Intermittent Fasting for Strength Training and Fat Loss

[Death-Mobile]

...so much controversy. Is there a way to add a poll to this thread? I'm still interested to try this, but each perspective on the diet is spoken with such authority. I really don't know where I stand on it, and I have a feeling I won't until I try it for myself.

[CF10]

...so much controversy. Is there a way to add a poll to this thread? I'm still interested to try this, but each perspective on the diet is spoken with such authority. I really don't know where I stand on it, and I have a feeling I won't until I try it for myself.

Keep in mind not many people on it before still use it. Many lost muscle mass. Also keep in mind that exile-swede is googling studies that he wants to show a certain result. Finally, keep in mind that exile-swede didnt know **** about glucagon, insulin, and muscle catabolism.....and that he would go up to a 275lb pro bodybuilder and tell him to his face that the slin he shoots every day, yeah, it aint doing **** for him so he is wasting his time. But other than that......

[juice1348]

Welll, I started a thread last week about me trying this diet (IF). I have since began doing this (except for my cheat day Sunday which you all should read about in the Cheat Contest thread, it was amazing, lol). I love the feeling of being FULL and I am never really hungry in the mornings anyways, so I am able to put off food for a while and create my 8 hour window. My lifts are the same, energy the same and I look the same, BUT its only been a week.
I have read numerous studies endorsing this diet and saying it WILL work the exact same as 6 meals a day diet, BUT for every one of those studies, I have also found one that says it won't.
So far, I firmly believe that it depends on YOU and YOU alone. The six meal a day, clean diet is PROVEN and works, bottomline. Will this one work too? Maybe. Maybe not as well, maybe better. If it sounds interesting then TRY IT, it won't kill you, hahaha. I will let you know how it works for me guys.

Thanks.

[Death-Mobile]

So is it scietifically impossible to maintain/gain mass while on this diet? If the majority of people agree that it is unhealthy, and a good way to loose mass, then I will be pretty convinced to steer away from it. My problem is that I can't run anymore due to a knee injury, and I feel I'm becoming pudgy from lack of cardio. This diet seemed like a good way to buy some time until I can run again.

[crazymutha]

So is it scietifically impossible to maintain/gain mass while on this diet? If the majority of people agree that it is unhealthy, and a good way to loose mass, then I will be pretty convinced to steer away from it. My problem is that I can't run anymore due to a knee injury, and I feel I'm becoming pudgy from lack of cardio. This diet seemed like a good way to buy some time until I can run again.

What about Boxing? If my legs are still in recovery from intense training, I just hit the heavy bag...it is not necessary to do intense foot work.

[Kung Bruno]

So is it scietifically impossible to maintain/gain mass while on this diet? .

No. Whoever says that is bsing.

[exile-swede]

Keep in mind not many people on it before still use it. Many lost muscle mass. Also keep in mind that exile-swede is googling studies that he wants to show a certain result. Finally, keep in mind that exile-swede didnt know **** about glucagon, insulin, and muscle catabolism.....and that he would go up to a 275lb pro bodybuilder and tell him to his face that the slin he shoots every day, yeah, it aint doing **** for him so he is wasting his time. But other than that......

What have I done to you that gives you the right to bad-mouth me like this?

And by the way... Don't go mixing up infusion of insulin (or other hormones) with the amounts natural in the body. Mixing up 'roids in the matter makes it a completely different subject. The research I've presented here is based on non-steroid users, like myself. I'm fully aware that insulin may act anabolic in amounts far exceeding the amounts your pancreas is able to produce.

[alan aragon]

Is Matthor still on this?

[JamesDeen]

Is Matthor still on this?

yes, as far as I know... he still is making the youtube vids of his huge meals

[JamesDeen]

So is it scietifically impossible to maintain/gain mass while on this diet? If the majority of people agree that it is unhealthy, and a good way to loose mass, then I will be pretty convinced to steer away from it. My problem is that I can't run anymore due to a knee injury, and I feel I'm becoming pudgy from lack of cardio. This diet seemed like a good way to buy some time until I can run again.

just ask Martin what he did in a yrs time bulking using this method. its possible to do. IF can be used for dieting purposes, recomps, "bulking"

its all about macros in and out and manipulation

[gjohnson5]

And the guy who started this thread is not selling a book.. LOL @ your selection of "relaible" scientific information

Anyway we do know that going without can cause unwanted catabolic effects. So arguing the amount of insulin in blood as being anabolic is totally unrelated to this thead. The question is going WITHOUT insulin good for weight gain or fat loss.

The answer is no

Please don't refer to a supplement selling company (AST) as a reliable scientific source. If it's one industry who has an economical interest in this matter, it's the supplement industry (meal replacements is big business).

I'm not arguing the specific role of insulin in the body. I'm arguing the amounts needed for stimulation of protein synthesis and inhibition of muscle protein degradation.

For stimulation of protein synthesis fasting levels is sufficient:

"it is demonstrated that in healthy humans in the postabsorptive state, insulin does not stimulate muscle protein synthesis" - Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab (May 16, 2006).

"In people, it appears that it is possible to stimulate muscle protein synthesis by supplying exogenous amino acids alone while maintaining (using the insulin clamp techniques) basal blood insulin concentration at the overnight fasted level" - Experimental Physiology. 90.4 pp 427-436; January 2005

... and for inhibiting muscle protein breakdown higher levels are advantageous after physical activity, but not othervise:

"Further, the direct effect of factors on breakdown may depend on the physiological state. For example, local hyperinsulinemia suppresses accelerated muscle protein breakdown after exercise, but not normal resting breakdown." - Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2001 Dec;11 Suppl:S164-9.


"Insulin has little effect on protein synthesis in human muscle, but it has a marked inhibitory effect on protein breakdown. The amino acid simulation of anabolism is not dependent on the presence of insulin, IGF-1 (insulin-like growth factor-1) or growth hormone." - Biochem Soc Trans. 2007 Oct;35(Pt 5):1302-5.



This is also relevant:

"Insulin resistance is currently a major health problem. This may be because of a marked decrease in daily physical activity during recent decades combined with constant food abundance. This lifestyle collides with our genome, which was most likely selected in the late Paleolithic era (50,000-10,000 BC) by criteria that favored survival in an environment characterized by fluctuations between periods of feast and famine. The theory of thrifty genes states that these fluctuations are required for optimal metabolic function. We mimicked the fluctuations in eight healthy young men [25.0 +/- 0.1 yr (mean +/- SE); body mass index: 25.7 +/- 0.4 kg/m(2)] by subjecting them to intermittent fasting every second day for 20 h for 15 days. Euglycemic hyperinsulinemic (40 mU.min(-1).m(-2)) clamps were performed before and after the intervention period. Subjects maintained body weight (86.4 +/- 2.3 kg; coefficient of variation: 0.8 +/- 0.1%). Plasma free fatty acid and beta-hydroxybutyrate concentrations were 347 +/- 18 and 0.06 +/- 0.02 mM, respectively, after overnight fast but increased (P < 0.05) to 423 +/- 86 and 0.10 +/- 0.04 mM after 20-h fasting, confirming that the subjects were fasting. Insulin-mediated whole body glucose uptake rates increased from 6.3 +/- 0.6 to 7.3 +/- 0.3 mg.kg(-1).min(-1) (P = 0.03), and insulin-induced inhibition of adipose tissue lipolysis was more prominent after than before the intervention (P = 0.05). After the 20-h fasting periods, plasma adiponectin was increased compared with the basal levels before and after the intervention (5,922 +/- 991 vs. 3,860 +/- 784 ng/ml, P = 0.02). This experiment is the first in humans to show that intermittent fasting increases insulin-mediated glucose uptake rates, and the findings are compatible with the thrifty gene concept."

Effect of intermittent fasting and refeeding on insulin action in healthy men. J Appl Physiol. 2005 Dec;99(6):2128-36. Epub 2005 Jul 28.





Not by my opinion.

[gjohnson5]

This study is looking into gene expression in genes that supposedly signal muscle catabolism.
http://content.karger.com/produktedb....asp?doi=95354

Background: Skeletal muscle mass is governed by multiple IGF-1-sensitive positive regulators of muscle-specific protein synthesis (myogenic regulatory factors which includes myoD, myogenin and Myf5) and negative regulators, including the atrogenic proteins myostatin, atrogin-1 and muscle ring finger 1 (MuRF-1). The coordinated control of these myogenic and atrogenic factors in human skeletal muscle following short-term fasting is currently unknown.

I don't believe that much is known about the subject. But you can attempt to prove that since, multiple people who have tested this diet have already said otherwise...

Short term fasting does not accelerate muscle protein breakdown:

"RESULTS: There were no significant alterations in either the positive or negative regulators of muscle mass at either 15 or 40 h, when compared to gene expression measured 3 h after a meal. ... short-term fasting (40 h) fails to elicit marked alteration of the genes regulating both muscle-specific protein synthesis or atrophy. Greater periods of fasting may be required to initiate coordinated inhibition of myogenic and atrogenic gene expression."

Actions of short-term fasting on human skeletal muscle myogenic and atrogenic gene expression. Ann Nutr Metab. 2006;50(5):476-81. Epub 2006 Aug 24.

I would like you to prove the anabolic effects of growth hormone. I know from experience that growth hormone does surprisingly little for skeletal muscle anabolism. Also fasting causes downregulation of IGF-1...
In other words I think your hypothesis is very wrong

The effect is probably mediated by an increase in the serum level of growth hormone during the fast:

"The metabolic response to fasting involves a series of hormonal and metabolic adaptations leading to protein conservation. An increase in the serum level of growth hormone (GH) during fasting has been well substantiated. ... These results demonstrate that GH?possibly by maintenance of circulating concentrations of free IGF-I?is a decisive component of protein conservation during fasting and provide evidence that the underlying mechanism involves a decrease in muscle protein breakdown."

The Protein-Retaining Effects of Growth Hormone During Fasting Involve Inhibition of Muscle-Protein Breakdown. Diabetes 50:96-104, 2001

[exile-swede]

And the guy who started this thread is not selling a book.. LOL @ your selection of "relaible" scientific information

Have i quoted him, or refered to anything he has said..? No.

Anyway we do know that going without can cause unwanted catabolic effects. So arguing the amount of insulin in blood as being anabolic is totally unrelated to this thead.

How is this unrelated to this thread?

The question is going WITHOUT insulin good for weight gain or fat loss.

The answer is no

And fasting for a short period like 16 hours makes you "go without insulin", or insulinresistent..? No.

"This experiment is the first in humans to show that intermittent fasting increases insulin-mediated glucose uptake rates, and the findings are compatible with the thrifty gene concept." - J Appl Physiol. 2005 Dec;99(6):2128-36. Epub 2005 Jul 28.

[exile-swede]

But you can attempt to prove that since, multiple people who have tested this diet have already said otherwise...

My own experience is more worth for me.

I would like you to prove the anabolic effects of growth hormone. I know from experience that growth hormone does surprisingly little for skeletal muscle anabolism.

Know from experience = you infused growth hormone?

Have I claimed growth hormone to be anabolic (i.e. by it self, not in interaction with other hormones)?

[gjohnson5]

What you need to understand is that "steroid users" are considered a counter culture for the msot part and so you should not be surprised that there are studies that say

1. Insulin does not pose anabolic effects
2. Fasting enhances growth hormone release

Because the FDA , CDC , NIH, WHO (forgot the AMA) and others have a political agenda to deter people from injecting these drugs.

I wouldn't take these studies which are biased in nature and use them as some sort of agenda towards IF.

Anyway going without food means there in no blood sugar elevation during that time, hence one is hypoinsulinemic. I will also let you prove the endogenous blood levels of insulin during a 16h fast. My belief is that it is not enough to prevent protein gluconeogenesis and skeletal muscle catabolism, so it's irrelevent from my perspective.

Have i quoted him, or refered to anything he has said..? No.



How is this unrelated to this thread?



And fasting for a short period like 16 hours makes you "go without insulin", or insulinresistent..? No.

"This experiment is the first in humans to show that intermittent fasting increases insulin-mediated glucose uptake rates, and the findings are compatible with the thrifty gene concept." - J Appl Physiol. 2005 Dec;99(6):2128-36. Epub 2005 Jul 28.

[gjohnson5]

Know from experience = you infused growth hormone?

Maybe , maybe not....

Have I claimed growth hormone to be anabolic (i.e. by it self, not in interaction with other hormones)?

The effect is probably mediated by an increase in the serum level of growth hormone during the fast:

Yes you did. You read a study which told you that GH is elevated during a fast (as opposed to being fed) and believed it because it said what you wanted to hear. The same study made no assertion of growth hormone levels when fed or even after a meal.

[RU4A69]

Keep in mind not many people on it before still use it. Many lost muscle mass.

Well, W8isGr8 and I have been eating this way for YEARS. We're still on it

[CF10]

What have I done to you that gives you the right to bad-mouth me like this?

And by the way... Don't go mixing up infusion of insulin (or other hormones) with the amounts natural in the body. Mixing up 'roids in the matter makes it a completely different subject. The research I've presented here is based on non-steroid users, like myself. I'm fully aware that insulin may act anabolic in amounts far exceeding the amounts your pancreas is able to produce.

Bad mouth you? No, I stated the facts. YOU didnt know about glucagon and insulin and catabolism. YOU made the statement "Well you'll just release some glucagon and breakdown stored glycogen and voila, steady blood glucose"...and that's borderline moronic. It is the equivalent of "If you dont eat for a while, your body will breakdown skeletal muscle for energy and voila, you wont starve to death". You also said insulin wasnt anabolic. That's quite possibly the dumbest **** I've ever heard and it should be put in my signature for comic relief. You dont need supraphysiological levels for the hormone to be considered anabolic, certainly not. And finally, the last reason I dont like/respect you, is because you got an answer from me that you didnt like or understand, so you spent the next 20 minutes googling a bunch of bull**** that again, YOU DONT UNDERSTAND, and post it up like you know what the hell you are talking about.

I have never once said that anything is impossible on this diet. I said from day one I dont think it is optimal for bodybuilding. I said it would be fine for just losing weight, or maintaining what you've got, which is what some people want. I also never said you cant gain mass on it. But it isnt optimal in my opinion and nobody's anecdotal evidence can change my mind on that one because who's to say they couldnt have had more success doing it another way.

[gjohnson5]

Not to mention

LOL @ your squat and deadlift videos. I will neve lie about the weights I lift to pormote an agenda.

You ever get that fixed???

NO

[Sibrek]

I'm not on steroids genius, and never have been. My test is lower than the avg male. I destroyed my body with a horrible diet, lol where do you see that? You searched my posts apparently and read that I got sick in February and I THOUGHT that the cause might be that I had miscalculated my fat macros and was getting less than I should've. I fixed the problem, upped fat, and waited it out for 5 more months. My bloodwork was bad at that point, but not from any 2 month diet that occurred 5 months ago. Get your facts straight before you make a post like this one.

Yeah...I was curious on what his assumptions were based on? Mature to point out someone and bash them to try to defend your scam of a diet plan which is little more than "Oh you can skip breakfast and make ok gains"

[Sibrek]

One more thing, how do I usually perform my cuts. Please enlighten everyone...me included.

You probably eat breakfast. Evil

[MattyH7688]

You probably eat breakfast. Evil

breakfast makes u fat and lose muscle.. didnt u know

[Sibrek]

breakfast makes u fat and lose muscle.. didnt u know

No breakfast=lean gains.


Being too lazy to follow a set diet plan and binging on whatever you want in a 2 hour time frame= lean muscle gains

[juice1348]

breakfast makes u fat and lose muscle.. didnt u know

Although I agree partially with ALL the intelligent arguments, dont start being morons either. You know this isnt what the diet is all about. Its not as simple as "eat what you want and just skip breakfast". You know that, I know that, come on.

I got my best results with 6 meals a day, all day, every 2 to 3 hours, BUT, like I said, arguments can be made for and against every diet. Some people love Atkins or Keto or whatever...its what works for YOU.

[CF10]

OH and Martin one more thing...my blood, it showed a "smokin hot lipid profile" according to one of the docs I saw. His exact words were "I'm jealous". And if you knew anything about cholesterol, you'd understand that my minor fat macro miscalculation which lasted for about 2 months tops and 5 months prior to the blood draw, had nothing to do with my low testosterone levels. If you wanna see the millions of labs, I'll fax em over to you so you can see just how messed up they are. Maybe then you'll change your mind about my 2 month minor error being the cause.

[Martin Berkhan]

Not to mention

LOL @ your squat and deadlift videos. I will neve lie about the weights I lift to pormote an agenda.

You ever get that fixed???

NO

You are a jealous and sad man, that doesn't seem to be much liked by anyone here, nor I take it anyone in real life either. I have posted pics on the weights used on my site. Fact remains that I, as a natural, can outlift you on any day, despite you pumping your body full of hormones. I can understand that this is disheartening to you. After this post I will ignore you; you're unable to hold an argument, nor do you have anything else of use to say.

I am not selling a book either. It is not even written yet. I've been sharing a lot of information for free, hoping to shatter some conceptions about bodybuilding nutrition and present an alternative approach to some people that might be interested in such.

[Sibrek]

Although I agree partially with ALL the intelligent arguments, dont start being morons either. You know this isnt what the diet is all about. Its not as simple as "eat what you want and just skip breakfast". You know that, I know that, come on.

I got my best results with 6 meals a day, all day, every 2 to 3 hours, BUT, like I said, arguments can be made for and against every diet. Some people love Atkins or Keto or whatever...its what works for YOU.

You have to eat PRETTY ****ty to go much over your cals or not get good enough macros eating within 2 hours...that's what makes this so easy. According to this diet plan, eat whatever junk you want, have 9 protein scoops on the side of a 12" dominos pizza and get good gains...

Now if you ate a slice and a scoop every 3 hours it would work a little better...but still.

[Sibrek]

OH and Martin one more thing...my blood, it showed a "smokin hot lipid profile" according to one of the docs I saw. His exact words were "I'm jealous". And if you knew anything about cholesterol, you'd understand that my minor fat macro miscalculation which lasted for about 2 months tops and 5 months prior to the blood draw, had nothing to do with my low testosterone levels. If you wanna see the millions of labs, I'll fax em over to you so you can see just how messed up they are. Maybe then you'll change your mind about my 2 month minor error being the cause.

Im curious what the low fat levels did to you and why someone would attack your personal health....

LOL YOU GOT AIDS LOSER

[Martin Berkhan]

According to this diet plan, eat whatever junk you want, have 9 protein scoops on the side of a 12" dominos pizza and get good gains...

You know nothing.

[juice1348]

You have to eat PRETTY ****ty to go much over your cals or not get good enough macros eating within 2 hours...that's what makes this so easy. According to this diet plan, eat whatever junk you want, have 9 protein scoops on the side of a 12" dominos pizza and get good gains...

Now if you ate a slice and a scoop every 3 hours it would work a little better...but still.

From what I read the diet gives you an 8 hour window to eat...16 hour fast...so for example noon til 8pm WITH the bulk of the calories coming post workout, no?

I don't know, Im not saying I 100% agree with this, or even agree at all, but I think it may work for some, may not for other, ya know? I would like to try it and see for myself what works the best for me and my body.