Where am I going wrong? Can you help? (in-depth post)
Hello,
I'm not entirely sure which section to post this under as they are all relevant, but Nutrition is said to be 80% of BB'ing so I'll try here.
Gender: Male
Age: 30
Height: 5ft 8in (approx)
Weight: 150lbs
Body Fat %: 12% (Salter Bioelectrical Impedance scales)
Type: Primarily Ectomorph
Background:
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I first used weights at 14yrs old in school and have on and off always done some form of resistance training either at home or at a gym. I knew very little about BB'ing and assumed at the time you just had to train for longer to get bigger and food never crossed my mind. I tried quite seriously to increase my size about 6 years ago. I spent up to 3 hours in the gym doing a full body workout 3 times a week. I perhaps went from 8stone (112lbs?) to 8.5stone (120lbs?), but managed to increase my strength significantly, until I realise that I was cheating a lot and only doing partial range of motion and was over training.
At 27yrs old I decided I'd had enough and turned to the Internet to find out how to do it properly. My aim was at 30 to be in the best shape of my life, fortunately I can say this is probably the case so some success there. I found bodybuilding.com and read at least an hour a day for a year (probably). Amongst the contradictions i tried to piece together a decent plan with nutrition as my primary focus for once and so the spreadsheets began.
My next mistake I made was before I had any way to measure BF% so pushed for scale weight at a rate of 2lbs a week. After about a year with plateaus I'd put on 20kg or 44lbs and weighed 175lbs, my heaviest ever. Unfortunately looking back now I'd estimate my BF% to have been 20-25%, totally unacceptable for me.
I then went on a long cutting cycle for the best part of a year with many plateaus. It started well where I was loosing 80-90% fat vs. 10-20% muscle each week until I got down to around 11%bf where I'd lowered my calories so much (1500) and was doing my 3 day/week workout split and up to 1.5hours of cardio on off days. I plateau almost every other week and this is where I lost the most of any muscle I'd put on.
Since this time up to now I've tried bulking and cutting with 40/40/20 p/c/f ratio's (up to 325grams protein daily @ 150lbs bodyweight)) and also 1.5grams of protein per lb of bodyweight, which was something like 25/55/20 p/c/f.
I'm now stuck in the same cycle. It doesn't seem to matter what I eat (always clean foods) or what my workout plan is, which I vary often, I end up with the same results. If I put on weight my lbm and fat scale up together in whatever ratio they like and likewise down together.
I weigh myself weekly first thing on Monday mornings.
Example: weigh-in (compared to previous week)
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Date: 09-Jul-07
Weight 149.4lbs
BF%: 11.9%
Total Fat: 17.8lbs
LBM: 131.6lbs
Weight Change: 1.2lbs
Fat Change: 0.7lbs
LBM Change: 0.5lbs
Looking back to when I weighed the same total weight shows the rest of the stats are the same and that was 3 months ago mid-cut, now I'm mid-bulk. I can make these same comparisons at different weights going back years, so hopefully you can see the problem. If I bulk and gain 10lbs, then cut and drop 10lbs I'll be at the same place I started instead of having more lbm and less fat.
I'm now lost with more information and data than I can post without overwhelming, I'm either repeatedly making the same mistakes over and over without realising or I'm cursed with poor genetics. Either way I have the will power and discipline to go on, but I'd really like some experienced advice to help me progress successfully, without then undoing it all.
Workout
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Equipment:
I bought a bodysolid power rack and incline / decline bench and a set of Olympic weights and dumbbells and workout in my garage. This seemed to be the recommended approach on the forum.
3 day split (M - W - F)
My old workouts have been 2 sets of 8-12 reps for each exercise concentrating more on form than weight progression. My current workout for the past 8 weeks is loosely based on Beast's 666 method (6 sets of 6 reps in 6 minutes), however some exercises I need a significant amount of rest between sets especially deadlifts, which alone can take me 40minutes to complete as I sometimes nearly collapse or feel faint from pushing so hard.
I'm trying weight progression aiming for the heaviest weight I can just get 6 reps out with. I'll aim to do 2 sets then lower the weight for 2 sets, then lower again for the final 2 sets as needed. When I can complete 3 sets with the same heaviest weight I will increase the next week.
Additional warmup sets used where needed, i.e. squats, DL's 1st exercise of each workout and up to 5minutes of skipping.
Monday: Back / Biceps
Deadlifts
Wide Grip Pull-ups (palms down) alternate weekly behind neck / in front of neck
Seated Bicep Curls
Wednesday: Chest / Shoulders / Triceps
Seated Shoulder Press
Incline Bench Press
Decline Bench Press
BB Shrugs - 2sets Wide grip - 2 sets Medium Grip - 2 sets narrow grip. Reverse order weekly
Laying Tricep Extensions (tricep bar)
Side Lateral Raises - weekly swap with rear lat raises first
Rear Lateral Raises - weekly swap with side lat raises first
Friday: Legs / Abs
Squats - knees almost together, to parallel or just below
Calf Raises - 6 sets of 10 reps BB on back
Abs (unknown) - balance on bench, raise legs and shoulders together. 6 sets of 10 reps
This is the hardest routine I've had, Mondays deadlifts are genuinely a nightmare to get through and maybe too much?
Diet / Nutrition
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I'm not sure where to start with this section. I've read and experimented and have detailed spreadsheets dating back to early 2005 listing calories, macronutrient ratios weight of each food source per meal etc. I've ranged calories from as low as 1500 up to 3500, whatever was required to get the weight moving in the right direction.
I have 5 meals per day spaced about 3hours apart not including a workout shake. I've tried different macro ratios, evenly spacing calories across all meals, calorie tapering and carb cycling, all yield the same results.
The past 6months? I've been trying carb cycling and haven't really tracked it through spreadsheets due to the amount of variation, but have kept a basic days fixed amount. OK I'm getting lost in info.
Current Diet:
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Meal 1: Carbs
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* Supplements - Multivitamin Tablet + Fish Oil Cap + VitC Tablet
* 250ml Multivitamin Juice
* 100g-120g Quaker Rolled Oats - Blender
* 100g Cottage Cheese - Blender
* 20g Whey Concentrate - Blender
Workout 1-1.5hours later on workout days
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* 250ml Lucozade + Water + 20g Whey Concentrate - sipped throughout workout
* 150g Banana - once workout finished
Meal 2: Carbs
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* 100g of WW Pasta or Brown Basmati Rice (uncooked weight)
* 120g Chicken
* Veg: Selection of Tomato / Mushroom / Spinach / Peppers / Lettuce etc
Meal 3:Carbs
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* 60g-80g Quaker Rolled Oats
* 20g? Handful of Raisins
* 2 Slices of WW Bread
* 30g Turkey
* 56g LF Cheese
* 10g-20g? Real Mayonnaise
* Veg: Selection of Tomato / Mushroom / Spinach / Peppers / Lettuce etc
Meal 4: No Carbs
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* 200g Cottage Cheese
* Apple
* Either 10ml Flaxseed Oil or 20g Natural Peanut Butter
Meal 5: No Carbs
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* 200g Cottage Cheese
* Suppliments - Multivitamin Tablet + VitC Tablet
Additional:
* 1-5 cups of Green, Red or White Tea
Approximate Totals:
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Calories: 2,200
Protein: 180g (33%)
Carbs: 263g (47%)
Fat: 49g (20%)
I used to put a banana into the blender with Meal 1, adjusting the oats as carb source to compensate. I stopped as I read it was a higher GI food in case it was aiding fat storage and kept it post workout, but for taste it would be nice to put back in. I used to drink up to 2 pints of milk a day, but as an experiment cut it out to see if it was affecting me with lactose intolerance. I found that it was only slightly on occasion with bloating and feeling full and at extreme cases causing pain down my oeso****us. Layne Norton (who I have tremendous respect for) wrote a good article on milk a while ago. I used to put bloating down to Creatine Mono that I've tried a few times over the years, but now I'm wondering if it was milk or lactose related those times or a combination.
Sundays are generally Low or No Carb days and I'll usually have a triple whole egg omelette with all sorts in it, the total daily protein count will be higher than other days, but calories lower.
This is enough to gain roughly 1lb / week body weight at the moment. It seems a low amount, but I'm at a computer the rest of the time and seldom get other activities outside of workouts. Finally I try to drink 4 litres of water each day excluding tea and water in meals and get around 9 hours of sleep a night.
Feel free to ask any questions you think relevant or data requests or if keeping a timescale record in the journal section would help.
All the best
Jayee
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Results 1 to 8 of 8
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07-11-2007, 05:04 AM #1Got Will Power?
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Where am I going wrong? Can you help? (in-depth post)
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07-11-2007, 05:17 AM #2Banned
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suggestions are listed above.. u need to make some changes.. a lot .. but i hope they help! good luckOriginally Posted by Jayee
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07-11-2007, 05:51 AM #3Registered User
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Try the changes LazyieBone suggested first before this.
Calories actually seem low for a person your weight exercising , but since you've tracked a lot I'll assume 2200 calories puts on 1.2 lbs/week for you. What amount of calories do you take in when cutting?
I'd drop the calories to 2000.(still seems too few, oh well) and shoot for .5lbs/week. You don't need to gain 26lbs in 6 months. 26lbs in a year is a better goal. It should be easier to control your fat gain this way.
149.4 + 26 = 175.4lb @ 11.9BF% = 154.5 LBM
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07-11-2007, 09:50 AM #4Registered User
- Join Date: Jun 2007
- Age: 47
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the bioelectrical impedance analyzer is fine for tracking changes in body fat, but don't put too much stock in the actual value it gives you.
My Omron body fat analyzer says I'm 16% BF but I've been weighed under water so I know my body fat is actually 18.2%.
I am betting your body fat is probably more like 14 to 15%
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07-11-2007, 10:07 AM #5Eternal Lurker
- Join Date: Mar 2005
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Quote: I'm trying weight progression aiming for the heaviest weight I can just get 6 reps out with. I'll aim to do 2 sets then lower the weight for 2 sets, then lower again for the final 2 sets as needed.
Er, that sounds messed up to me. For squats and deadlifts you do the heaviest weight you can do first (I hope you're warming up properly) and then back off with limited rest to where you're about to pass out and then continue this every week? Usually you shouldn't do deadlifts heavy twice a week to begin with, it's too draining on your body. Try varying your routine and leaving out the drop sets sometimes, like every other week work up to a max triple or set of five in deadlifts/squats for example."There is no room for failure now. The innocent must die."
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07-11-2007, 10:30 AM #6Registered User
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Maybe all your nutrition and exercise planning is perfect....maybe it just comes down to whether or not your pushing yourself hard enough in the gym and using correct form.
Fortuna Favet Fortibus
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07-11-2007, 10:47 AM #7Banned
- Join Date: Mar 2007
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No way i'm reading that...
but a 10 lb bulk then cut cycle isn't sufficient.
You need to bulk 20 pounds at LEAST, and then cut.
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07-12-2007, 09:05 AM #8Got Will Power?
- Join Date: Jul 2007
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Hello again,
I feel like Mr.T just drove up in a large tank, called me pathetic and threw a snickers bar at my head saying, "Get some nuts!"
To keep this easier to follow and with your help I'll address nutrition first and then once that's done change the workout program.
LayzieBone085: I'd like to say a few words on some comments you made that seemed a little harsh or exaggerated. Approximately 20% of calories are from fat, which is within a recommended range I've read many times on this and other forums. Different sources recommend different ratios of each macronutrient, which is an example of the contradictions I mentioned you run into when gathering information from such a broad knowledge base. Mayonnaise has been listed as one of many recommended fat source in carb cycling articles written by Twin Peak for example, although I realise many people argue for and against its use.
A note on the protein intake I mentioned 325g @ 150lbs. That was an example of one of the recommendations I have followed in the past. I was not trying to prove anything with this figure, but if any conclusions are to be drawn then it again illustrates the contradictions. A year or 2 ago when I was on this plan a 40p/40c/20f macronutrient ratio was repeatedly mentioned. At the time I required 3250 cal, which breaks down to 325g P, 325g C, 72g F.
I do appreciate your advice and certainly for taking the time to trawl through the mammoth post I wrote. I'll focus on the diet and come back to your comments on the workout plan. From your suggestions I believe that I focused a little too much on hitting the macronutrient target at the expense of the sources I get them from. I've started over a blank spreadsheet to calculate all the calories and ratios and have tried to follow your advice to revise the diet.
Is this a step in the right direction and are there any changes you'd like to make?
Meal 1: (683 cal, 27g P, 96g C, 20g F)
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* Supplements - Multivitamin Tablet + Fish Oil Cap + VitC Tablet
* 250ml Multivitamin Juice
* 110g Whole Eggs (2 large)
* 100g Quaker Rolled Oats - Blender
* Fruit (Apple / Pear / Strawberries / Cherries etc) - Blender
Workout 1-1.5hours later on workout days (450 cal, 34g P, 72g C, 3g F)
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* 250ml Lucozade + Water + 40g Whey Concentrate (2 scoops) - sipped throughout workout
* 150g Banana - once workout finished
Meal 2: (514 cal, 45g P, 81g C, 4g F)
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* 100g of WW Pasta or Brown Basmati Rice (uncooked weight)
* 120g Chicken
* Veg: Selection of Tomato / Mushroom / Spinach / Peppers / Lettuce etc
Meal 3: (400 cal, 25g P, 46g C, 13g F)
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* 2 Slices of WW Bread
* 60g Turkey
* Veg: Selection of Tomato / Carrot / Spinach / Peppers / Lettuce etc
* 20g Almonds
Meal 4: (410 cal, 43g P, 15g C, 19g F)
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* 200ml Skimmed Milk (to take oil in)
* 10ml Flaxseed Oil
* 10ml E.V.Olive Oil
* 150g Tuna
* Apple Salad
Meal 5: (394 cal, 43g P, 12g C, 19g F)
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* 250g Cottage Cheese
* 30g Natural Peanut Butter
* Supplements - Multivitamin Tablet
Additional:
* 1-5 cups of Green, Red or White Tea
Totals:
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Non-Workout Day: 2,400 cal, 182g P, 251g C, 75g F (30 / 42 / 28)
Workout Day: 2,850 cal, 246g P, 323g C, 78g F (30 / 46 / 24)
The values are initial ones and once satisfied that it's a good base diet the calories will be adjusted depending how the weigh-ins go.
DoubleWide: Hello, I was getting swamped with my own information trying to put this post together. The calories excluded the workout shake and banana so would be for non-workout days, I've included the variations in this post. Basically I adjust the calories as needed to get the weight moving in the direction I'm aiming for at the time. I used to track calories religiously for years, but since trying carb cycling the article recommended trying to go by how your body feels and not so much on counting them so I only kept a basic days count and varied it depending if it was high, low or no carb day. The diet I posted wasn't so much about the quantities, more about the ratios and food sources.
banderbe: Absolutely right from the articles and posts I've read on the technology and as you say I use it purely as a tracking changes tool, it gives a ballpark figure and reference for my records.
Toremented: Yes I do warm up sets, which I said in the very next paragraph and I only do DL's once a week, I used to do them once every 2 weeks alternating with Squats, but found I recovered from DOMS far better doing them both in the same week spaced apart. This is just one of several routines I've tried, some may have been great, some may have been appalling and I'll be looking into changing that next after the diet part is corrected.
jfla32033: Hello, its all possible isn't it?
I've definitely used poor form in the past and have strived to correct that. Milos Sarcev has made some truly eye opening video clips with the Fit Show demonstrating different exercises with correct form and I've tried to put it into practise, I thoroughly recommend watching it.
Sibrek: You think reading it is bad? Writing it was a nightmare. This forum can be extremely intimidating, couple that with being swamped and lost in the sheer amount of information and data you've accumulated over the years and coming here to ask for help, its not easy if your hearts in it. Never the less the section you refer to about a 10lb weight shift was just to illustrate a point I was struggling to get across. My first proper bulk using the knowledge I had at the time yielded a 20kg or 44lb weight gain. I now judge my timing for bulking and cutting on body fat and not on scale weight.
Thank you all for taking the time to help.
All the best
Jayee.
I've definitely used poor form in the past and have strived to correct that. Milos Sarcev has made some truly eye opening video clips with the Fit Show demonstrating different exercises with correct form and I've tried to put it into practise, I thoroughly recommend watching it.
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