was looking for something with a low GI and complex.

"oats are not fully digested and properly broken down in the gi tract until thoroughly cooked" - John Benz

Where are you getting this information?

**Luke530** · 06-01-2002, 01:02 PM

Actually, I think cooking denatures oats, the best way to eat them would be uncooked IMO. Cooking denatures almost every type of carb including veggies, rice, pasta, and most likely oatmeal. don't worry about eating them raw, you are probably doing yourself a favor.

**AliveGuy** · 06-01-2002, 01:06 PM

Im missing how this is any sort of new information in any way...I don't think Ive personally or read about anyone who recommends taking shakes on non workout days. Hell, if your eating a meal that isn't around a workout period...just aim for cooking like a low glycemic grain. Its not all that complicated. Im missing the point of taking shakes also on non workout days...real food works fine if you ask me. Yeah, I cook like 9 times a day when bulking, but its something to do with my time.

What IM trying to say...is that toss the "weightgainer" idea out the window for the most part. Instead...think real food. Save the high GI for workouts...simple rules. No need to grind up anyting and drink it.

**Gene** · 06-01-2002, 01:24 PM

Guys, have you ever considered the effect of mixing low-GI with high-GI foods/liquids? IE, mixing milk (GI in the 20's) with anything else will lower the overall GI, and also the presence of protein lowers the GI too, no? I'm not 100% sure about this, I think I just read this somewhere and its still in my subconscious...

But really, why do you need shakes on off days, whole foods are for the most part low-glycemic if you omit high GI juices or iced tea and opt for water or hot tea, and mixing it with skim milk will also lower GI... I think many people are over exagerating the conversion of carbs to fats, its not quite like that... remember the insulin response is omnipresent and we are trying to lower it and make it more stable and constant, we accomplish that with frequent feedings. But if the dilemma is having to go out for 6-7 hours without access to food in need of an adequate MRP, I guess you can try skim milk in a thermos to keep it cool and add a little protein to it and just sip on that and suck up a low-carb day... you'll rebound from it nicely anyway. But if you have access to food stick with rice, spaghetti (sp?), buckwheat, even potatoes, etc... and adding meat will lower the GI, as will milk.

good luck, I hope this helps in any way, I'm sorry if I sound like a moron here I'm a bit worn out just finished a killer workout.

**Younggunz** · 06-01-2002, 01:28 PM

While this is the obvious answer (to simply eat more), if this is all you can answer with, you are not having the troubles that others are. And not taking protein shakes and weightgainers on nonlifting days...I've never heard that in my life and if I did hear it, I would point in the opposite direction. It is quite simply the wrong answer. If are not trying to bulk up, fine, you obviously don't need a weightgainer to begin with. If you are gaining mass on the amount of food you are taking in, fine, you don't need a weightgainer, but there are those that are not getting the amounts of protein, carbs, and all around calories from the food they consume everyday. Perhaps they have time conflicts, or are simply extremely hard gainers that need a boost of calories no matter how much solid food they eat. It's the whole point of weightgainers, but this isn't what this thread is about. It is about finding a good carb source for these shakes. Yes oatmeal has been an obvious answer for a quite a while, but there are some that have trouble getting it down in thier shakes. My only point was to give an idea how to get around it. That is all. I'm not going to sit here and defend the whole purpose of weightgainers. I just thought I would lend a hand to those that were asking me and others.

**John Benz** · 06-01-2002, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by Luke530
Actually, I think cooking denatures oats, the best way to eat them would be uncooked IMO. Cooking denatures almost every type of carb including veggies, rice, pasta, and most likely oatmeal. don't worry about eating them raw, you are probably doing yourself a favor.

Luke, I',m not sure where you learned this. Sure cooking denatures vegetable carbs, but not grains, which need to be thoroughly cooked to be fully digested. Raw oatmeal is harder on the system, and a lot of it comes out undigested. Same with rice. Instantizing oats is what denatures them. Much better to use Old Fashioned oats, rather than the one minute kind. This is pretty much common knowledge, not rocket science, and has been written up in mags as diverse as Prevention and Muscular Development.

**Luke530** · 06-01-2002, 01:32 PM

If you consume a solid meal with carbs, protein, and some fat you pretty much don't have to worry about GI. GI is only effective when carbs are taken alone or with whey which is very quickly digested but meat, caesin, and egg protein will lower GI and If you have some fat in a meal it will lower it even more. So if you eat a white bagel (very high GI) with 1-2 tbsp. PB, you will not recieve an insulin spike whatsoever.

John, I just think that whether cooked or not your body will still process it plus the extra fiber will not be boiled away which always happens. your body will assimilate the carbs one way or another and it might be a little harder on your system (I doubt) but nothing your body can't handle.

**AliveGuy** · 06-01-2002, 01:37 PM

Gene: Not a great idea...the point is not only to stay away from high GI, but also foods that produce high insulin. Milk may not convert to glucose properly, beign that it consist of lactose, but that sugar produces a ****load of insulin. Yeah, critisize me guys if you disagree...but I convinced myself of this one now.

Young Gunz: In order to pack in cals, there is absolutely no need for shakes on non-workout days. Im just missing your point maybe...but listen. 3 servings of oatmeal = 450 calories...add half a can of tuna and you got about 500+ Eat that about 8 times a day, which is about every 2 hours. Then wake up at 4 in the morning and down 2 servings of cottage chesse with a tablespoon of olive oil or canola. You got 4300 4500 cals on that meal plan. Works great for me...and if anyone needs shakes after that, they got problems.

**AliveGuy** · 06-01-2002, 01:51 PM

look. this is high cal for non workout. all real food. my sample day. put on 17 pounds in 4 weeks on it with one+

55/25/20

Food Servings Carbs Protein Fat Calories
BROWN RICE 3 99 9 0 432
Tuna 0.5 0 16.25 0.25 67.25
Total 99 25.25 0.25 499.25

Food Servings Carbs Protein Fat Calories
BROWN RICE 3 99 9 0 432
Tuna 0.5 0 16.25 0.25 67.25
Total 99 25.25 0.25 499.25

Food Servings Carbs Protein Fat Calories
BROWN RICE 3 99 9 0 432
Tuna 0.5 0 16.25 0.25 67.25
Total 99 25.25 0.25 499.25

Food Servings Carbs Protein Fat Calories
OATMEAL 3 69 15 9 417
Tuna 0.5 0 16.25 0.25 67.25
Total 69 31.25 9.25 484.25

Food Servings Carbs Protein Fat Calories
OATMEAL 3 69 15 9 417
Tuna 0.5 0 16.25 0.25 67.25
Total 69 31.25 9.25 484.25

Food Servings Carbs Protein Fat Calories
OATMEAL 3 69 15 9 417
Tuna 0.5 0 16.25 0.25 67.25
Total 69 31.25 9.25 484.25

Food Servings Carbs Protein Fat Calories
Canola 1.5 0 0 21 189
Mackeral 3 0 39 12 264
Total 0 39 33 453

Food Servings Carbs Protein Fat Calories
OATMEAL 3 69 15 9 417
Tuna 0.5 0 16.25 0.25 67.25
Total 69 31.25 9.25 484.25

Food Servings Carbs Protein Fat Calories
Canola 2.5 0 0 35 315
Cottage Cheese 2 8 26 0 136
Total 8 26 35 451

TOTAL CARBS PROTEIN FAT CALORIES
581 265.75 105.75 4338.75
Percent 0.535638145 0.245001441 0.219360415

**supnut** · 06-02-2002, 07:46 AM

If I may be so bold as to suggest we stay on track... the point of this post I think was to decide on the best carb to use (no insulin spiking) and not to argue the pro's and con's of a shake Vs. real food.

Lets get technical....

basically all carbs are going one place and one place only and that is getting turned into glucose.

To some extrent they all have exactly the same GI value but its streched over time for some.

stay with me now....

slow digesting carbs are like slow release... but it still produces glucose and it stil ilicits a said about of insulin to take care of a said about of glucose over time.

This is refered to as the glucose load.

Now we could present several agruements at this point on how this effects fat gain from the carbs, but lets hold that off for a min.

complex carbs are carbs that have complex structures... unfortunally it was alwasy asumed that this ment they digested slower but this however is not the case.. so we must realize that complex does not equal slow digesting.

In order to define the perfect carb we must first find out what makes some carbs slower to digest... it could be fiber, other nutriects, the form or perhaps the structure of the carb itself. fructose for instance has to be converted into glucose by the liver, what if there were a carb that was a complex structure of fructose that had to be broken down and then converted... this along with fiber would probably make a great model for the perfect slow carb.

the previous arguemnt I mentioned though is does it really effect total fat gain?

to some small extent at least I can see how it would... if someone gives you more apples then you can carry you loose some of them (prettend those become fat then) but if you can get them to hold on to some of them while you eat a few then you can carry more without dropping as much.

in other words if a glycugen rush fills up your stores and then theres some left over it gets turned into fat, but if that rush comes slower then your naturally burning off some of the glycogen as your stores fill up letting your body utalize more of it and leaving less to go to fat.

but how much does this really effect anything? Can this factor really count for that much?

it may be that slow carbs would just mean the fat goes on slower.

Other ideas:

no one mentioned instant mashed potatoes! lol

If there were a way to kick the body into ketosis in a way that only took say an hour that would be perfect, we could spike when we need to and then kick into ketosis and it wouldnt be a problem. unfortunatly that option isnt available yet.

**AliveGuy** · 06-02-2002, 08:37 AM

Im sorry I got off track, but I just viewed the entire post as rather pointless. I thought it was of course common sense to not eat high GI and II meals unless working out. Even that little shred of info came from Beradis t-mag articles when I knew **** about anything and read that lame magazine. If I can get that common sense years ago, I was confused on this whole topic...to live off dextrose and malto is sort of insane and behind the times.

Now Im sorry, but I think the "carb of choice" is a simple, simple answer and hardley deservant of a thread...on non-workout days, the "carb of choice" basically describes any carb that illicits a low glucose and insulin response, as to keep insulin sensitivity high and not cause a non-correlation between insulin and glucose levels. Hence, a slow amount of glucose hits the blood stream and the correlating amoutn of insulin follows... In essence...Im thinking oatmeal does that.

Now I got thrown off by the whole idea of weight gainers cause simply, oatmeal is a food, and anyoen can just eat it. THere are also lots of other grains that ellicit the same effects. It isn't as if there is one carb of choice and one way to eat it (or drink it in this case). On a non-workout day the carb of choice is anything that fits the previous description. Theres no new info regaurding dextrose as bad weightgainers at all. A weightgainer is only for working out....slow digesting carbs are for not working out. Easy rules....Im no scientist, not claiming its a perfect "system", but those are damn uncomplicated rules that work in real life.

**Younggunz** · 06-02-2002, 12:00 PM

Perhaps I should have named the thread slightly different. I'm not saying I have solved anything that hasn't been obvious for quite some time, but there have been many of us that have been trying to find a good carb source for our weightgainers. Supnut is understanding completely the point as to where I wanted to go in this thread.

The reason we have been looking for new a new carb source in powder form is because dextrose is bad for obvious reasons other than postworkout, and Malto has some bad points as well. Supnut explained some of that in his post. Just because a carb is complex, does not mean that it will turn into glucose that much slower, and in the end, fat. So we were looking for something that really had a slow conversion to glucose, to keep the body in a anabolic state through a longer period of time, much like so many companies are trying to with protein shakes as well. That was the whole point.

" if someone gives you moreapples then you can carry you loose some of them (prettend those become fat then) but if you can get them to hold on to some of them while you eat a few then you can carry more without dropping as much." - Supnut

You have a way with words. You saw my point though and I thank you.

**AliveGuy** · 06-02-2002, 12:18 PM

I don't mean to be critical and understand what your saying. In summary, my only objection is I don't see why anyone possibly needs a weight gainer of low GI and II, when all ya gotta do is eat food. Of course, there is going to be problems if your constantly on the go and so on...when I am, I cook a bunch of meals, throw em in tupperware, and crack open one every few hours. When I can't have direct access to real food, I make sure I just cook in advance. Believe it or not, this is a nice hardy way to go, and you can have a variety of good, filling meals without being limited to a MRP of 3 flavors. Sorry if I can't understand why this isn't a viable solution...I know Im not bringing in any novel idea about a perfect powder to have on non workout days, but I just don't htink its a neccessity.

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