Cleans in my routine?

[TrojanMan48]

Monday:
1) Flat Barbell Bench Press: 1 x 10,1x5,1x5,1x3
2) Incline DB Bench Press: 3 x 10
3) Bent-over Barbell Row: 3 x 12
4) Bent-over Rear Delt Flyes: 2 x 12
5) Weighted Crunches:4 x 12

Wednesday:
1) Barbell Squats:1 x 10, 1x8, 1x5,1x5
2) Walking Lunges: 3 x 12
3) Leg Curls: 3x 8
4) Wrist Roller: 3 x 30 seconds

Friday:
1) Incline DB Bench: 1 x 10, 3 max rep sets
2) Headsmashers: 3 X 8
3) Lat Pulldowns: 4 x 10
4) Barbell Shrugs: 3 x 12
5) Lateral Raises: 3 x 10
6) Barbell Curls: 3 x 10
~ Abdominal Circuit Training: Crunches, Toe Touches, & Candlesticks
3 Sets of 20+, NO REST


This is the modified Westside routine I'm going to use to put on some more mass for football (going to college next year, and I've lost a lot of weight during the offseason). The main compound lifts change around every 3 weeks, however I would like to add some sort of clean into the routine to help explosive power, particularly since I play linebacker. Where can I add this in my routine, what set/rep configuration should I use, and lastly what kind of clean would you suggest? Any help would be highly appreciated. Thanks!

[Person]

Monday:
1) Flat Barbell Bench Press: 1 x 10,1x5,1x5,1x3
2) Incline DB Bench Press: 3 x 10
3) Bent-over Barbell Row: 3 x 12
4) Bent-over Rear Delt Flyes: 2 x 12
5) Weighted Crunches:4 x 12

Wednesday:
1) Barbell Squats:1 x 10, 1x8, 1x5,1x5
2) Walking Lunges: 3 x 12
3) Leg Curls: 3x 8
4) Wrist Roller: 3 x 30 seconds

Friday:
1) Incline DB Bench: 1 x 10, 3 max rep sets
2) Headsmashers: 3 X 8
3) Lat Pulldowns: 4 x 10
4) Barbell Shrugs: 3 x 12
5) Lateral Raises: 3 x 10
6) Barbell Curls: 3 x 10
~ Abdominal Circuit Training: Crunches, Toe Touches, & Candlesticks
3 Sets of 20+, NO REST


This is the modified Westside routine I'm going to use to put on some more mass for football (going to college next year, and I've lost a lot of weight during the offseason). The main compound lifts change around every 3 weeks, however I would like to add some sort of clean into the routine to help explosive power, particularly since I play linebacker. Where can I add this in my routine, what set/rep configuration should I use, and lastly what kind of clean would you suggest? Any help would be highly appreciated. Thanks!

How is this westside at all? If you do a true westside program, you do not need cleans.

[Gamebreaker3233]

I think he means Defranco's modified westside program. I think one day of legs a week isn't enough(durring the offseason) so you could add a repetition leg day or a sprinting/plyos if you want to get faster. Sorry I didn't really answer question I don't really know where you could just add cleans with out doing another leg day.

[TrojanMan48]

You don't think it would be possible to add cleans in on leg day? (By the way my sprint and plyo work will be on Sat.)

Person: Yeah, it's Defranco's modded westside program built for athletes. Cleans are highly important to me as a football player.

[Person]

You don't think it would be possible to add cleans in on leg day? (By the way my sprint and plyo work will be on Sat.)

Person: Yeah, it's Defranco's modded westside program built for athletes. Cleans are highly important to me as a football player.

I would just add in a DE day and put that then on saturday with your sprints. If you do speed squats and speed deadlifts, there is not much of a need for powercleans.

EDIT:
I really wouldn't put them on your ME day unless the intensity was very low. Even then, I still may not.

[justacoach]

TrojanMan -

Personally, I think that the clean and other Olympic-style lifts are highly overrated for football training. If you are using Westside principles, you are already training your explosivity with the dynamic movements.

Olympic-style lifts are essentially glorified plyometrics. If you want to be a college football player, work on lateral movement, agility, foot speed, and rapid change of direction. A well-designed plyometric program is more sports-specific and a hell of a lot more fun than doing cleans.

By the way, I noticed that you are doing barbell curls. Are you sure that you need to spend time doing three sets on a single-jointed movement that really has no bearing on your performanve as a football players?

[SXULB52]

TrojanMan -

Personally, I think that the clean and other Olympic-style lifts are highly overrated for football training. If you are using Westside principles, you are already training your explosivity with the dynamic movements.

Olympic-style lifts are essentially glorified plyometrics. If you want to be a college football player, work on lateral movement, agility, foot speed, and rapid change of direction. A well-designed plyometric program is more sports-specific and a hell of a lot more fun than doing cleans.

By the way, I noticed that you are doing barbell curls. Are you sure that you need to spend time doing three sets on a single-jointed movement that really has no bearing on your performanve as a football players?

Are you serious? Cleans are one of the most important football lifts. Especially for linebackers. Cleans give you the power to bring your hips into a tackle. They teach explosiveness and speed. As for when to do them I would say if you can do them after your squats but warm up with three light sets of five on hang cleans and then do three hard sets of five on power cleans. By the way what college are you going to as I play myself for Saint Xavier University and I am a linebacker also.

[Person]

Are you serious? Cleans are one of the most important football lifts. Especially for linebackers. Cleans give you the power to bring your hips into a tackle. They teach explosiveness and speed. As for when to do them I would say if you can do them after your squats but warm up with three light sets of five on hang cleans and then do three hard sets of five on power cleans. By the way what college are you going to as I play myself for Saint Xavier University and I am a linebacker also.

If you are doing dynamic lifts already, there really is no need to do the olympic lifts. I like olympic lifts, but there is absolutely no need to do them if you are doing DE lifts already. If you are doing even sprints, you may not need them (i.e. Ben Johnson).

[justacoach]

Are you serious? Cleans are one of the most important football lifts. Especially for linebackers. Cleans give you the power to bring your hips into a tackle. They teach explosiveness and speed. As for when to do them I would say if you can do them after your squats but warm up with three light sets of five on hang cleans and then do three hard sets of five on power cleans. By the way what college are you going to as I play myself for Saint Xavier University and I am a linebacker also.

Uhhh, yes, I AM serious!

Cleans are an important football lift only for experienced and strong athletes. For the vast majority of high school athletes, cleans and other Olympic-style lifts are counterproductive at best, dangerous at worst. Why? Because the vast majority of high school athletes lack a solid foundation of strength, especially in the posterior chain and in the trunk, to perform these lifts effectively. The vast majority of high school athletes also lack the flexibility, skill, and coaching to benefit from these movements.

Understand that Olympic lifting is so complex that it comprises an ENTIRE SPORT by itself! Olympic lifters, many of whom are some of the greatest, most explosive athletes in the entire world, spend YEARS mastering the technique necessary to do these lifts correctly. These athletes usually benefit from expert coaching, instruction, and supervision as well. That level of expertise, instruction, and supervision is just not the norm in most high schools. Hell, the guy who I took the weightroom over from used to unlock the door at the end of the day and go home while the kids lifted unsupervised! Is that a good enviroment to be swinging around a bunch of weight? I don't think that it is. Unfortunately, many high school lifting "programs" follow this format.

Your situation is different. You are a collegiate athlete who probably does have the solid foundation of strength to perform these movements and also the coaching to make sure that you are doing things correctly and safely.

I no longer play football. I teach US History and coach football at a small, rural school in Northern Illinois. However, when I did play football at an NCAA D-III college back in the mid '90s, we routinely smoked the teams we played from St. Xavier's conference.

I don't normally talk trash, but I didn't appreciate your inference that because you are playing football at a small NAIA school that you are some kind of an expert. None of us are experts, not even the experts! That's why we are here-to learn from and to compare notes with one another!

[SXULB52]

I never said that I was an expert, and I did not inference it at all. I do agree that cleans are a difficult lift, however, I feel that even cleans done with light weight, even the bar to begin with, can greatly increase the explosiveness of an athlete, especially when combined with other dynamic lifts. My school is not the typical NAIA school either. No hard feelings though as I enjoy debating training techniques. Justacoach, what school do you coach at as I went to Tinley Park High School.

[justacoach]

I never said that I was an expert, and I did not inference it at all. I do agree that cleans are a difficult lift, however, I feel that even cleans done with light weight, even the bar to begin with, can greatly increase the explosiveness of an athlete, especially when combined with other dynamic lifts. My school is not the typical NAIA school either. No hard feelings though as I enjoy debating training techniques. Justacoach, what school do you coach at as I went to Tinley Park High School.

Okay, sounds good. No hard feelings!

I coach at a small, 2A school about 20 miles from Freeport, which is up here in Northwestern Illinois.

Tinley Park, huh? I know the area pretty well, at least the neighborhood around the old World Music Theater (think that it is called something else now?). Is that near Midlothian? I played college ball with a couple of tough-ass, hard-nosed kids from Bremen High School.

I'm originally from North High School in Naperville. I graduated back in '92.

I went to Aurora University. We had a pretty good rivalry going with Olivet Nazarene from '92-'96. Our JV also played St. Xavier's JV and a few other schools out of that conference. Is Quincy a member of that conference? We played Quincy a few times, too.

Anyway, it's nice to meet another guy from the South Suburbs online.

[christopl]

The Bottomline is that both training methodologies work, and for someone to say you do not need to do them is incorrect. If you use the same exercises all the time the body will adapt to the movement, and you will not improve what your ultimate outcome goal is, i.e. increased explosive and reactive strength/power.

You can use cleans or other olympic derivatives on Monday and/or Friday. What I would do with your workout on those days is:

1) Clean & Press: 1 x 4, 1 x 3, 4 x 2
2) Flat Barbell Bench Press: 1 x 10,1x5,1x5,1x3
3) Bent-over Barbell Row or Seated row: 3 x 12
4) Plyo Push Ups: 5x4 exposive, get air NO NEED TO CLAP HANDS, explode back up
5) Bent-over Rear Delt Flyes: 2 x 12
6) Weighted Crunches:4 x 12

Wednesday:
1) Barbell Squats:1 x 10, 1x8, 1x5,1x5
2) Walking Lunges: 3 x 12
3) RDL: 1 x10, 1 x 8, 3 x 6 (romanian DL)
4) Wrist Roller: 3 x 30 seconds

Friday:
1) Cleans OR Snatch: 1 x 4, 1 x 3, 4 x 2
2) Incline DB Bench: 1 x 10, 3 max rep sets
3) Headsmashers: 3 X 8
4) Lat Pulldowns: 4 x 10
5) Barbell Shrugs: 3 x 12
6) Lateral Raises: 3 x 10
7) Hammer Curls Curls: 3 x 10
~ Abdominal Circuit Training: Crunches, Toe Touches, & Candlesticks
3 Sets of 20+, NO REST

Remember, if you are training for football, then you want to incorporate Full Body/Total Body Movements on most if not all training days. You play football with your whole body right? So then you should train accordingly.

Obviously you do not want to train like the above workout year round without allowing for some "unloading days". Days where you would choose to omit the Squat, and do a lighter lift such as a Leg Circuit.

Leg Circuit: Start with just your body weight and add weight over several weeks. I used to do this with 110 Fixed bar, and then go to squat jumps with 135.

1) Step Ups x20
2) Alt. Lunges in place x 20
3) Split Squat Jumps x 20
4) Squat Jumps x 10

You go from ex#1-4 with no rest. This is a good way to change up your routine, and a great way to build work capacity especially as the season approaches.

One thing you need to know is that there are many different Schools of thought when it comes to training, and each has there own cult like following that believes the other methodology is bogus. Do not become narrow minded use each of the different methodologies synergistically, they all work and have a purpose in reaching your goal.

[Person]

The Bottomline is that both training methodologies work, and for someone to say you do not need to do them is incorrect. If you use the same exercises all the time the body will adapt to the movement, and you will not improve what your ultimate outcome goal is, i.e. increased explosive and reactive strength/power.

Tell this to the Westside guys, you don't see them training with powercleans and they are plenty powerful and explosive.

Speed strength and strength speed lifts are great and necessary for most, but do not confuse that with having to use olympic lifts. High pulls, speed squats, and speed deadlifts are all alternatives to olympic lifts for strength-speed exercises. As far as speed-strength, jumps squats, plyos, and any ballistic exercises are great as well.

[christopl]

Look, what i am saying is simple common sense, if you use the same training technique all the time it becomes stale. Does that not make sense to you? Did I say that West Side does not work?

You really need to put things in perspective, his guys are strongest around bottom line, BUT, does that mean that for an athlete to use a variety of training methodologies is wrong? Heck NO!!

What works for Dorian Yates does not necessarily work for me. There are differences in PURE Strength athletes, and Football athletes. Just because track sprinters are fast does not make them good football players. Track speed = straight ahead speed.

Power Cleans and Olympic Lifts require far more athleticism than Dead Lifts. Football requires Speed, agility, athleticism, power, etc. Pure power sports require pure power. So one can use pure power sport training techniques to enhance pure power. But olympic lifts can increase total body explosiveness, and athleticism. Dude I use West Side techniques, ok , they work, you on the other hand have chosen to become one dimensional in your training endevour, and I am sorry to hear that...

[christopl]

I am referring to Olypic lift derivatives such as Clean Pulls, High Pulls, Snatch Pulls, Db Snatch, Hang Cleans/Snatch, NOT just pure cleans.

[Person]

Look, what i am saying is simple common sense, if you use the same training technique all the time it becomes stale. Does that not make sense to you? Did I say that West Side does not work?

You really need to put things in perspective, his guys are strongest around bottom line, BUT, does that mean that for an athlete to use a variety of training methodologies is wrong? Heck NO!!

What works for Dorian Yates does not necessarily work for me. There are differences in PURE Strength athletes, and Football athletes. Just because track sprinters are fast does not make them good football players. Track speed = straight ahead speed.

Power Cleans and Olympic Lifts require far more athleticism than Dead Lifts. Football requires Speed, agility, athleticism, power, etc. Pure power sports require pure power. So one can use pure power sport training techniques to enhance pure power. But olympic lifts can increase total body explosiveness, and athleticism. Dude I use West Side techniques, ok , they work, you on the other hand have chosen to become one dimensional in your training endevour, and I am sorry to hear that...

You do realize that speed squats and speed deads increase explosiveness and RFD? Along with bands/chains, these can be extremely effective alone. How do powercleans require more athleticism specific to football? Yeah, they do take a little more cooridnation and learning, but that doesn't somehow make it a more effective lift (look at high pulls, which take no more, if not less cooridnation than speed squats with accomodated resistance). Squats and deads recruit more motor units at maximal weights, so I would be hard pressed to even say they require more cooridnation.
Also, I never said that I am one dimensional. I myself have performed both, although after a recent injury, olympic lifts have not been possible.

Your comparison between track athletes and football athletes is laughable since MANY of the top track athletes were/are very good football players. Speed is a general trait to all sports. If you are fast on the track, you are going to be fast on the field no other way about it. Obviously they may not be the best football players (like football players aren't the best track runners since they don't train for it), but to try and call on the fact that they train "straight ahead speed" is just ignorant. High velocity leg movements (speed) are again, a GENERAL quality.

My post was made because you said someone is incorrect if they say you don't need to do powercleans (or other olympic variations). There are athletes in MANY sports who have not performed powercleans are are plenty successful. Most priminantly, Ben Johnson never did and he was plenty explosive. The Westside guys don't. On a smaller scale, Joe DeFranco's guys don't.

[SXULB52]

Justacoach, I actually live in Midlothian, I moved during my junior year and just stayed at Tinley. Quincy is not in our conference but Olivet is. The World Music Theater owner was federally indicted and sold it to Tweeter. It is now the Tweeter Center, a pretty dumb name if you ask me. I play with someone from Bremen now, he plays guard. No one from Naperville but a few from Lincoln Way.
As to the workout plan, I feel that as long as explosiveness and speed are developed, however it is done, then the program is good. Cycling in different exercises might help too especially faster based movement at the end of the program and slower based movements at the start of the program in order not to peak too early. The speed peak may or may not affect the overall effects of the program but I do know from my track experience that peaking can affect your overall sprint speed and endurance. Although I do not know if lifting can be affected by a peak as much as running.

[user321653_345]

Look, what i am saying is simple common sense, if you use the same training technique all the time it becomes stale. Does that not make sense to you? Did I say that West Side does not work?

You really need to put things in perspective, his guys are strongest around bottom line, BUT, does that mean that for an athlete to use a variety of training methodologies is wrong? Heck NO!!

What works for Dorian Yates does not necessarily work for me. There are differences in PURE Strength athletes, and Football athletes. Just because track sprinters are fast does not make them good football players. Track speed = straight ahead speed.

Power Cleans and Olympic Lifts require far more athleticism than Dead Lifts. Football requires Speed, agility, athleticism, power, etc. Pure power sports require pure power. So one can use pure power sport training techniques to enhance pure power. But olympic lifts can increase total body explosiveness, and athleticism. Dude I use West Side techniques, ok , they work, you on the other hand have chosen to become one dimensional in your training endevour, and I am sorry to hear that...

You have to watch out for adding too many different things to a program. While certain elements such as power cleans are great for explosiveness, they are simply beating a dead horse when you have speed squats and bench. It would be great to have a program that had maximal strength, oly lifts, dynamic effort lifts, plyos, sprint training, hypertrophy lifting, conditioning, medicine ball work, but obviously you are training too many elements and you will never progress with so many stimuli.

[christopl]

Look Person, once again you have missed my point, I explained that having Variety in a Workout Program is essential, and if incorporated into a program appropriately then it can only enhance the overall outcome.

I have used bands, chains, box squats, etc. thay are all great...what I am saying is if you use all of that in a routine timed appropriately it can only help. And for your speed (track Speed VS Football Speed) what I am saying is if you train to run straight ahead for 100meters, then you are not traing the muscles and nervous system to decellerate the body which can and does cause ligamentous injury. Yes if you put someone who runs the 100m in 9 sec on a football field, they will be fast. BUT for how long? A football game is 60 min and the whole event takes 3+hours. The duration of the event, and the specific movements, i.e. straight ahead speed VS lateral speed/accelleration/decelleration, is entirely different.

Stats:
Age:35
6'3" 285
Best 40 time: 4.8 @ 260
20 yd shuttle:4.75
Cleans:360 PB
Snatch: 225 PB
Incline Bench: 365
Flat:390
Squat:500
Complex: 225x5 (Clean & Press>RDL>Bent Row)
Vertical:34"

Played DL/OL College, Fullback Semi Pro...

[Person]

Look Person, once again you have missed my point, I explained that having Variety in a Workout Program is essential, and if incorporated into a program appropriately then it can only enhance the overall outcome.

I have used bands, chains, box squats, etc. thay are all great...what I am saying is if you use all of that in a routine timed appropriately it can only help. And for your speed (track Speed VS Football Speed) what I am saying is if you train to run straight ahead for 100meters, then you are not traing the muscles and nervous system to decellerate the body which can and does cause ligamentous injury. Yes if you put someone who runs the 100m in 9 sec on a football field, they will be fast. BUT for how long? A football game is 60 min and the whole event takes 3+hours. The duration of the event, and the specific movements, i.e. straight ahead speed VS lateral speed/accelleration/decelleration, is entirely different.

Stats:
Age:35
6'3" 285
Best 40 time: 4.8 @ 260
20 yd shuttle:4.75
Cleans:360 PB
Snatch: 225 PB
Incline Bench: 365
Flat:390
Squat:500
Complex: 225x5 (Clean & Press>RDL>Bent Row)
Vertical:34"

Played DL/OL College, Fullback Semi Pro...

Well let's see, acceleration is key to the 100m, so yes that is not a problem. As for cutting and stopping quickly, that is most related to high levels of eccentric strength, which can be developed through sprints and plyos. You also neglect the fact that the faster you are, the higher your speed reserve is. That means you can run at a slower speed easier and for longer, which would surely aid in cutting and running.

Also, you're getting into conditioning. I would probably say that sprinters at the highest level are more than conditioned enough (hell, in many sprint programs 3+ days a week even during the competitive season is spent doing some form of conditioning!).

This is way off the point though. Sure olympic lifts can and do work, but if you are already doing speed-strength lifts (speed squats, deads, bench, etc) there is no need real need for them. You come to the point where adding in so much crap that you lose the intensity on all your lifts as a whole.

And yes your lifts are impressive, but that doesn't somehow mean you are some genius here. A track coach at my school who also is one of the biggest helps with my training and overall knowledge is stronger than you at a lighter weight. Does that mean he automatically knows more than you? Not at all.

[christopl]

I Graduated Cum Laude with a Degree in Exercise Physiology @ UMASS Boston, I am a former Strength Coach @ Seton Hall U in NJ. I have every cert you can imagine, I have been lifitng since I was 13. I played 4 years of Football, and wrestled in HS, played 2 years of Football in College, 1 year semi-pro, I have trained Pro athletes, special needs kids. I have been to dozens of seminars & conferences where Strength Coaches such as, Johnny Parker, Mike Boyle, Vern Gambetta, Mike Clark, Louie Simmons, Charles Poloquin, Bill Gillespie to name a few.

My knowledge comes from a multitude of sources, both practical and textbook. THE BOTTOM LINE IS, and you said it yourself, "if you beat a dead Horse...". So if you ONLY use West Side principles then....

It is feasible to use a little bit of the many different Training methods, NOT ALL AT THE SAME TIME, and not overtrain. One, it makes the workout more interesting, and I can tell you from training Teenagers and college students, if you do not mix it up, then you WILL lose the interest of the Athlete.

Your arguemnt is if you do "X" then you do not need to do "Y"...

X= increased explosiveness
Y= increased explosiveness

Why could you not use a periodized system that incorporates a multitude of methodologies? You can!! Again, not all at the same time, but in phases.

I have written year round training programs for college, pro athletes, teenage, and special needs kiids. Variety, once again is essential! Bottomline!!

[Person]

If you have so much variety, how do you quantify progress? Obviously you need to periodize, but that doesn't mean you need to constantly bring in new and different stimuli that can cause tightness and require some more accumulation.

Look, I have done clean variations myself and like them, but I have also seen very strong athletes who simply cannot do them (although they can usually do high pulls). This does not mean that they are a poor athlete, they are just not really good at them. There are many examples across the sporting world of this. Why waste time on something that may take weeks, if not months to perfect when you already are getting results elsewhere? Bleed the well till it's try and take the results that you can get before you worry about adding in some new stimulus.

[christopl]

There are many ways to quantify progress. Vertical Jump, SLS, Clean Max, Bench Max, 20 yd shuttle, long jump, 880 yd shuttle, Push Jerk Max, med ball toss for distance.

BUT most importantly, the best test is on the field....

Let me ask you a question, you come off as being one dimensional and closed minded. How old are you?

Because it is obvious that you believe in one training protocol. The best advice I can give you is to learn from many different philosophies and methodologies, because as I mentioned they all have a place and all can increase the ultimate outcome goal...increased exposive strength.

Another analogy, if a Football team had a Phenominal running game, but no passing game, then would they be balanced, no. The same can be said for Sport Specific Training. If you always use only one method, then you are not balanced, and your training will become stale. I just spoke to one of my co-workers, Joe Trippy, who played baseball @ UWasington & for The Atlanta Braves. He was at UW when Bill Gillespie was there as a Strength Coach. I asked him when you were there did Bill use Chains and Bands all the time, or did he use one training method all the time he said no. Bill is now the head strength coach for The Seattle Seahawks.

Trust me you need to think a little more "outside the box". This whole discussion with you is getting old, and I can see that it is obvious that you lack the practical application of what you have learned at a Louie Simmons Workshop. I would bet that you think that a Functional exercise like the Wood Chop, or reverse Wood Chop would not benefit an athlete involved in a Strength/power/speed sport. Heck you probably don't even know what the **** a Wood Chop is...

[Person]

Let me ask you a question, you come off as being one dimensional and closed minded.

Could you please tell me how I am one dimensional? I have said so many times that olympic lift variations can be used and should be DEPENDING ON THE SITUATION. What I have said though is that I see absolutely no reason to include yet another lift into an already filled routine that includes speed-strength, strength-speed, and max effort lifts (Westside).

Because it is obvious that you believe in one training protocol. The best advice I can give you is to learn from many different philosophies and methodologies, because as I mentioned they all have a place and all can increase the ultimate outcome goal...increased exposive strength.

Actually no, I don't personally use Westside at the moment, but rather, I implement basic CFTS at the moment. You seem to not read everything I have said, but rather, look for something to attack (i.e. not supporting olympic lifts 100% of the time). I have recommended many different philosophies to people, including olympic lifts, of course, depending on the situation.

Another analogy, if a Football team had a Phenominal running game, but no passing game, then would they be balanced, no. The same can be said for Sport Specific Training. If you always use only one method, then you are not balanced, and your training will become stale. I just spoke to one of my co-workers, Joe Trippy, who played baseball @ UWasington & for The Atlanta Braves. He was at UW when Bill Gillespie was there as a Strength Coach. I asked him when you were there did Bill use Chains and Bands all the time, or did he use one training method all the time he said no. Bill is now the head strength coach for The Seattle Seahawks.

How is a powerclean anymore specific than a speed squat?

Trust me you need to think a little more "outside the box". This whole discussion with you is getting old, and I can see that it is obvious that you lack the practical application of what you have learned at a Louie Simmons Workshop. I would bet that you think that a Functional exercise like the Wood Chop, or reverse Wood Chop would not benefit an athlete involved in a Strength/power/speed sport. Heck you probably don't even know what the **** a Wood Chop is...

Too bad I use various chops, throws, and other exercises each medicineball and low intensity session, ass. On top of that particular exercise, I use many other so-called "functional" exercises for GPP and low intensity work. I wouldn't really consider them anymore functional than a squat or bench since strength is a pretty general quality.

Instead of coming off like an ass and disregarding any logical and coherent argument, why don't you explain why you think the olympic lifts offer different benefits than the lifts I have mentioned? I would be interested to hear how their benefits are significantly different than a speed squat or speed dead.

Also, I have not brought up bands and chains into this matter. Why do you insist on continually making an argument against them? It seems like you personally have something against Westside and are using this post to vent or some crap.

[christopl]

How would you quantify progress using only westside techniques, Bench, Squat, DL.... You can quantify progress using any test for max strength, power, speed, etc. So why could you not use the same tests. The Tests in and of themsleves test for a specific outcome, i.e, Str, Power, Speed. The outcome is universal, and there are many ways too skin a cat.

West Side does what? Increases explosive strength right? Yes. Olympic lifts do what? The same, right? Yes! Plyos do what? Increase exposive strength right? Yes!

So how do you quantify progress? By using a test that tests for an increase in explosive str.

Again, I am not saying that cleans are a magic potion, My point is that if there are many ways to increase exposive str, then use all of them where and when appropriate in a periodized routine. By you disagreeing with my point you are going against what many of the top strength coaches in the US, Europe, as well as Russia do. Have you heard of Mel Siff, he wrote a book called Supertraining, I suggest you read it...

[Person]

[QUOTE=christopl]How would you quantify progress using only westside techniques, Bench, Squat, DL.... You can quantify progress using any test for max strength, power, speed, etc. So why could you not use the same tests. The Tests in and of themsleves test for a specific outcome, i.e, Str, Power, Speed. The outcome is universal, and there are many ways too skin a cat.

West Side does what? Increases explosive strength right? Yes. Olympic lifts do what? The same, right? Yes! Plyos do what? Increase exposive strength right? Yes!

So how do you quantify progress? By using a test that tests for an increase in explosive str.

Again, I am not saying that cleans are a magic potion, My point is that if there are many ways to increase exposive str, then use all of them where and when appropriate in a periodized routine. By you disagreeing with my point you are going against what many of the top strength coaches in the US, Europe, as well as Russia do. Have you heard of Mel Siff, he wrote a book called Supertraining, I suggest you read it...

The comment on quantifying progress is more between each sessions, rather than max-outs or field sessions. That was actually a question so I could see where you are coming from, not to try to correct you.

I have already agreed with you that there are many ways! Are you dyslexic? And I am still going to have to disagree with you on including ALL methods and exercises. I can look at possibly the most successful sprint system in the world to see this. CFTS has worked without including ANY speed-strength or strength-speed lifts (yes, including olympic lifts) and very low volume plyos. Possibly the most explosive athlete ever was created in this system. You can look at successful olympic lifting programs and see that they are not doing speed bench or max effort 4 board presses. This is the other side of the coin. You cannot and should not include EVERYTING.

Your condescending talk does not help your point. Yes, I have read things from Mel Siff (although I have not read ALL of Supertraining, only parts), so there is no need for your king of the hill attitude.

Look, I have already said you have good lifts and that's awesome you played semi-pro ball. If you think this makes you an expert though that is far from the case (just as anything I do doesn't necessarily make me an expert in any way. I have not, nor have you, produced any national or world class athletes). If you do want to keep this up though, I will point out these strength:weight numbers:
Squat: 1.75
Powerclean: 1.26
Bench: 1.36

I'll leave it at that. I'll leave you and this thread alone now.

[christopl]

Dude are can you read? Where have I suggested that chains/bands/West Side principles do not work? All along I said they do, I have used them, in fact when I hit my PB for Hang Clean 360, I was doing Squats with chains. I have repeatedly said that West Side works, I agree with the philosophy that it works. I disagree with your opinion, and it is an opinion, not based on fact, that you should only use those techniques to enhance explosive str. Louie may say that you do not need to do OL lifts, but i disagree, and if you knew who the **** Mel Siff was you would see that he believes that they work too. In fact he was with Louie Simmons @ a workshop I went to Vegas. They both presented their methodologies, and obviously they work Dumbass!!

The issue that we have been debating about for the last few days is whether or not Cleans or Olympic Lift derivatives can and should be used to enhance explosive strength. You say there is no need because you can get the same effect from doing Westside techniques, I agreed that those techniques work, but I suggested that it would benefit an athlete more to use a multitude of training techniques to enhance explosive str.

If you do the same exercise movement, regardless of manipulating the intensity and lift volume you can overtrain and in the end your routine is stale. How can you not see where I am coming from?

You obviously are have selective retention because you are selectively choosing to ignore what I am saying, and you come back with a statement that says I do not think that bands and chains work. What the ****???

You are the biggest ****ing knuckle head I have ever spoken to in my life, on top of that you **** face you are an ignoramous.

[Person]

Dude are can you read? Where have I suggested that chains/bands/West Side principles do not work? All along I said they do, I have used them, in fact when I hit my PB for Hang Clean 360, I was doing Squats with chains. I have repeatedly said that West Side works, I agree with the philosophy that it works. I disagree with your opinion, and it is an opinion, not based on fact, that you should only use those techniques to enhance explosive str. Louie may say that you do not need to do OL lifts, but i disagree, and if you knew who the **** Mel Siff was you would see that he believes that they work too. In fact he was with Louie Simmons @ a workshop I went to Vegas. They both presented their methodologies, and obviously they work Dumbass!!

Re-read my post. I know who Mel Siff is. I read one of his many articles just a couple days ago. Do you think you're special because you know his name or something?

The issue that we have been debating about for the last few days is whether or not Cleans or Olympic Lift derivatives can and should be used to enhance explosive strength. You say there is no need because you can get the same effect from doing Westside techniques, I agreed that those techniques work, but I suggested that it would benefit an athlete more to use a multitude of training techniques to enhance explosive str.
If you do the same exercise movement, regardless of manipulating the intensity and lift volume you can overtrain and in the end your routine is stale. How can you not see where I am coming from?

When did I say not to change lifts? In a Westside routine, like the one he has proposed, cleans do not really have their place. Also, I would probably have to disagree with you the volume and intensity changes aren't enough. CFTS uses the same lifts throughout athletes' careers and seasons. The only thing that happens besides intensity/volume changes is the number of lifts are reduced from GPP-->SPP-->Pre-Comp-->Comp. The results speak for themselves (2 x 6 x 600lbs at 175lbs without a suit).

You obviously are have selective retention because you are selectively choosing to ignore what I am saying, and you come back with a statement that says I do not think that bands and chains work. What the ****???

I re-read what you said and I misspoke. You did not attack them, but you did insinuate that they are not enough. My main point though is that I never even brought these up, yet you go and say they are not enough. What is the point?

You are the biggest ****ing knuckle head I have ever spoken to in my life, on top of that you **** face you are an ignoramous.

Coming from a so-called 35 year old.. right. Also, I think you mean ignoramus.

[christopl]

Hey Dude,

I like using West Side techniques, I never said they do not work, I never said they are not enough, what I said was that it would benefit an athlete to use both, not necessarily at the same time. I know that if you do Cleans, Plyos, And West Side techniques all at the same time that you would be over training.

We would probably get along if we knew each other, I apologize for getting "worked up". I am taking Tren & Winny right now so I am a little edgy...

We just disagree that it would be advantagous to use a little west side and a little Olympic lifts in an athletes periodization model during a training year. It is OK to disagree.

Mel is like the Father of OL Lifts, etc, Louie is the Father of West Side. Both of them know that each of their training models work. I spoke to Louie @ That seminar in Vegas, he told me that he believes that US Wieght Lifters on the US Olypic team would perform better if they used his methods. And they very well may due to the fact that they would be exposing themselves to a new training stimulus.

Mel agrees with the West Side techniques, but probably feels that if both were used during the training year that it would benefit.

Look at the Bulgarian or Iranian OL lifter the guy who snatched like 500lbs. Obviously at that level it becomes highly technical, but if he never used West Side techniques and then incorporated them into his routine, imagine what he would do.

I am sorry for getting heated, I did not mean to come off condesending, I believe in West Side, I believe in OL lifts, I believe that a variety of training methodologies in a routine is essential and beneficial